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Post by gillwales on Sept 18, 2018 16:21:37 GMT
For the welfare of our beautiful show ponies and horses this must be addressed. I find it truly heartbreaking that this goes on and, in fact, is commonplace. Surely it is time to stop the abuse! very well said BUT i fear it wont until Shows like HOYS, Royal International , TSR, ban the people involved, but they will squeal that they will be stopped making a living BUT THEY HAVE BROKEN THE RULES - we MUST stand together on this , just look at who is targeted it seems to me and in my opinion the rate of tests done on the pros is less than the test done on the home produced, and before i get accused of pro bashing i am not they do a super job but some of the "newer" kids on the block are at it I agree, you should have a life ban, that is going to be the only way to stop this. Thank you Sallie for enlightening me re the Vodka.
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Post by Undercover on Sept 18, 2018 16:22:40 GMT
I also have heard some heart wrenching stories this year, but cannot act on them which believe me I would if I had evidence. Being an ex reporter of a newspaper I would gladly go undercover to expose these so called animal lovers. I feel maybe this is what is needed!! It’s also the same names that keep raising their ugly heads when you hear such stories.
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Post by Really sad on Sept 18, 2018 20:49:22 GMT
This season I have heard more rumours of various doping than I ever have before. Vodka amongst them and unfortunately I am very inclined to believe them looking at the animals involved.
There are those that we are all sure do it, and yet people still send horses to them. Unless people have some morals and care more for their horses welfare than to win then it will carry on and on. The repercussions for the owners and for the people who do it are not strict enough to deter them.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 20, 2018 8:49:10 GMT
On behalf of the Joint Measurement Board (JMB) I'd like to flag up the fact that absolutely RANDOM sampling was undertaken by RANDOMLY selected Appointed Measurers across the UK this season - and is being continued. EVERY sample was tested - every sample returned negative. This move definitely put word out there that the JMB is pro-active in respect of the use of "disallowed products" (my words) and is keen to respect and promote the Welfare of equines. The Approved Measurers know that they may take a RANDOM sample at any time with the full support of the Stewards and Officials of the JMB, which 'works' for and with the various Member Societies & Associations which require Measuring to be undertaken. All JMB Rules may be found on the website www.thejmbonline.co.uk - along with other useful information, including a helpful guide to 'Preparing a Horse or Pony for Measuring'.
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Post by the showing register on Sept 20, 2018 12:46:17 GMT
Thank you TSR for your response and clarity over the legal side of effectively suspending someone’s livelihood. I can understand it is fraught with problems and technicalities. Do you have any views /solutions for societies widening what they test for to include say vodka, bromide And the like? Appreciate the argument that you could be testing for evermore, but these substances seem to be widely known of. I’ve not checked, butdoes bromide and vodka even fall under the heading of prohibited substance? The Showing Council is trying to get all its members to agree on procedures and penalties but it is not all encompassing ( TSR cannot be a member) RoR , SSADL etc are outside the scope of any initiative they try to put together. At the moment I am sure alcohol is not tested for. Something to unite the other players is in the pipeline but as someone said it is a question of funds. If we added a £2 charge to our entry fees for dope testing at our show we might raise enough to test 3 / 4 animals but would exhibitors accept this without a reduction in entries. At our summer show a society dope tested but the tester sat with the competitors and socialised all day and I do think it should be done more in a veterinary type of way with maximum discretion and integrity.
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Post by Until This Happens on Sept 20, 2018 14:12:59 GMT
TSR as always, proactive, friendly, to the point and transparent! Thank you.
Personally I would add £2 to my entries if I thought dope testing would be carried out correctly and test for things other than say ACP and Bute. It’s no great secret of other substances being used, so could be tested for - but appreciate comes at a cost.
From the description you’ve given of testing being carried out at your show ( by another society) it sounds a total waste of money and hardly professional.
I fully support TSR and hope HOYS 2018 and 2019 show season and beyond, sees more testing and widening of substances tested for. And judges not having winners whose bits are dangling!
