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Post by Toaster on Apr 13, 2018 12:53:23 GMT
Those are some good points Caroline. I am a very keen spectator of pony showing and travel many hundreds of miles to sit very quietly in the stands of shows so these are my random thoughts on how things can improve for the plaited ponies (for what they are worth)
I feel the success of producers in the plaited classes puts people off - I have the greatest of respect for producers don't get me wrong but they are just so good at their job it must be disheartening for others
To me the jump from SP first ridden to the 128 classes is massive and not to be under estimated, the 128 class is very very polished indeed and the ponies can be quite different. If the first ridden SP height was 128 then I think children would transition a lot better and not be tempted in to the M&M classes
Ditto the LR SHP and 122cm SHP - I simply cannot see why there is such a limited number of FR SHP classes - surely this would keep the interest more and be phenomenally well supported, we must lose a lot of jockeys from LR SHP to FR M&M especially if their pony can transition from one to the other after a winter's hair growth.
If there was an argument for getting rid of the age limits would the NPS classes not be full to bursting? (genuine question)
The HOYS PB classes definitely are popular but would they be if they weren't qualifiers? At so many shows these are almost a carbon copy rerun of the 148 SP class so have we somehow missed a trick with these or are GM just happy because its bringing in the money? and has anyone done any digging to see just how many adults (and indeed how many true SHP types) compete in these classes? The part bred HOYS qualifiers are also open to part breds from stud books other than the usual but when did anyone see anything remotely chunky in one?
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Post by chloesmum on Apr 13, 2018 13:47:35 GMT
Hi Toaster - yes I agree Caroline makes some very valid points re BSPS being a childrens society however I think times have changed, and BSPS has embraced the Heritage classes which means they do now have a substantial adult rider membership. My thoughts on some of your valid points are: Yes I agree SP classes are dominated by producers, but then I think back to our days and they always were, often they have the pick of the best ponies from studs and as you say do an amazing job. SHP classes to a degree were not so dominated perhaps because they were more versatile, hunted and did WHP classes sometimes as well? Not sure today that many would fit that bill, a true SHP type as Caroline rightly points out is hard to find. There were no PP qualifiers for RIHS in our day, but (tin hat on here!) have they helped improve numbers? I think not - we regularly see PPSP and PPSHP classes with 1 or 2 in. This year the 2 PP SHP classes are combined into 1 I suspect because of falling entries and we now have PP Int class. It will be interesting to see if numbers forward at qualifiers improve. With regard to the NPS classes which should be supported I fear they are not full to bursting because people perhaps cannot afford to keep a pony just to do one final. The demise of many classes and shows has of course been chasing RIHS and HOYS qualifiers and no matter what your opinion is on that it is the case for many competitors, these are the Championships they want to compete in, so I do feel that older riders may keep their SP/SHP if they could still compete there. Not saying they should but I think then you would see more in a class. As you say the HOYS P/B classes are popular because of the HOYS ticket but most ponies have qualified in the SP classes as well! However as I said in my first post it would be a shame in my opinion to see SP/SHP classes become dominated not just by producers but professional/producer riders. Bigmama's suggestion of Junior classes might work however that would mean more classes? not sure that is viable which is why I suggested the amateur rider route. Re your point on FR transition I was stewarding at a show this week and really interested to see how popular the Tiny tots classes were so perhaps these need to encouraged more as well as the FRSHP classes as you suggest. If I had a young child I would much rather keep them in plaited classes say on a 138cm or 143cm than throw them into the large M&M breed classes but people make their choices for all sorts of reasons however as I also said before I think one of the reasons is a shortage of good quality SHPs at the larger heights and perhaps as well Natives are not so expensive?
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Post by Age limit on Apr 14, 2018 6:30:26 GMT
Some very good points Caroline.
In regard to the PB class. We are eligible PB but she is .6 overweight! Plus again, I would be wasting my money as it is all filled with bay show ponies.
