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Post by Steward on Mar 21, 2018 19:37:49 GMT
It has recently been pointed out by letter by the NPS that Stewards will have to provide their own insurance as the society will no longer cover them going forward. Additionally their current insurance has not been providing cover for those over 75 yrs.
It appears this has opened a large can of worms as others are checking their insurances and may now have the same issue.
My personal opinion is this will very quickly have a massive impact on the ability to hold shows. I cannot see many current stewards paying for their own insurance, young potential stewards going to the trouble of sorting insurance and ad hoc/ on the day stewards having insurance in place "just in case".
Stewards are as important as Judges. Shows do not function without then. I feel it is a kick in the teeth to loyal supporters who drive miles, stand up all day in all weather's for little if any financial compensation, to be expected to purchase their own insurance for the pleasure of helping a Society function..
I am interested in others thoughts on this issue. Plus it may be worth checking if you are insured by the relevant shows before you agree to steward next time
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Post by Philippa on Mar 21, 2018 20:22:20 GMT
Jeez that’s shocking!!! Out of interest as an individual with my own liability insurance through NFU for my ponies and myself, would this cover me to steward as it covers me as an exhibitor??
Just wondered as most exhibitors will have liability insurance but not sure if this would cover you to steward.
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Post by viking on Mar 21, 2018 21:38:31 GMT
I cannot imagine that news will be met with a round of applause !
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Post by Steward on Mar 22, 2018 6:05:31 GMT
Jeez that’s shocking!!! Out of interest as an individual with my own liability insurance through NFU for my ponies and myself, would this cover me to steward as it covers me as an exhibitor?? Just wondered as most exhibitors will have liability insurance but not sure if this would cover you to steward. Those I know of mostly do not exhibit any more. It is concerning to me that my soon to be 76 year old mother, whom drives all over the country to steward for many societies, has not been insured!!!. Many are frantically checking household insurance as some carry PL cover. Mum is stewarding at PUK this weekend. I hope they cover their stewards regardless of age! FYI mum has said she will not buy her own PL insurance. She can little afford paying petrol, and often her own accom, let alone insurance when doing a society a favour!
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Post by ponymad79 on Mar 22, 2018 6:21:26 GMT
How will the nps police this will the stewards have to show they are insured before they will be allowed in the ring ?
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Post by janetbushell on Mar 22, 2018 6:22:38 GMT
I have not received this letter as I am no longer a member of NPS & no longer steward at their championships so I may be completely wrong, HOWEVER I would suspect that this issue refers to "Personal Accident" (NOT PL) insurance as the NPS will be legally obliged to hold Third Party & Employers Liability insurance to run their events.
This type of insurance is usually for named individuals due to the costs involved. I have this type of insurance through my NFU horse insurance, for myself & my girls, due to the nature of dealing with horses LOL.
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Post by Philippa on Mar 22, 2018 7:05:38 GMT
I have not received this letter as I am no longer a member of NPS & no longer steward at their championships so I may be completely wrong, HOWEVER I would suspect that this issue refers to "Personal Accident" (NOT PL) insurance as the NPS will be legally obliged to hold Third Party & Employers Liability insurance to run their events. This type of insurance is usually for named individuals due to the costs involved. I have this type of insurance through my NFU horse insurance, for myself & my girls, due to the nature of dealing with horses LOL. Ah yes Janet. On lookingbi have liability and personal accident in my NFU insurance. OP. I understand your concerns regarding your mother and sadly feel the only solution is to purchase the insurance or cease stewarding. This is unfortunately the nature of society nowadays. I feel we may loose some exceptional stewards.
