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Post by Not expert enough on Jan 15, 2018 17:31:54 GMT
Can any knowledgeable farrier advise me. My farrier doesn't believe in rasping the front wall down when he shoes my pony. Pony definitely has a long term foot problem (laminitis originally) and needs constant care. Farrier says he likes to keep strength in the wall, does not rasp down and consequently shoes sits back slightly from the front wall. I do not see myself as expert in any type of shoeing and would just like a second opinion but am not wishing to change farriers, certainly when I believe my farrier is certainly more expert than I am. Thoughts please.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 15, 2018 19:04:23 GMT
I'm not a farrier, but mine has recovered two ponies of mine that had had laminitis with pedal bone rotation by correct showing and trimming. He dressed the front of the foot parallel with the pastern angle each time, which involved getting the shoe correctly on the foot, then rasping the overlapping wall back to the shoe. In both these ponies that left a half moon of dead black laminae exposed at the front of the foot that had been destroyed by the laminitis, which was never a problem. He did not of course try to nail the shoe on through that part, but only where the hoof wall was intact. The front of the pedal bone, when viewed from the side, should be parallel to the pastern angle, and in time as the hoof grew down the pedal bone recovered its correct angulation.
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Post by Philippa on Jan 15, 2018 19:31:09 GMT
I’m with sarahp as I’ve also had 2 with lammi. Both rotated and both cane sound from my farriers corrective shoeing and trimming. I’ve never had anything that hasn’t been dressed once shod or trimmed.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 15, 2018 22:09:27 GMT
Maybe this is what yours is trying to do - why not ask him to talk it through with you?
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Post by Not expert enough on Jan 16, 2018 15:29:21 GMT
Maybe this is what yours is trying to do - why not ask him to talk it through with you? He has talked this through with me and told me that he leaves the wall alone as much as he can to keep the strength in the hoof and although it might not look as pretty as the hooves of other farriers it is better for the pony. He certainly believes too many farriers over rasp the front wall to achieve a prettier foot. I do have a lot of respect for him as he has worked hard over the least few years to get this pony sound and back in the show ring and I have explored on the internet and have found support for this theory. I do know that the pony has never lost any shoes and has not suffered from the lost shoes and broken hooves that I see on other animals whose farriers have rasped the hoof back hard. I just wanted opinions from any farriers who might read H G as I do not see the practice much around here. Another difference I see between farriers is the type of front shoe used. Some use a single toe clip whilst others use side clips. Must be place for some serious research.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 16, 2018 17:42:56 GMT
I think mine used two clips on the front shoes when correcting rotated pedal bones. I haven't come across your chap's method but am not a farrier and wouldn't claim to be expert - haven't had any shod for years either as just breeding now. I think I would worry that the overlapping hoof might break off? Mine never did get broken hooves, but I put that down to diet in the main, as I've fed balancers since they were first developed. Fantastic for natives!
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bugs
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Post by bugs on Jan 16, 2018 19:43:50 GMT
I think I may know what you mean. Our farrier did this to on a pony recovering from a thorn which went through the white line and into her foot leading to significant foot issues. If you pm me your e-mail address can send you some photos?
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Post by Not expert enough on Jan 20, 2018 16:58:11 GMT
I think mine used two clips on the front shoes when correcting rotated pedal bones. I haven't come across your chap's method but am not a farrier and wouldn't claim to be expert - haven't had any shod for years either as just breeding now. I think I would worry that the overlapping hoof might break off? Mine never did get broken hooves, but I put that down to diet in the main, as I've fed balancers since they were first developed. Fantastic for natives! Interesting, thanks for your reply. The 2 clips are not for any pedal bone issues, it just seems to be a fashion. I would say around 50% of front shoes around here use side clips I wonder if this is a national practice.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 20, 2018 17:19:05 GMT
If I'm right it would have been to avoid having clips where there wasn't a full hoof wall, just dead laminae.
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Post by Seriously on Jan 21, 2018 14:56:19 GMT
Your farrier has trained for years to be able to touch your horse’s foot and is regulated by a strict governing body. My suggestion would be to start respecting the experience and knowledge he has by listening to him.
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Post by Philippa on Jan 21, 2018 17:41:24 GMT
Your farrier has trained for years to be able to touch your horse’s foot and is regulated by a strict governing body. My suggestion would be to start respecting the experience and knowledge he has by listening to him. There are good and bad in trades in all waks of life and when you are paying for professional expertise you should expect to recieve it, the meer fact that the OP has asked the question raisies the fact that they are not 100% confident in what their farrier has sugested and why shouldnt they ask for reassurance?? I also am no farrier and am fortunate to trust mine implicitly and have done for some 15+ years but being on a fairly busy livery yard where there are several different farriers ive seen some god awful practices. I have also seen quarter clips in front as a fashion with newly qualified farriers and young impressionable girls!!!! We used no clips when shoeing our laminitic ponies and the feet are always dressed to remove the dead and damaged hoof wall. Give the OP a break, they are surely only wanting the best treatment for their pony. Its an awful position to be in.
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Post by poop on Jan 23, 2018 1:44:36 GMT
Id have thought the only thing that would support a rotated pedal bone was a heart bar shoe such as an imprint shoe which ive always sworn by for the most rapid recovery of a serious bout of laminitis. Quarter clips certainly wont help a rotated pedal bone. OP in my experience some farriers are afraid of correctly dressing a foot of a pony thats had lami For fear of making it sore. Id have said the front wall should be rasped back together with the heels lowered if its to regain correct foot angles - but laminae need to be stable at this point. My farrier would rasp and check the wall, once it started to yield under pressure he’d stop. Talk to your vet and see who they use as their remedial farrier, maybe they would see to your ponies feet for you
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Post by Philippa on Jan 23, 2018 7:00:19 GMT
Absolutely rthat poop.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 23, 2018 8:35:52 GMT
Good point re asking about a remedial farrier poop.
