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Post by gillwales on Apr 4, 2018 5:33:52 GMT
I read with interest the recent study regarding rider's weight to horse's weight ratio. I also see the Great Yorkshire has introduced a rule which states that a rider's weight, including outfit and saddle must not be more than 20% of the weight of the horse or pony being ridden by that rider anywhere or at any time on the showground. This does give everyone a guide to follow and ends the arguments; however it will also possibly be the start of some concerns and "fiddles"
1. Is this going to cause eating disorders in young riders?
2. Will it increase obesity in our horses and ponies in the effort to maintain the 20 % ratio?
I can foresee a new range of saddles, stirrups and riding wear being marketed for being light-weight. I hope this will not compromise in safety, especially on stirrup irons.
Is it now the time to abandon rider's age limits in SP and HP classes? ( I am not talking about LR or FR)
I should add that this will not effect me personally at all and I also read that it will be the Vets at the Great Yorkshire show who will be officiating the weighing, not the Judges; which I applaud.
So HGer's over to you; what are you opinions? Is this bad or good? How will it effect showing? Can this be a way of changing things to improve matters?
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Apr 4, 2018 6:47:13 GMT
GYS fetched this in last year, and there were a number of riders asked to dismount. Personally, I think common sense should come into this, however, common sense seems to have left the building. I do have grave concerns about eating disorders, also obesity in horses. According to an article I read the other day, I should ride nothing less than a 15'2 cobby type, - I am 5'2 and weigh about 10 1/2 stone. But if I do my 20% of weight on my horse I am within the ratio. I don't know what the answer is and until common sense comes back into play I think rules like the GYS have are the only way forward. It doesn't mean I agree with it!
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Post by Philippa on Apr 4, 2018 7:11:43 GMT
Are we going to have to 'weigh in' before & after a class like they do in racing??
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Post by Philippa on Apr 4, 2018 7:15:31 GMT
I also would be gravely concerned about eating disorders in children but surely this has got to be down to the adults. If your child is of bigger build then surely you'd put them on a pony competent of carrying them. It's down to common sense again.
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Post by Ziggy on Apr 4, 2018 7:48:38 GMT
I agree common sense should prevail, surely! I don’t think putting a weight limit on rider is a good idea. However on occasions I have seen riders, adults I hasten to add, who could be seen as being too heavy for the horse. I’m sorry but sometimes it can spoil the picture. I saw a gorgeous hack a while back who was beautifully ridden but as it’s rider was overweight it just didn’t look right. I am now 7 1/2 stone lighter than I was two years ago. One of the reasons I lost the weight was to be able to ride again. I totally accepted that I was just too heavy before and logistically it is much easier getting on and off that’s for sure!
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Post by pipandwill on Apr 4, 2018 7:52:13 GMT
I personally can't think of many/any children on hunter ponies or show ponies that are too 'big' for their ponies. The problem is the adults riding them in, and the adults on 'native' ponies. I use that term lightly as yes of course they are native, but some are not bred to do the job they were intended to do. The section Bs for instance, are so so so much lighter of bone than they should/were.
Yes it is about common sense, but I'm not sure how much has been used up until now?! I heard a very small, tiny teenage girl was asked to dismount at gys last year whilst riding a child's pony in- yet there are still large adults riding ponies in the ring that are to small for them?
Difficult topic really
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Apr 4, 2018 8:04:09 GMT
I have to say - watching some of the hunters being worked in last year at the GYS I was appalled at the gadgets used - daisy reins, side reins, draw reins - huge bits that would not be allowed in the ring. There was also a LR/FR worked in at CSL - fair enough by a child so the weight issue would not come into play - wearing spurs, huge bit, side reins and two whips! Perhaps if the YAS are prepared to take the stance they do on weight, there are other issues which require looking at as well. Speaking with a show organisers hat on - it is incredibly difficult to police all these issues, not least because some competitors quite frankly are not all that pleasant! I agree with you Pipandwill - the issue is far more to do with adults on small ponies. I must admit, I didn't hear about any small teenagers being asked to dismount, but I did hear about adults being asked to dismount and some of those who were weighed felt they would be within the 20% and were not!