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Post by Age limit on Apr 14, 2018 6:31:14 GMT
*overheight* bloody phone
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Post by HOYS Rules on Apr 14, 2018 7:47:02 GMT
Just a quick point re HOYS PB classes - all ponies have to be shown with a coloured browband and riders in navy jackets
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Post by Part bred on Apr 14, 2018 16:03:54 GMT
Having done the hoys pb class it's viewed as pba class by the masses as that what they often refer to it as. It is dominated by bay show ponies. Of the top of my head i I know of one shp that qualified for it last year
Our SHP competes hoys each year but didn't get a look in pb classes apparently he lost a leg it would seem for his confirmation and regularly scores top way of going marks but often beaten by naughty nappy ponies in the part bred
We aren't bothering this year as it's just another glorified show pony class
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Post by scarileo on Apr 14, 2018 16:15:57 GMT
I would love to do the NPS open age classes on my shp/whp but she is unregistered and has no 'breeding' to speak of so (I think) that rules her out of the NPS flat classes. She can't quite manage the NPS open height whp and, although I completely understand why they don't have novice height plaited whp because of low entries, it limits us to training stakes classes which isn't really worth bathing/plaiting/travelling/etc on....
If the HOYS timetable wasn't so full already, I really think they should add a part bred horse class to complement the pony class, especially now the Cherif has gone...
Personally, I like the idea of scrapping age limits above 133cm and having a *clear* amateur definition if it went down that route...
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Post by Forgotmylogin on Apr 15, 2018 6:15:39 GMT
I’ve already tried. I’ve wrote to all the societies and the only one that did anything about it was Janet Bushell. BSPS didn’t even warrant giving me a reply!!!
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Post by janetbushell on Apr 15, 2018 15:37:49 GMT
I’ve already tried. I’ve wrote to all the societies and the only one that did anything about it was Janet Bushell. BSPS didn’t even warrant giving me a reply!!! NCPA have always had their own "NCPA Registered" classes. The non M&M section has never had a rider age on the animals in the same way as M&Ms don't - both sections do however say the riders must be a suitable size & weight for the animal. Following a request just over a year ago, we also introduced an NCPA registered WH/WHP class at POYS & this is also encouraged at all NCPA branch events which have a WH section. At POYS in 2017 this was a "trial" class but following its success, for 2018 it will have full POYS status, with sash to the winner, brass plaques to 3rd & prize money. The animals do need to be registered with NCPA but this is a one off lifetime registration, so anyone who is too old but does not wish to sell their animal why not give the classes a try? There are I/H, ridden & WH sections, so something for everyone.
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Post by Forgotmylogin on Apr 15, 2018 18:30:48 GMT
That’s great Janet that my suggestion was a great success I am so pleased it is now a class thank you.
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Post by catkin on May 4, 2018 9:45:10 GMT
This is indeed an interesting debate. I am short and my daughter's substantial (middleweight!) SHP is about as big as I like to ride. My legs simply are not effective on anything much bigger. I know more talented people than me or a similar height will argue differently, but that's how I find things. Because I am small, I am probably a similar size to the larger children in 143cm SHP, 148 SP and smaller than most in 153cm. But that doesn't mean I think I want or should be competing with them. Without going into the 'sport' thing (I think it's a bit harder than displaying the three basic gaits - it's about how you display them) with pony classes, surely way of going has to partly be assessed on suitability for the job in hand. And the job in hand is slightly different for a large child and a small adult? I know you'll argue that manners are manners and way of going is way of going; but I don't think I want quite the same ride as a good 11 year old child - or I shouldn't anyway! On numbers in classes, whilst yes, there is definitely a decline in quantity in SP and SHP, I think from what I have seen, so is there across all sections including M&Ms. It's just if you work on say a 20% decline, the M&Ms started off with lots more so you don't notice a few missing. Our sport/pastime/hobby does need a rethink, that's for sure. I do think there are societal forces at work that are outside the control of the organising organisations though. Rising costs, more working parents, dangerous roads, lack of hacking, more school work, etc, etc. One thing I would suggest is more novice classes throughout the year. We'd encourage more people into the game that way and better preserve the equines within it.
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Post by catkin on May 4, 2018 9:47:37 GMT
p.s with the young child and young pony I am currently nurturing I have been trying to go low-key at smaller shows. Trouble is (and this is NOT about winning) the standard of judging/class organisation is on the whole terrible and I find myself most frustrated. It's at these shows I want her to be able to do the 'fun' classes as well as well as the 'proper' ones and then have a bash at the clear round jumping.... but it's not as simple as that!