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Post by gillwales on Mar 22, 2018 7:43:39 GMT
Personally I would not act as a Steward unless fully insured, it is the least that any show or society can do to protect those who give up their time for free. If there are insufficient funds to do this then the show should not be held. I agree with Janet Bushell that anyone holding a Show would have to have Public Liability Insurance and hopefully the NPS will confirm this.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Mar 22, 2018 9:29:10 GMT
I have not received this letter as I am no longer a member of NPS & no longer steward at their championships so I may be completely wrong, HOWEVER I would suspect that this issue refers to "Personal Accident" (NOT PL) insurance as the NPS will be legally obliged to hold Third Party & Employers Liability insurance to run their events. This type of insurance is usually for named individuals due to the costs involved. I have this type of insurance through my NFU horse insurance, for myself & my girls, due to the nature of dealing with horses LOL. Janet is correct in regard to the legal obligation for shows and events to hold Third Party Accident Insurance. it is worth checking your own (Personal) Insurance policies, too. Although retired from running my own yard/producing, I coach on occasion and therefore maintain my (also, like Janet, NFU) 'Business' policy. In addition, as a BHS Gold Member, like many others I am also covered via that route. Just as well, as three seasons ago I incurred a nasty shoulder injury whilst stewarding (damaged by an upset and unruly animal) and another, much more recently, whilst working a temporary contract for the local Council. Edited to add - to be honest, surely it is an unwise move to skimp and NOT hold some sort of personal accident insurance - even if you don't ever act as a steward??
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Post by viking on Mar 22, 2018 9:35:08 GMT
I have been informed that only senior stewards of 70 years and above will have to self insure, (NPS are looking into it.) It does not apply to other stewards .
Maybe the guest Steward has a wrong impression ? Perhaps someone could clarify.
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Post by Steward on Mar 22, 2018 10:09:43 GMT
I have been informed that only senior stewards of 70 years and above will have to self insure, (NPS are looking into it.) It does not apply to other stewards . Maybe the guest Steward has a wrong impression ? Perhaps someone could clarify. Thanks Viking...it appears as I said, it has prompted others to check the insurance they carry regarding age.. It has been stated: Can I just mention the nps values (my mum) who works tirelessly at our shows including the championship show and is extremely experienced however the insurance company nps use have specified this just recently upon renewal. Have a word with the office and see what has been recommended x As many stewards are of the upper age limit these days, they will lose a lot of knowledgeable people. Sad way to kill off what remains of showing 😔 IMO
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Post by CarolineNelson on Mar 22, 2018 11:07:37 GMT
I have been informed that only senior stewards of 70 years and above will have to self insure, (NPS are looking into it.) It does not apply to other stewards . Maybe the guest Steward has a wrong impression ? Perhaps someone could clarify. Thanks Viking...it appears as I said, it has prompted others to check the insurance they carry regarding age.. It has been stated: Can I just mention the nps values (my mum) who works tirelessly at our shows including the championship show and is extremely experienced however the insurance company nps use have specified this just recently upon renewal. Have a word with the office and see what has been recommended x As many stewards are of the upper age limit these days, they will lose a lot of knowledgeable people.
Sad way to kill off what remains of showing 😔 IMO[/b] I'm quoting, in bold, your last two paragraphs. It is indeed true that many Stewards are of the 'upper age'. In many cases, most probably because they have time, being retired or semi-retired from business/work commitments. It is fortunate that they also still have the enthusiasm and, crucially, the survival mechanism! If more young people could give up even say half a day, then progress could be made. But, there are some excellent young Stewards who come forward to help, from various Societies. As much as I'd like to, I'm not going to name names in case I miss anyone out, but you are an absolute credit and it would be fantastic if you could persuade others to do likewise! On the other hand, sometimes I've had the opportunity for young (teenage, sensible, responsible people) to accompany me when stewarding. Most are very warmly accepted, which is just how it should be. But, on occasion, shockingly, I've had 'senior' stewards and even Judges saying along the lines of - "I'm not working with that 'child' - they (the global "they") can't be trusted etc. - etc." How unbelievably negative and excruciatingly bossy is that!!
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nps
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Post by nps on Mar 22, 2018 14:31:37 GMT
The National Pony Society wishes to clarify incorrect and extremely misleading comments that are appearing on social media.
There is no question of the appreciation that the National Pony Society has for their stewards, volunteers and judges (whatever their age). It is wholly correct that showing relies on the fabulous efforts that these volunteers bring to the sport.
However, notwithstanding that, we also have a duty to our volunteers to highlight that the current insurance that the NPS and NPS Areas have in situ does not cover volunteers over the age of 75. This is not something that the NPS, or indeed some of the other societies that this has affected, are happy about – but this is coming directly from the insurance industry.
This in no way means that the NPS is ageist – far from it. We have an enormous amount of respect for our senior judges and stewards who are helpful in passing on their knowledge to the next generation and are more than happy, and grateful, to have them on board the team.