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Post by Rife on Sept 20, 2018 14:27:19 GMT
Thank you TSR for your response and clarity over the legal side of effectively suspending someone’s livelihood. I can understand it is fraught with problems and technicalities. Do you have any views /solutions for societies widening what they test for to include say vodka, bromide And the like? Appreciate the argument that you could be testing for evermore, but these substances seem to be widely known of. I’ve not checked, butdoes bromide and vodka even fall under the heading of prohibited substance? The Showing Council is trying to get all its members to agree on procedures and penalties but it is not all encompassing ( TSR cannot be a member) RoR , SSADL etc are outside the scope of any initiative they try to put together. At the moment I am sure alcohol is not tested for. Something to unite the other players is in the pipeline but as someone said it is a question of funds. If we added a £2 charge to our entry fees for dope testing at our show we might raise enough to test 3 / 4 animals but would exhibitors accept this without a reduction in entries. At our summer show a society dope tested but the tester sat with the competitors and socialised all day and I do think it should be done more in a veterinary type of way with maximum discretion and integrity. My personal opinion is that yes, I would happily pay an extra £2 per class all season for open, transparent, fair testing with published results and proper penalties. I have seen animals, which I believe to be doped, win classes time and time again in the most blatant fashion all season.
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Post by chelseah01 on Sept 20, 2018 15:14:46 GMT
TSR as always, proactive, friendly, to the point and transparent! Thank you. Personally I would add £2 to my entries if I thought dope testing would be carried out correctly and test for things other than say ACP and Bute. It’s no great secret of other substances being used, so could be tested for - but appreciate comes at a cost. From the description you’ve given of testing being carried out at your show ( by another society) it sounds a total waste of money and hardly professional. I fully support TSR and hope HOYS 2018 and 2019 show season and beyond, sees more testing and widening of substances tested for. And judges not having winners whose bits are dangling! I entirely agree and would be happy to pay an additional £2.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Sept 20, 2018 19:55:22 GMT
Interesting comments - the legal angle is the one that I fail to see how it cannot be upheld. I am a bookkeeper - by law I have to hold a license, insurance, prove competence and have a dbs check. If I am do something wrong my governing body can and will take my license off me. Should I do something illegal and end up with a criminal record this would show on my dbs check - I would not be able to attain a licence. I therefore fail to see how the argument of taking someone's livelihood off them stacks up. I would only need to turn a blind eye to someone else doing something illegal to lose my livelihood!
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Post by the showing register on Sept 21, 2018 6:23:09 GMT
Interesting comments - the legal angle is the one that I fail to see how it cannot be upheld. I am a bookkeeper - by law I have to hold a license, insurance, prove competence and have a dbs check. If I am do something wrong my governing body can and will take my license off me. Should I do something illegal and end up with a criminal record this would show on my dbs check - I would not be able to attain a licence. I therefore fail to see how the argument of taking someone's livelihood off them stacks up. I would only need to turn a blind eye to someone else doing something illegal to lose my livelihood! It is a question of strict liability. Believe me I have spent many hours trawling records and court cases and last year the racing people tried to make it stick and failed in a high profile case. Strict liability means that whatever the circumstances the keeper of the animal is liable. Under current terms if a keeper says the horse was ' got at' at a show say in the stables as long as this window of time is correct it is a let off for the keeper as it cannot be proved that they are culpable. Perhaps that helps to show the difficulty. In this case they might sue for loss of earnings if they had a ban. This also favours producers cases over amateurs who cannot produce the threat of a loss of earnings court case. I suppose an amateur could try defamation of character but somehow this might not have the same ring. If TSR dope tested at our show and had a positive result we would strip the animal of the prize and fine the keeper ( ie person with day to day care) this is all we could do legally without risking above scenarios. However it is OK to publish the results after any appeal process has concluded. Last season saw a high profile case where they admitted negligence but as anyone can see from this seasons results it has had minimum impact. A knotty problem indeed !