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Post by Philippa on May 4, 2018 10:56:07 GMT
p.s with the young child and young pony I am currently nurturing I have been trying to go low-key at smaller shows. Trouble is (and this is NOT about winning) the standard of judging/class organisation is on the whole terrible and I find myself most frustrated. It's at these shows I want her to be able to do the 'fun' classes as well as well as the 'proper' ones and then have a bash at the clear round jumping.... but it's not as simple as that! Im with you on this Catkin. It would be great to trip out to a local show or two but unfortunately half the time we find the judges are trying to put you down because they dont feel that you should be there or they just havent got a clue. I dont change tact regardless of where I am showing, our turnout is exactly the same be it HOYS classes or bonny pony!!!!!! Its about the children enjoying themselves but unfortunately we turn up in our nice lorry with our name on and feel a bit awkward, we are no way top of our game but we do compete county level.
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Post by sjw87 on May 6, 2018 9:46:57 GMT
I dont change tact regardless of where I am showing, our turnout is exactly the same be it HOYS classes or bonny pony!!!!!! Its about the children enjoying themselves but unfortunately we turn up in our nice lorry with our name on and feel a bit awkward, we are no way top of our game but we do compete county level. Ditto. I am the most home produced competitor you will find; I work full time in a non-horsey job, rent a sole use yard, have no family members who are horsey and have chronic health issues. I do ALL the care and produce my horses myself and am often at shows completely on my own. I do have some quality horses (which I have produced from youngsters) but there's many reasons why I may want to go to a local show rather than county; - the cost. - a shorter day, especially as I do all the driving and usually have no-one to do the horses left at home so have to do the yard before and after too. - the option to do a couple of classes rather than just one. - taking a youngster out. - taking the veterans out for a play as they are retired from county. - to support my local riding club which is where it all started for me. However, turn up with a top quality youngster or an 18yo ex-hoys whp and SOME judges think you're being mightily unfair. My 24yo still looks 8 and loves a play round some wh fences but I don't want to be asking him to jump big tracks any more. I've ended up having to compete my 18yo 15hh in horse classes locally as judges seem to accept that more than taking him in the pony class (even though he meets the criteria for the pony class) but the 24yo 14hh is a true pony. Thankfully the show organisers and most judges appreciate the fact that it's nice to see veterans still looking so good, sound and enjoying their work but a minority really make you feel like you shouldn't be there. Apologies as that was slightly off topic. To get it back on topic though; I think we are seeing the aftermath of everyone being so focussed on hoys/rihs nowadays. Societies such as the ncpa, nps etc offer so many classes and their own championships but people would rather go to somewhere with big qualifiers or the 'one-off' shows heavily promoted on fb as offering prize money rather than support long standing societies. These societies offer well run shows with panel judges and are ideal for all levels but if no-one supports their classes such as the open age shp classes then nowhere else will be encouraged to offer them.
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 6, 2018 14:14:44 GMT
I am the most home produced competitor you will find; I work full time in a non-horsey job, rent a sole use yard, have no family members who are horsey and have chronic health issues. I do ALL the care and produce my horses myself and am often at shows completely on my own. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ." Apologies as that was slightly off topic. To get it back on topic though; I think we are seeing the aftermath of everyone being so focussed on hoys/rihs nowadays. Societies such as the NCPA, NPS, etc offer so many classes and their own championships but people would rather go to somewhere with big qualifiers or the 'one-off' shows heavily promoted on fb as offering prize money rather than support long standing societies. These societies offer well run shows with panel judges and are ideal for all levels but if no-one supports their classes such as the open age shp classes then nowhere else will be encouraged to offer them. Your last paragraph - Very well said.
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justliloldme
Full Member
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Post by justliloldme on May 13, 2018 4:31:05 GMT
Derbyshire County Scrapped SHP & SP without the exception of LR/FR Ages a few years ago and has increased entries, lots of small adults etc ride, does say to be of suitable size for pony, IE height also taken into account so not to un balance the pony as much as weight
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Post by gillwales on May 13, 2018 20:25:20 GMT
If the BSPS does not take this seriously; and HOYS, there will be a very limited number of show and hunter ponies bred as breeders are just not getting their money back on what it costs them to breed the ponies. I am well aware that the BSPS is a charity for children, I think they should concentrate on Best Child Rider, where the standard of riding is judged has opposed to the pony. I think that LR and FR classes should be kept and an emphasis on Novice Rider classes.
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