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bugs
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Post by bugs on Apr 4, 2018 9:18:23 GMT
I would love them to drop the ages on hunter pony classes so we could do them. Always so few in them and my pony is as good as a hunter as she is a native. I don’t feel I’m too big on her at 5’ 6 and 138cm, and I’m under the 20% ratio by a long way! But she could never be ridden by many children as she is too much of a handful so being allowed to be ridden by an adult means she isn’t wasted in a field.
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Post by janetbushell on Apr 4, 2018 10:20:44 GMT
I would love them to drop the ages on hunter pony classes so we could do them. Always so few in them and my pony is as good as a hunter as she is a native. I don’t feel I’m too big on her at 5’ 6 and 138cm, and I’m under the 20% ratio by a long way! But she could never be ridden by many children as she is too much of a handful so being allowed to be ridden by an adult means she isn’t wasted in a field. NPS have SHP classes with no rider age I think Plus NCPA have their own NCPA Registered classes with no rider age (Animal needs to be registered with NCPA but it is a 1 off lifetime registration) plus the Competition horse/pony classes again with no age of rider |
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Post by gillwales on Apr 4, 2018 10:27:42 GMT
I would love them to drop the ages on hunter pony classes so we could do them. Always so few in them and my pony is as good as a hunter as she is a native. I don’t feel I’m too big on her at 5’ 6 and 138cm, and I’m under the 20% ratio by a long way! But she could never be ridden by many children as she is too much of a handful so being allowed to be ridden by an adult means she isn’t wasted in a field. [/quote You can compete in NPS classes. I suggest that you, and anyone else that feels the same, write to the BSPS and other showing societies with an age limit, including Grandstand, although while I personally feel that there would be a lot of benefit in dropping rider age limits on of the factors of the BSPS's charitable status is the encouragement of children to ride; however I think this could be overcome by having "Best Child Rider" classes, which IMO would be much better than judging the ponies and would better fore fill it's mission statement . |
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Post by gillwales on Apr 4, 2018 10:31:25 GMT
I have to say - watching some of the hunters being worked in last year at the GYS I was appalled at the gadgets used - daisy reins, side reins, draw reins - huge bits that would not be allowed in the ring. There was also a LR/FR worked in at CSL - fair enough by a child so the weight issue would not come into play - wearing spurs, huge bit, side reins and two whips! Perhaps if the YAS are prepared to take the stance they do on weight, there are other issues which require looking at as well. Speaking with a show organisers hat on - it is incredibly difficult to police all these issues, not least because some competitors quite frankly are not all that pleasant! I agree with you Pipandwill - the issue is far more to do with adults on small ponies. I must admit, I didn't hear about any small teenagers being asked to dismount, but I did hear about adults being asked to dismount and some of those who were weighed felt they would be within the 20% and were not! Maybe it is time to bring in a rule which would prevent a horse being ridden in any tack that was not permitted in it's class, that would include spurs on a pony. However that is another issue |
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Post by Philippa on Apr 4, 2018 11:02:15 GMT
I have to say - watching some of the hunters being worked in last year at the GYS I was appalled at the gadgets used - daisy reins, side reins, draw reins - huge bits that would not be allowed in the ring. There was also a LR/FR worked in at CSL - fair enough by a child so the weight issue would not come into play - wearing spurs, huge bit, side reins and two whips! Perhaps if the YAS are prepared to take the stance they do on weight, there are other issues which require looking at as well. Speaking with a show organisers hat on - it is incredibly difficult to police all these issues, not least because some competitors quite frankly are not all that pleasant! I agree with you Pipandwill - the issue is far more to do with adults on small ponies. I must admit, I didn't hear about any small teenagers being asked to dismount, but I did hear about adults being asked to dismount and some of those who were weighed felt they would be within the 20% and were not! Maybe it is time to bring in a rule which would prevent a horse being ridden in any tack that was not permitted in it's class, that would include spurs on a pony. However that is another issue This is already in place with bsps. |