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Post by Rife on Sept 21, 2018 7:25:43 GMT
Whilst I do understand the difficulties the answer,surely, is not to ignore the problem. And please believe me I am not accusing the TSR of ignoring it.
It would appear that in not addressing the problem in recent years it has allowed it to get seriously out of control. We are now in a situation whereby industrial scale doping/cheating/animal abuse is the norm!
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Post by Rife on Sept 21, 2018 7:26:02 GMT
Whilst I do understand the difficulties the answer,surely, is not to ignore the problem. And please believe me I am not accusing the TSR of ignoring it.
It would appear that in not addressing the problem in recent years it has allowed it to get seriously out of control. We are now in a situation whereby industrial scale doping/cheating/animal abuse is the norm!
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Post by gillwales on Sept 21, 2018 10:09:20 GMT
Whilst I do understand the difficulties the answer,surely, is not to ignore the problem. And please believe me I am not accusing the TSR of ignoring it. It would appear that in not addressing the problem in recent years it has allowed it to get seriously out of control. We are now in a situation whereby industrial scale doping/cheating/animal abuse is the norm! What is your suggestion onto how to fix it? A practical one please
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Post by Rife on Sept 21, 2018 11:07:08 GMT
I do not profess to have all the answers...
The starting point has to be the societies recognising that this is going on, and this seems to be the most difficult problem at the moment.
Beyond that transparency, testing and penalties…
I think that chelseah01 has a point in that perhaps the problem is best tackled from the top of the game, so at HOYS.
I also think that any failed tests should be made public, names should be named and, if you can’t ban, then very large fines put towards future testing.
More than anything I think, for the sake of our ponies, this has to stop
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Post by gillwales on Sept 21, 2018 14:14:46 GMT
I know that in humans hair can be tested to see if a person has used illegal substances in the previous 6 months, if this can be done in equines maybe this is the way to go for every entry to HOYS with the cost of the testing being included in the entry fee. I strongly feel that anyone who dopes a horse or pony deliberately should have a life ban, plus Police should consider criminal charges especially if a child is riding as it could react badly to a drug and is therefore at risk.
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Post by Rife on Sept 21, 2018 14:45:34 GMT
I know that in humans hair can be tested to see if a person has used illegal substances in the previous 6 months, if this can be done in equines maybe this is the way to go for every entry to HOYS with the cost of the testing being included in the entry fee. I strongly feel that anyone who dopes a horse or pony deliberately should have a life ban, plus Police should consider criminal charges especially if a child is riding as it could react badly to a drug and is therefore at risk. This just can’t possibly work as it is not against the rules to use drugs for vets visits, dentist etc you just can’t use them within the timeframe for competing, as such a hair test can not prove anything. I would love to see a life ban but this is never going to happen, we have to be realistic. You have to accept you have a problem before you can fix it and at the moment that is the sticking point
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Sept 21, 2018 18:57:01 GMT
I know that in humans hair can be tested to see if a person has used illegal substances in the previous 6 months, if this can be done in equines maybe this is the way to go for every entry to HOYS with the cost of the testing being included in the entry fee. I strongly feel that anyone who dopes a horse or pony deliberately should have a life ban, plus Police should consider criminal charges especially if a child is riding as it could react badly to a drug and is therefore at risk. This just can’t possibly work as it is not against the rules to use drugs for vets visits, dentist etc you just can’t use them within the timeframe for competing, as such a hair test can not prove anything. I would love to see a life ban but this is never going to happen, we have to be realistic. You have to accept you have a problem before you can fix it and at the moment that is the sticking point
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Post by gillwales on Sept 22, 2018 15:29:14 GMT
This just can’t possibly work as it is not against the rules to use drugs for vets visits, dentist etc you just can’t use them within the timeframe for competing, as such a hair test can not prove anything. I would love to see a life ban but this is never going to happen, we have to be realistic. You have to accept you have a problem before you can fix it and at the moment that is the sticking point Well it is accepted in a court of law for humans so why would it not work for equines? ( Re hair samples ) Basically it boils down to my old mantra, if you want something changed to need to submit it to the AGM of the Societies you are involved in, drum up support and go to the AGMs. If enough people are behind it, it will change.