The NPS have been trying to source a new supplier who can take on all our insurances and extend the Area show insurance to include all volunteers. This is very much still on going and is being looked at by the NPS Staff and Council.
The NPS have not said shows cannot have stewards and volunteers over the age of 75. It is merely to make them aware that they are not insured currently – which is the correct thing to do.
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Post by Steward on Mar 22, 2018 14:49:31 GMT
Thank you for responding and clarification
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Post by janetbushell on Mar 22, 2018 15:34:48 GMT
The National Pony Society wishes to clarify incorrect and extremely misleading comments that are appearing on social media. There is no question of the appreciation that the National Pony Society has for their stewards, volunteers and judges (whatever their age). It is wholly correct that showing relies on the fabulous efforts that these volunteers bring to the sport. However, notwithstanding that, we also have a duty to our volunteers to highlight that the current insurance that the NPS and NPS Areas have in situ does not cover volunteers over the age of 75. This is not something that the NPS, or indeed some of the other societies that this has affected, are happy about – but this is coming directly from the insurance industry. This in no way means that the NPS is ageist – far from it. We have an enormous amount of respect for our senior judges and stewards who are helpful in passing on their knowledge to the next generation and are more than happy, and grateful, to have them on board the team. The NPS have been trying to source a new supplier who can take on all our insurances and extend the Area show insurance to include all volunteers. This is very much still on going and is being looked at by the NPS Staff and Council. The NPS have not said shows cannot have stewards and volunteers over the age of 75. It is merely to make them aware that they are not insured currently – which is the correct thing to do. But NPS they must be covered by Public Liability insurance surely - in the same way that spectators at your shows would be?
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Post by Steward on Mar 22, 2018 15:42:28 GMT
Just heard SEWPC now have insurance in place with no age limit attached. Well done SEWPC Society
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nps
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Post by nps on Mar 23, 2018 9:49:48 GMT
The NPS would like to apologise for the recent confusion over insurance for stewards, judges and officials at NPS Shows. The only insurance affected by any age restrictions relates to personal accident cover. We are currently working closely with our insurance providers and we hope to have a resolution shortly. We will inform all members as soon as we have an update.
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Post by the showing register on Mar 23, 2018 18:41:49 GMT
The Showing Register has stewards and officials insurance and no upper age limits . All stewards and helpers (who come under the heading volunteers) are most welcome whatever age you are !
This age thing must be something new as lots of volunteers at say the Olympics are over 70.
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Post by gillwales on Mar 23, 2018 21:32:51 GMT
The Showing Register has stewards and officials insurance and no upper age limits . All stewards and helpers (who come under the heading volunteers) are most welcome whatever age you are ! This age thing must be something new as lots of volunteers at say the Olympics are over 70. Maybe you could pass on the name of your insurance company to the NPS so everyone can benefit. I do recall that the BSPS also had problems covering older Judges sometime ago. I am not sure if this has changed
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Post by janetbushell on Mar 24, 2018 5:55:53 GMT
The Showing Register has stewards and officials insurance and no upper age limits . All stewards and helpers (who come under the heading volunteers) are most welcome whatever age you are ! This age thing must be something new as lots of volunteers at say the Olympics are over 70. The NPS are referring to personal accident insurance - does TSR have this for their judges, stewards & volunteers?
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Post by the showing register on Mar 24, 2018 9:46:36 GMT
Well Janet I will have to ask Sarah as she is the guru on all things insurance but by personal accident if you mean a steward having an accident and hurting themselves at a show and we are negligent then yes if we are not negligent then I think no they are probably not covered.
Thats what I think and I would imagine that is the normal cover most shows have but I will ask her on Monday I could be wrong and will update you.
I rather feel this might have been a storm in a teacup ?