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Post by Philippa on Apr 4, 2018 12:26:02 GMT
I agree common sense should prevail, surely! I don’t think putting a weight limit on rider is a good idea. However on occasions I have seen riders, adults I hasten to add, who could be seen as being too heavy for the horse. I’m sorry but sometimes it can spoil the picture. I saw a gorgeous hack a while back who was beautifully ridden but as it’s rider was overweight it just didn’t look right. I am now 7 1/2 stone lighter than I was two years ago. One of the reasons I lost the weight was to be able to ride again. I totally accepted that I was just too heavy before and logistically it is much easier getting on and off that’s for sure! Wow. Well done 👍 |
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Apr 4, 2018 12:43:31 GMT
I have to say - watching some of the hunters being worked in last year at the GYS I was appalled at the gadgets used - daisy reins, side reins, draw reins - huge bits that would not be allowed in the ring. There was also a LR/FR worked in at CSL - fair enough by a child so the weight issue would not come into play - wearing spurs, huge bit, side reins and two whips! Perhaps if the YAS are prepared to take the stance they do on weight, there are other issues which require looking at as well. Speaking with a show organisers hat on - it is incredibly difficult to police all these issues, not least because some competitors quite frankly are not all that pleasant! I agree with you Pipandwill - the issue is far more to do with adults on small ponies. I must admit, I didn't hear about any small teenagers being asked to dismount, but I did hear about adults being asked to dismount and some of those who were weighed felt they would be within the 20% and were not! Maybe it is time to bring in a rule which would prevent a horse being ridden in any tack that was not permitted in it's class, that would include spurs on a pony. However that is another issue The rules are already there - unfortunately it is not always possible to police! |
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Post by chloesmum on Apr 4, 2018 13:50:47 GMT
Having gone to the TSR debate 18 months ago where the GYS vet was on the panel along with a BHS rep as well as representatives from the showing world, judges and competitors I came away thinking that common sense should prevail and I believe the GYS rules are flawed. The vet and BHS & GYS rep whilst having great intentions did agree that a blanket 20% cannot be a hard and fast rule on welfare. Both agreed there are so many variables:
Type of pony/horse; work it is being asked to do; fitness level of horse and yes fat does not mean fit! they were critical of so called 'show condition'; fitness of rider; way the rider rides - examples given like William Fox-Pitt so is very tall but rides in a very light way; tack; ground conditions and on an on!!
GYS took their stance 2 years ago asking some riders to dismount and they have obviously continued with this now having scales but how interesting that one rider asked to dismount 2 years ago went on and won a HOYS qualifier at the same show a year later! I think this just proves that judges will see things differently.
Vets may be officiating the weighing but who selects those required for it? Perhaps this year they will have vets at every ring?
As regards saddles as one highly respected judge pointed out his pet hate is seeing bums falling over the saddle, putting a pony in a too small saddle is just as much if not more damaging to the animals back than having a taller; lean rider in the ride saddle who rides correctly.
It is incredibly difficult to have a hard and fast so called scientific approach however it is great that research is being done, I hope this is however for all disciplines and not just showing.
I also totally agree with TSR view that it is about education as well, often the problem is not at top level showing which I would suggest GYS is but at a more local level. I am no expert but at HOYS 2016 & 2017 I don't think I saw anyone in the classes I watched who too big on their pony (in the ring anyway!! not talking about working in which is a whole other ball game!!)