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Post by janetbushell on Sept 22, 2018 15:54:42 GMT
Well it is accepted in a court of law for humans so why would it not work for equines? ( Re hair samples ) Basically it boils down to my old mantra, if you want something changed to need to submit it to the AGM of the Societies you are involved in, drum up support and go to the AGMs. If enough people are behind it, it will change. In a court of law the substance is always an illegal substance when used as evidence. However "illegal " substances for showing can be legally prescribed by veterinary surgeons & hair samples are not accurate for the time frame when the substance was used
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Sept 22, 2018 19:44:41 GMT
Well it is accepted in a court of law for humans so why would it not work for equines? ( Re hair samples ) Basically it boils down to my old mantra, if you want something changed to need to submit it to the AGM of the Societies you are involved in, drum up support and go to the AGMs. If enough people are behind it, it will change. In a court of law the substance is always an illegal substance when used as evidence. However "illegal " substances for showing can be legally prescribed by veterinary surgeons & hair samples are not accurate for the time frame when the substance was used Okay - I fully agree substances can be legally prescribed by vets as they can by doctors in athletes. However, is there not a cut off point on both where it is for a medicinal purpose - legal - or to mask a problem - illegal. Surely it is wrong on every level that an animal is competing under something which can enhance a performance. Surely we should be looking at showing as a sport and keeping it as clean as we can. I feel that the argument about stopping someone's livelihood is challengeable as so many other industries are changing!
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Post by janetbushell on Sept 22, 2018 20:32:36 GMT
In a court of law the substance is always an illegal substance when used as evidence. However "illegal " substances for showing can be legally prescribed by veterinary surgeons & hair samples are not accurate for the time frame when the substance was used Okay - I fully agree substances can be legally prescribed by vets as they can by doctors in athletes. However, is there not a cut off point on both where it is for a medicinal purpose - legal - or to mask a problem - illegal. Surely it is wrong on every level that an animal is competing under something which can enhance a performance. Surely we should be looking at showing as a sport and keeping it as clean as we can. I feel that the argument about stopping someone's livelihood is challengeable as so many other industries are changing! Yes there is a stipulated withdrawal time on medication prescribed by vets but the point I was making to gillwales was that hair samples could not accurately provide this
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Post by Realistic on Sept 23, 2018 9:12:36 GMT
I am not denying there is a problem, I believe there has always been one and I am sure new drugs come on the market for those 'in the know' all the time however I do see Janet and TSR's points re banning and the legal system. Showing societies certainly have their own procedures but these are not legal bodies. Also whilst I would not disagree with a life ban, realistically if Russia can now be readmitted to world athletics after a few years what hope would we have with showing!!!
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Post by gillwales on Sept 23, 2018 10:26:51 GMT
I can understand what Janetb is saying, however there are substances which are totally banned regardless of if a Vet prescribes them, and if a horse needs treatment using these substances then it should be down to the owners to prove that they are clean to compete rather than the other way around. Hair samples show what a has been used for the previous 6 months, so you are not talking about a lifetime. We do need to make the consequences of being caught so severe that it puts people off of taking the risk of being caught. Anyway it was a feasible suggestion rather than "this is what we must do"
I do feel that if a person makes a complaint about a situation they should at least try to think of a sensible solution rather than expect other people to sort things out.