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Post by janetbushell on Mar 24, 2018 11:02:50 GMT
Well Janet I will have to ask Sarah as she is the guru on all things insurance but by personal accident if you mean a steward having an accident and hurting themselves at a show and we are negligent then yes if we are not negligent then I think no they are probably not covered. Thats what I think and I would imagine that is the normal cover most shows have but I will ask her on Monday I could be wrong and will update you. I rather feel this might have been a storm in a teacup ? I would assume your insurance is the same as NPS etc have ie Public Liability & Employers liability Personal accident is non fault insurance covering specific individuals & this is what the NPS can not offer at the moment to officials over a certain age. What you describe is your employers &/or public liability insurance which EVERY society has, and every show should have (although I actually doubt that some do when run by private individuals who simply hire premises - these shows would not be covered by the venue's own insurance) Some companies do cover their employees for this but usually as a "benefit" of their remuneration package
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Post by the showing register on Mar 24, 2018 12:13:42 GMT
So it must be a good thing that they offer this extra insurance ? I dont think people should be put off stewarding if shows dont hold it. Have you got it for NCPA ?
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Post by CarolineNelson on Mar 24, 2018 13:53:39 GMT
Might "negligent"/"negligence" be discussed in further detail?
For (basic) example - to set a scene - a Steward is carrying out their (Voluntary) duties as requested by said show or event.
Due to inappropriate handling/training of an exhibitors animal, a subsequent accident ensued and said "Steward" becomes injured. The Steward was doing nothing out of place. The Show Organisers had "assumed" that the role was 'safe'. Who is the negligent party? - The Show Organiser? almost 100%, this person/these persons would not be present at the immediate time of the 'accident'. - The Steward? / was carrying out the duties as required at the time of the 'accident'. - The Handler/person responsible for the animal? Here is where my personal 'buck' stops, as most, at better organised shows and events, will sign a disclaimer which debars the Organisers from liability following an accident which was not the fault of the Organiser. - So, the 'accident' is very probably caused by those in charge of the animal. They, however, will contest this to the hilt.
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Post by janetbushell on Mar 24, 2018 18:07:57 GMT
So it must be a good thing that they offer this extra insurance ? I dont think people should be put off stewarding if shows dont hold it. Have you got it for NCPA ? I would have to check our policy Gail. I do know we changed insurers this year as our previous underwriters stopped offering the type of insurance that equine events required & we now have greater cover for all the variety of things held under the auspices of the NCPA. Also to add that sometimes when employers offer their workers personal accident cover this can be a taxable perk
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Post by janetbushell on Mar 24, 2018 18:19:47 GMT
Might "negligent"/"negligence" be discussed in further detail? For (basic) example - to set a scene - a Steward is carrying out their ( Voluntary) duties as requested by said show or event. Due to inappropriate handling/training of an exhibitors animal, a subsequent accident ensued and said "Steward" becomes injured. The Steward was doing nothing out of place. The Show Organisers had "assumed" that the role was 'safe'. Who is the negligent party? - The Show Organiser? almost 100%, this person/these persons would not be present at the immediate time of the 'accident'. - The Steward? / was carrying out the duties as required at the time of the 'accident'. - The Handler/person responsible for the animal? Here is where my personal 'buck' stops, as most, at better organised shows and events, will sign a disclaimer which debars the Organisers from liability following an accident which was not the fault of the Organiser. - So, the 'accident' is very probably caused by those in charge of the animal. They, however, will contest this to the hilt. I think you will find that the owner of the animal is the party at fault in this scenario Caroline which is why most schedules/rules suggest exhibititors have insurance. All insurance companies will only accept liability if there is no one else to claim from & their client can be proved to have been at fault.
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Post by roseview on Mar 24, 2018 19:21:23 GMT
TSR does not offer any insurance for its judges unless judging at one of their shows/events, unlike NPS which does. Judges also have to confirm that they are under 70 years of age so perhaps that has some relevance on the cover that is provided.
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Post by the showing register on Mar 24, 2018 19:51:09 GMT
TSR does not offer any insurance for its judges unless judging at one of their shows/events, unlike NPS which does. Judges also have to confirm that they are under 70 years of age so perhaps that has some relevance on the cover that is provided. Quite correct and the reason is that we do not charge a judges membership fee. All judges are automatically members foc and as you say covered at our own events. Judges over 70 years are still covered but we need to supply numbers. Its an admin thing they have to say they are fit for purpose !
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Post by sjw87 on Mar 24, 2018 20:21:12 GMT
In order for someone to claim compensation following an injury or loss, they have to prove that: a duty of care was owed; the duty of care was breached; and that the injury/loss resulted from that breach.
I work in health and safety although don't have any professional involvement of an equine nature at present.