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Post by the showing register on Apr 5, 2018 11:38:51 GMT
It is a good job showing is sitting up and taking notice as every report coming out indicates high levels of child obesity as well as adult.If wanting to ride a pony and fit the pony so it is a happy combination makes the child aware of health eating and a healthy weight then that can only be a good thing.We are not going to stop anorexia in some people regardless of weight limits when riding, it is a complex and difficult illness but at least there is an animal for every size of rider so there is no need to feel pressured into riding a too small mount.
We contributed to the AHT research and I attended the pre publication meeting and yes it was very tedious to hear a person of great influence trot out anorexia and William FP as reasons for not taking this head on.
Education is the way and I can see a far greater awareness amongst riders than a year ago. My own view is that 20% is too high and for everything to be right ie fitting the saddle , allowing for heavy going etc 15% is far nearer the mark but 20% is better than nothing for riders to aim at.
As for fat ponies this is down to judges not to give them a high mark and trainers to offer honest advice.
And I did think some Shetland riders were too tall at HOYS and I bought it up with the Shetland Pony Society.
Gail Chapman
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Post by oldschooler on Apr 8, 2018 14:09:38 GMT
It is a good job showing is sitting up and taking notice as every report coming out indicates high levels of child obesity as well as adult.If wanting to ride a pony and fit the pony so it is a happy combination makes the child aware of health eating and a healthy weight then that can only be a good thing.We are not going to stop anorexia in some people regardless of weight limits when riding, it is a complex and difficult illness but at least there is an animal for every size of rider so there is no need to feel pressured into riding a too small mount. We contributed to the AHT research and I attended the pre publication meeting and yes it was very tedious to hear a person of great influence trot out anorexia and William FP as reasons for not taking this head on. Education is the way and I can see a far greater awareness amongst riders than a year ago. My own view is that 20% is too high and for everything to be right ie fitting the saddle , allowing for heavy going etc 15% is far nearer the mark but 20% is better than nothing for riders to aim at. As for fat ponies this is down to judges not to give them a high mark and trainers to offer honest advice. And I did think some Shetland riders were too tall at HOYS and I bought it up with the Shetland Pony Society. Gail Chapman Completely agree. I have seen some ridiculously tall riders on too small mounts, and also some ridiculously heavy riders on too light mounts. The first presents a bad picture, the second could present a welfare issue. This has been the elephant in the room for too long and is not an easy problem to solve. Unfortunately putting a percentage weight on is really the only way forward at this stage, in the future this should not be needed, but a guideline is needed now. |
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Post by maxandpaddy on Apr 8, 2018 15:29:13 GMT
I’m not sure the weight debate should involve children at all, they themselves don’t buy or choose what they ride.
I’ve got a friend whose daughter is 7, very tall and quite solidly built taking after her gorgeous tall parents. She isn’t the most competent or confident rider yet, and does look big on the pony she currently has, loves and trusts. In walk trot classes I fail to see this as a problem even if the ‘picture’ isn’t perfect, her parents accept winning at a high level isn’t going to happen but it’s about her confidence at the moment not rosettes. They go out to have fun with a lovely gem of a pony but have overheard awful comments concerning their daughters size, questioning her age, and being darn right rude! In front of her!! When actually she’s often one of the youngest in the class
I totally agree with most of the above comments but we need to be very careful how any of this is directed at children. Or if it should be xx
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Post by sjw87 on Apr 9, 2018 5:53:31 GMT