I was talking about after the active laminitis has gone, as a rehab technique to correct pedal bones that have sustained some degree of rotation when it is stable. I very carefully said "had had laminitis with pedal bone rotation" NOT shoeing for a pony with active laminitis to aid recovery, where as you say a heart bar shoe or the like to try to prevent rotation in the first place would be desirable.
As for dressing the foot - it was explained to me that the plan is to lower the heels, which is the important bit, and rasp the front of the foot back, assuming that the pony has not foundered completely but still has some attachment of the laminae around the sides of the foot, to bring the angle of the front of the pedal bone parallel with that of the pastern. My farrier was happy to go into the dead and not in any way sensitive old laminae while doing this, which would leave a half moon of dead laminae showing at the toe, which was never a problem in any way except to look odd.. This is where the quarter clips came in, I only think, not 100% sure, I could be wrong as I said above, to avoid having a toe clip where there was only dead laminae instead of solid wall. Of course thy could have no impact whatsoever on active laminitis.
I hope this makes it clear. My farrier did it extremely successfully on two ridden ponies (one came back to me with a history of laminitis while away, the other after a steroid injection and recovery period here) many years ago, both of which returned to full function. The first went on to jump round the first HOYS M&M WHP course in his next home and jumped anything with no sign of a problem with his feet for the rest of his time here and in his next home, but sadly got another attack of laminitis two homes further on and had the foot resection treatment which was current at the time done. He never jumped as well again.
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Post by Not expert enough on Jan 23, 2018 17:27:30 GMT
Your farrier has trained for years to be able to touch your horse’s foot and is regulated by a strict governing body. My suggestion would be to start respecting the experience and knowledge he has by listening to him. I think you have missed the point. I do have enormous respect for my farrier who has worked hard to get this pony sound, and I have no intention of changing - which I would if i were being critical. I am just interested and there is no harm in that. As regards the side clips on front shoes this is nothing at all to do with laminitis. I see side clips on about 50% of all front shoes and this is no matter what - hunters, show ponies, jumpers, youngstock - everything. I have only seen this in about the last 5 - 8 years and just wondering why. Why do some farriers use side clips whilst some use the traditional single toe clip? It is nothing to do with remedial shoeing as these are all sound working animals, seems to be a fashion but there must be some research behind it. Just interested -nothing wrong with that I hope.
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kaya
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Post by kaya on Jan 23, 2018 18:09:43 GMT
Mine has side clips on the fronts as he has a masters degree in ripping them of!!
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 23, 2018 18:35:20 GMT
As for side clips - which I made clear I can't remember for certain if he used them or not, it was 25 years ago or so and definitely NOT a fashion choice but for a practical reason!
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Post by Not expert enough on Jan 23, 2018 19:18:57 GMT
As for side clips - which I made clear I can't remember for certain if he used them or not, it was 25 years ago or so and definitely NOT a fashion choice but for a practical reason! There must be a reason, I am sure. Very interesting as I had never seen them till about 8 years ago. The theory on one toe clips for fronts was to avoid brushing injuries, and the theory on rear side clips was to avoid overreach injuries - so I remember from my Pony Club days many. many moons ago. But things do change as research is undertaken. I actually remember using old engine oil as hoof oil but that was proved to be a bad thing through research. I am open to any new ideas.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 24, 2018 19:27:09 GMT
IF he used side clips, which I'm not sure about, it was to avoid having a toe clip where the half moon of dead laminae at the front of the foot was, as I've previously said. I'm beginning to wish I hadn't tried to help you now!
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Post by Not expert enough on Jan 25, 2018 16:02:32 GMT
IF he used side clips, which I'm not sure about, it was to avoid having a toe clip where the half moon of dead laminae at the front of the foot was, as I've previously said. I'm beginning to wish I hadn't tried to help you now! Sorry my fault I must not have made myself clear enough, do appreciate all your comments - please don't give up helping it is really useful. The side clip query is totally separate, nothing to do with not rasping the front wall on my pony, it was a completely different comment. The farrier does not use either toe or side clips on the shoes for my pony for exactly the reasons you say. It is all the other none laminitics I see where there is a mix of side and toe clips, dependent upon the farrier. Can understand where a horse frequently loses front shoes, but this is not the reason, just seems to be a preference by some farriers. While I was asking advice re the rasping thought I would ask about the clips, just me wondering, very innocent - no axes to grind. Thanks for your comments sarahp keep up the good work.
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Post by lccbf on Jan 25, 2018 21:21:27 GMT
Your farrier has trained for years to be able to touch your horse’s foot and is regulated by a strict governing body. My suggestion would be to start respecting the experience and knowledge he has by listening to him. Have to say I don't agree with this. Having had a farrier lame a 4 year old with bad shoeing over a period of 6months and do unrepairable damage I think it's right to question if your not sure or get a second opinion, I wish I had. Not all people with the appropriate training are the same, there are good and bad in all professions. Even my vets are astonished at the difference in my horse having removed shoes and he's now being trimmed by their farrier.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 25, 2018 22:50:26 GMT
I apologise for sounding tetchy, the two queries came together in my experience so in my comments and I just seem to have had to repeat that fact all the way down the thread!
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chocaholic not logged in
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Post by chocaholic not logged in on Jan 26, 2018 13:36:39 GMT
My lad has his shoes set back to aid rollover .
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