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Post by sallie on Sept 25, 2018 6:43:31 GMT
he Showing Council is trying to get all its members to agree on procedures and penalties but it is not all encompassing ( TSR cannot be a member) RoR , SSADL etc are outside the scope of any initiative they try to put together. At the moment I am sure alcohol is not tested for. question why cant these societies join the showing council?- they are societies which we pay a membership to also love the comment in TSR post re the Dope tester sitting with the exhibitors - not very professional at all , just the same a Windsor that year Gillwales - there have been lots of ideas as how to stop it but until the "BIG 4" Societies get a handle on it nothing will be done
IMO Dope Testing should be done by a totally independent person, not a member of a societies hierarchy's this would be more transparent, and totally agree a couple of pounds on a membership to help pay would be a good way forward after all we pay RI Levies ,HOYS Levies and First Aid at least people are talking about this problem
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Post by chelseah01 on Sept 25, 2018 9:13:43 GMT
"I do feel that if a person makes a complaint about a situation they should at least try to think of a sensible solution rather than expect other people to sort things out."
I don't think this kind of comment is helpful, I believe that, in general, people come on here to gauge other people’s opinions either before starting a complaint or after having got nowhere with the societies complains procedure.
I think, as Sallie says, at least people are talking about this and one of the societies is listening!
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Post by sallie on Sept 25, 2018 9:43:24 GMT
You have to accept you have a problem before you can fix it and at the moment that is the sticking point
very very well said - this is the problem none of the BIG 4 admit there is a doping problem, until they do am afraid we just might be banging our heads against a brick wall
when all the hoha over big Ponies/Horses and HOYS did a spot measuring and a few were caught and we did for a time see less and less big animals just look at the JMB website and see how few now are being measured out until shows like HOYS and RI ban for 1 year say competing at their shows it might just might stop and make the dopers think twice i applaud the JMB for doing dope tests at measuring , but we are taking about animals in the ring
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Post by gillwales on Sept 25, 2018 10:31:09 GMT
"I do feel that if a person makes a complaint about a situation they should at least try to think of a sensible solution rather than expect other people to sort things out." I don't think this kind of comment is helpful, I believe that, in general, people come on here to gauge other people’s opinions either before starting a complaint or after having got nowhere with the societies complains procedure. I think, as Sallie says, at least people are talking about this and one of the societies is listening! I said what I did because of the number of "Guests" that come on here and bellyache, without making any contribution to sorting out a problem. So if you and Sallie are right then the way to deal with the problem is if you believe that a pony has been doped then go to the secretary of the show, put your money where your mouth is and make a compliant. That or write to your society and ask them questions, go to the AGM's, the local area meetings. Get involved; please don't just moan and expect everyone else to sort out the problem.
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Post by sallie on Sept 25, 2018 10:39:49 GMT
Gillwales you cant go and put your money down and ask for a dope test - it has to be done by the societies, as not every show has a dope testing box and a vet on stand by just in case
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Post by sallie on Sept 25, 2018 10:59:52 GMT
Also i dont think anyone is standing by, it is raised at meeting i know cause i was there, it is not a offence that can be sorted by 1 person ie JMB but it has to be by societies
GillWales , i find lots of your input very helpful and knowledgeable , but in this case i find your tone rather aggressive and condescending , maybe its just me
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 25, 2018 11:20:51 GMT
when all the hoha over big Ponies/Horses and HOYS did a spot measuring and a few were caught and we did for a time see less and less big animals just look at the JMB website and see how few now are being measured out until shows like HOYS and RI ban for 1 year say competing at their shows it might just might stop and make the dopers think twice i applaud the JMB for doing dope tests at measuring , but we are taking about animals in the ring Thank you for applauding the JMB for substance testing at ordinary Measurements. However, if I may, on behalf of the JMB I feel it's important to clarify the abovementioned 'spot measuring' at HOYS (as you describe it here). For a couple of seasons and, well over a decade ago, the JMB was 'allowed' to recall/re-measure all Champions at HOYS - providing they were 7 years or over and in possession of a FULL Certificate. If the Champion was younger / held an Annual certificate, the Reserve, if on a Full Cert, was the animal that was asked to be re-measured. This was not initiated by HOYS, but by the JMB acting with and on behalf of its Member Societies.
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