We contributed to the AHT research and I attended the pre publication meeting and yes it was very tedious to hear a person of great influence trot out anorexia and William FP as reasons for not taking this head on. I'm sorry Gail but I find this attitude completely disgusting and offensive. Eating disorders may be a 'tedious' subject for you but anorexia can prove fatal and all eating disorders can have massive repercussions throughout that person's life. I absolutely agree that we need be mindful of rider weights and the welfare of horses and ponies but this should be done sensitively as eating disorders are very serious and for someone in an official position as yourself to make such a flippant comment is extremely unprofessional at best. I'd personally say abhorrent. I can only guess by your comment that you and your family have never had to contend with weight issues. If I'm wrong then it only makes your comment even more shocking. Unfortunately a lot of people out there do battle daily; weighing themselves at an unhealthy frequency, feeling self loathing as they become obsessed with their bmi, desperately trying to obtain an unrealistic target in order to meet the 'ideals' of society. People of all ages, all genders and from all upbringings. The Showing Register claims to be 'here to encourage, innovate and listen'. This comment completely contradicts that. Personally, the nature of the various surveys TSR have conducted appear more contentious than anything else. Whether the reason behind that is to intentionally cause controversy or for their own publicity is anyone's guess. As a direct result of this 'throwaway' comment and the underlying lack of understanding and consideration it portrays, I for one will never show under the TSR again. Maybe people who have watched someone die from anorexia or battled with eating disorders themselves will understand why. |
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Post by gillwales on Apr 9, 2018 6:24:00 GMT
I think that the height of the rider to the depth of the horse/ pony should also be taken into consideration. When a rider is too tall it means that usually the rider rides with too short stirrups which means that the weight of the rider tends to be over the loins. This was touched on in the report. Personally I feel that the main way that this can all be addressed is that the only rider on the show ground can be the one that competes, with the exception of championships. Yes I know this is going to make life hard for producers; however the welfare of the animals is more important than them making a living. I also think that people will look for a more rounded pony for their children, one that they can manage themselves rather than an over glamorous nervy pony requires an older more experienced rider to make safe for it's child rider.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Apr 9, 2018 9:07:22 GMT
I think that the height of the rider to the depth of the horse/ pony should also be taken into consideration. When a rider is too tall it means that usually the rider rides with too short stirrups which means that the weight of the rider tends to be over the loins. This was touched on in the report. That is a very sensible comment Gill - we have a 15 hand TB x sect D and a 13 2 coloured cob - I have a photo of my daughter riding both of them at the same show - same stirrups swapped from one saddle to the other - interestingly the feet of the rider are in approximately the same position in relation to the horse due to the width of the cob - both are good doers but are fit not fat! |
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Post by flee on Apr 9, 2018 11:56:53 GMT
How is the weight of the pony determined at a show , ie weigh bridge or weight tape ? Just curious because with my natives the weight given using a weight tape is considerably lighter than their true weight ( as given on a weigh bridge ).
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Post by gillwales on Apr 9, 2018 12:06:02 GMT
How is the weight of the pony determined at a show , ie weigh bridge or weight tape ? Just curious because with my natives the weight given using a weight tape is considerably lighter than their true weight ( as given on a weigh bridge ). I have wondered this too, either way it is a bit of a worry as either it does not give the true weight or if a weighbridge, and you can just see the pandemonium that could cause, then it will encourage people to overfeed their animals to alter the ration of rider weight to horse's weight. Also in show-jumping and eventing there was a minimum weight horses were required to carry, how is this worked out and will it be abandoned or maintained? |
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Post by the showing register on Apr 9, 2018 17:38:39 GMT
Sjw87 I can see your point of view as you have obviously been deeply affected by first hand experience. My point was that we have to address how it can be put over in a correct manner so it does not cause distress. For someone to trot out the same arguments without addressing the animal welfare problem is no help. Sorry not to see you again but good luck with your showing.
At Great Yorkshire it is a weighbridge as far as I am aware everywhere else they are not weighed.