However, if an animal injures someone it is possible that a handler/rider could claim that the show organisers were negligent depending on the circumstances. For example, if the animal spooked into a steward because of a loud display/funfair next to the ring, or hurt a pedestrian in inadequate (or badly controlled) horsewalks, or kicked a horse/person as crowding of ring entrances/exits wasn't prevented, or a child fell off because the first ridden class was next to the hunt relay, or the steward/judge was kicked as the ring was simply too small for the number of horses. The list goes on and it would be up to the show organisers to prove that they put all reasonably practicable controls in place to then put the blame onto the handler/rider.
Bear in mind too that legally you have to be seen to be enforcing your rules. How many show organisers state that all animals must be covered by public liability insurance but have never asked for proof of insurance? An injured person kicked by an uninsured animal could claim negligence of the show organisers for failing to complete any due diligence. One show locally to me does ask to see proof of insurance for stallions and it's interesting to see which competitors choose not to compete there!
It is also worth noting that signing disclaimers don't always stand up in court as you can't just pass off on your legal duty to provide a safe environment. The costs involved with fighting these cases is often extremely high so insurance companies regularly choose to settle rather than contend a claim.
I would strongly recommed that all show organisers ensure they have suitable and sufficient risk assessments in place and ensure that they have evidence that they enforce whatever rules they have in place.
Eta: driving home I've been thinking of other 'forseeable risks' which one could argue organisers should risk assess and put controls in place for. These include; preventing loose horses from getting onto the road/into public areas, fire risk (including siting of food vans and parking horseboxes close together), damage to cars by parking public cars in the same area as horseboxes, disease prevention (eg. stewards and judges touching exhibits), overcrowded collecting rings, dogs on the showground and many more.
The likelihood of the HSE visiting a show is unlikely (unless there was a fatality) but the likelihood of compensation claims arising is increasing year on year.
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Post by Steward on Mar 25, 2018 7:01:46 GMT
In order for someone to claim compensation following an injury or loss, they have to prove that: a duty of care was owed; the duty of care was breached; and that the injury/loss resulted from that breach. I work in health and safety although don't have any professional involvement of an equine nature at present. However, if an animal injures someone it is possible that a handler/rider could claim that the show organisers were negligent depending on the circumstances. For example, if the animal spooked into a steward because of a loud display/funfair next to the ring, or hurt a pedestrian in inadequate (or badly controlled) horsewalks, or kicked a horse/person as crowding of ring entrances/exits wasn't prevented, or a child fell off because the first ridden class was next to the hunt relay, or the steward/judge was kicked as the ring was simply too small for the number of horses. The list goes on and it would be up to the show organisers to prove that they put all reasonably practicable controls in place to then put the blame onto the handler/rider. Bear in mind too that legally you have to be seen to be enforcing your rules. How many show organisers state that all animals must be covered by public liability insurance but have never asked for proof of insurance? An injured person kicked by an uninsured animal could claim negligence of the show organisers for failing to complete any due diligence. One show locally to me does ask to see proof of insurance for stallions and it's interesting to see which competitors choose not to compete there! It is also worth noting that signing disclaimers don't always stand up in court as you can't just pass off on your legal duty to provide a safe environment. The costs involved with fighting these cases is often extremely high so insurance companies regularly choose to settle rather than contend a claim. I would strongly recommed that all show organisers ensure they have suitable and sufficient risk assessments in place and ensure that they have evidence that they enforce whatever rules they have in place. Eta: driving home I've been thinking of other 'forseeable risks' which one could argue organisers should risk assess and put controls in place for. These include; preventing loose horses from getting onto the road/into public areas, fire risk (including siting of food vans and parking horseboxes close together), damage to cars by parking public cars in the same area as horseboxes, disease prevention (eg. stewards and judges touching exhibits), overcrowded collecting rings, dogs on the showground and many more. The likelihood of the HSE visiting a show is unlikely (unless there was a fatality) but the likelihood of compensation claims arising is increasing year on year. And lets not forget many societies such as BSPS are actually companies now therefore the "corporate" side is relevant God forbid but there could be a case of "Corporate Manslaughter". Also I have a question re the'Employers Insurance' element. If you are a volunteer whom is unpaid, would you be classed as 'Employed' or could this be an insurance "get out" clause??
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