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Post by sjw87 on Apr 9, 2018 21:33:58 GMT
Sjw87 I can see your point of view as you have obviously been deeply affected by first hand experience. My point was that we have to address how it can be put over in a correct manner so it does not cause distress. For someone to trot out the same arguments without addressing the animal welfare problem is no help. Sorry not to see you again but good luck with your showing. So maybe you'd like to explain what TSR are doing as a society to prevent the subject causing distress? Surely you have a responsibility to safeguard your members? I'm not just talking about young female members, all members are at risk. Maybe the person you mention was 'tedious' as no satisfactory answers were forthcoming? Maybe you and others were 'trotting out the same arguments of animal welfare without addressing the issue of eating disorders'? Balancing it successfully requires understanding of both sides. This is my last reply on this thread as unfortunately I feel that you have absolutely no desire to understand let alone prevent eating disorders. *Edited to add: Thank you to the kind people who have PM'd me, concerned at any distress this has caused. I'm on my way to work so won't get chance to reply individually until later but please be assured that I am absolutely fine, no distress caused. Just appalled that a society so vocal in this debate are so flippant about what is a very serious subject. |
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Post by mcnaughty on Apr 23, 2018 12:15:06 GMT
I whole heartedly agree with what TSR was trying (but unfortunately failed) to say above. The welfare of the pony must be considered before the human IMO as pony cannot choose who rides it. I do not believe for one moment that a child will become anorexic because an official has told them they are too big for a pony. All those generations of PC/RC instructors, horsey parents and friends who have openly and honestly told children that they have grown out of their pony. Is there truly a difference? The rules must be set and people must adhere to them and stop giving excuses. We all know this is aimed at adults working in tiny ponies so we really need to stop trying to kid ourselves otherwise.
As for anyone that would fatten a pony up to compensate on them being too bit - that is just sick - is a red rosette really worth that?
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nps
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Post by nps on Apr 23, 2018 13:33:34 GMT
I would love them to drop the ages on hunter pony classes so we could do them. Always so few in them and my pony is as good as a hunter as she is a native. I don’t feel I’m too big on her at 5’ 6 and 138cm, and I’m under the 20% ratio by a long way! But she could never be ridden by many children as she is too much of a handful so being allowed to be ridden by an adult means she isn’t wasted in a field. The NPS Kellythorpe Show Pony and SHP National Championships have no rider age limit. We would love to see you on your SHP at Malvern in August - great prize fund too |
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janet
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Post by janet on Apr 23, 2018 14:50:00 GMT
I think the rule at GYS is wrong, people shouldn't be picked on because of their weight, if you want to bring it in then the whole class should be weighed, it will lead to eating disorders and fat ponies, there are far more serious welfare issues in my opinion such as doping, withholding water, tying ponies in for hours on end, and to many gadgets for a quick result rather than ponies being brought on slowly and sensitively, M&M's can carry weight and to ride around a ring for 10 minutes and do a show is nothing, we will loose the essence of a true pony as people will try to breed up to height, and the smaller stallions who need an adult jockey will not be seen in the ring even though these may be the most true to type, it should be down to the judge to put up the best combination and have a quite word if they think the pic is wrong
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Post by blagdon01 on Apr 23, 2018 16:49:21 GMT
here here JANET
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Post by gillwales on Apr 25, 2018 19:06:48 GMT
I think the rule at GYS is wrong, people shouldn't be picked on because of their weight, if you want to bring it in then the whole class should be weighed, it will lead to eating disorders and fat ponies, there are far more serious welfare issues in my opinion such as doping, withholding water, tying ponies in for hours on end, and to many gadgets for a quick result rather than ponies being brought on slowly and sensitively, M&M's can carry weight and to ride around a ring for 10 minutes and do a show is nothing, we will loose the essence of a true pony as people will try to breed up to height, and the smaller stallions who need an adult jockey will not be seen in the ring even though these may be the most true to type, it should be down to the judge to put up the best combination and have a quite word if they think the pic is wrong I fully agree with you, and in my OP I said that these were valid concerns. I think that this is a "knee jerk" reaction to a piece in a newspaper. I think that the height of the rider should be taken into account as someone that is too tall maybe light enough, but the riding position will put more weight over the loins and more likely to cause discomfort. I hope that some sort of common sense will come into play here to always suitable riders on suitable mounts with all of the wider implications taken into account. It is time for the Societies to ballot their members for ideas before going forward with the subject. |
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