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Post by Guest558 on Jul 19, 2019 21:52:31 GMT
I’m getting sick of all of this ‘feeling sorry’ for the people whose ponies have been objected against and banned due to being to big for the classes they are doing. If you’re pony is too tall for the class, then you shouldn’t be in it, period. Stick to the height you fit under, there are plenty of classes so you don’t need to cheat and pretend to be the right height. It’s unfair to everyone else in the class if your pony is clearly too big and therefore shouldn’t be in the class. Why cheat when you could just do the next height up and be amongst your equals. All these complaints about ‘mid-season’ objections are also irritating, it doesn’t matter when the objection is put in place, if your pony is too big, it’s too big. End of.
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Post by jakes87 on Jul 22, 2019 7:08:53 GMT
Unless they are grossly overweight I didnt think horses carried that much weight on top of the whither so it shouldnt matter really when they are measured. I think they should be called for remeasure anytimenof the year and still be the right height. At the end of the day the compete in the height restricted classes when in show ring ring condition so should meet the height limitations
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Post by titch on Jul 22, 2019 18:53:55 GMT
The winner of hoys part bred has just been measured out I believe. 1cm over height a very small amount.
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Post by gillwales on Jul 24, 2019 18:52:48 GMT
do you mean mm or cm? cm is half an inch, not a very small amount in my opinion
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Post by titch on Jul 24, 2019 21:04:46 GMT
The pony measured 149cm instead of 148cm. I’ve seen horses measured out by more than 3cm which is a huge amount. I reckon loads competing out there are over height. I used to compete in show cob classes on a cob that measured 153.9 cm and he was dwarfed by the others and he was a complete chunk with low withers.
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Post by leevale on Jul 25, 2019 5:33:59 GMT
It doesn't matter if the pony was 1cm or 10cm overheight if it was overheight. There is no point in having height limits if they are elastic.
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Post by moreneedstobedone on Jul 29, 2019 19:47:47 GMT
Considering the number of horses and ponies who have been measured the tiny number that are remeasured beggars belief. Looking on the JMB remeasurement results page you'd think there wasn't a problem, but we know there is and the problem is big. It appears the chances of being caught out with an overheight animal are very minimal.
Measuring out by a slither is unfortnate but 1cm ie nearly half an inch is a significant amount.
Not so significant an amount however as a pony regularly placed at HOYS however, advertised last year (to a non showing home only) at a whopping three inches overheight. In the ring for yers it had never been objected to or that I'm aware so how come it didn't look out of place alongside others in its class? How come it was shown for years after it got its full certificate without those associated with it not realising it was nearly a hand higher than it should have been?
JMB and societies appear to be doing absolutely NOTHING to address the issue. How many thousands have height certificates? And how many remeasurements per year? With those odds no wonder people cheat
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Post by Notanotherone on Aug 8, 2019 8:10:02 GMT
Yet another 14.2 objected to. Is someone planning to get rid of all of the good ones to have a chance with their mediocre pony I wonder!!!
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Post by leevale on Aug 8, 2019 9:05:00 GMT
I'm not sure why people are defending cheating. As I said earlier, there is no point in having height limits if they are elastic. If any animal that is objected to is the correct height for the classes entered they have nothing to worry about, and no amount of objecting will "get rid of the good ones."
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Post by jakes87 on Aug 8, 2019 10:54:14 GMT
So what if another been objected too. If it measures no harm done and just an inconvenience, if it measures out then tough it's too big and it's out of the class and shouldnt have been competing in it.
Half of this problem is to blame on judges. People wouldnt be so obsessed by upto height animals if the just as good smaller ponies ever got a look in other than the odd one or two. I'm trying to sell a shp no one cares as it's only 13.2 even though it's as good as any of its 143 counterparts
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Post by notanotherone on Aug 8, 2019 13:33:09 GMT
Not really 'just' an inconvenience. Say the two that were objected to just before RIHS both measured in (not sure whats happening with one of them as still says Pending on the JMB site). They would miss one of the biggest championship shows in the year for no justifiable reason. Both jockeys are in their last year of 14.2s so harsh that they would miss out. Totally understand one of them has measured out so that's irrelevant but it would be interesting to see the result from the other one when it is made public.
Yes there is a proportion of blame to be directed at the judges, BUT the ultimate blame lies with the vets who measure the animals in the first place, and the system which allows that measurement to be called into question. By allowing people to object to their own JMB registered vets, the JMB are admitting that there are flaws in the system yet don't appear to be doing anything about it!
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Post by notanotherone on Aug 9, 2019 12:29:33 GMT
Further more, the 14.2 which has been objected to now is unlikely to get re-measured before BSPS Champs (logistically speaking, it takes time for paperwork etc to get sorted). This makes me think it is another tactical objection as regardless whether it measures in or out, it wont be able to compete at the champs as wont be measured by then?
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Post by CarolineNelson on Aug 11, 2019 21:15:55 GMT
Under BSPS Rules, if an animal is first measured at - say - 4 or 5 yrs, it doesn't need to attend another measuring until it goes for its Full Certificate at 7. Unless it is fairly unique, it will have grown and matured in those interim years.
Also under recent BSPS Rules, (from 2018), unless a pony (Show or SHP) is being campaigned for RIHS or HOYS, it does not need a certificate at all.
Animals which contest the "Part-Bred 148cm HOYS class" are not requested to be measured (unless also shown at RIHS / HOYS level, as above).
It needs to be remembered that "The JMB" is - can, and will only be - as strong as its various Member Societies / Associations which use Height as their median. This obviously includes British Showjumping (ponies) and the Pony Racing Authority. It isn't just about showing.
Therefore, JMB does not have 'standalone authority' - as described above and cannot have 'blame' laid at its door.
Because, if horses and ponies were purchased within the height required, instead of some purchasers taking a very risky gamble on buying up-to-height animals which are still to furnish and mature, there would be less folk 'winging it' from the off-set of an animal's career.
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Post by jakes87 on Aug 14, 2019 9:58:04 GMT
Well whoever's objected against Ellis 14.2 wasted their money didnt they
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Post by Notanotherone on Aug 14, 2019 13:29:09 GMT
Well whoever's objected against Ellis 14.2 wasted their money didnt they Definitely. But what a shame this pony had to miss the RIHS, and Ellis lose out on her last 14.2 ride there for nothing.
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Post by therumourmill on Aug 28, 2019 20:08:36 GMT
Word on the street is a 14hh is also being watched ………………………….
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should be correct height
Guest
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Post by should be correct height on Aug 29, 2019 7:27:24 GMT
see from the latest list that another pony has been pulled from the same vet -i welcome the crack down on over height ponies/horses,
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Post by Notanotherone on Sept 1, 2019 17:14:37 GMT
see from the latest list that another pony has been pulled from the same vet -i welcome the crack down on over height ponies/horses, I agree that animals should be the right height for the class they enter, whatever age, time of year etc it is. However, I totally disagree with how the process stands with people able to tactically object to ponies height in order to stop them showing at big finals. The smallland pony is the perfect example - couldn’t go to RIHS due to the objection but measured in and so missed the finals it had qualified for for no good reason.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 2, 2019 10:45:17 GMT
see from the latest list that another pony has been pulled from the same vet -i welcome the crack down on over height ponies/horses, I agree that animals should be the right height for the class they enter, whatever age, time of year etc it is. However, I totally disagree with how the process stands with people able to tactically object to ponies height in order to stop them showing at big finals. The smallland pony is the perfect example - couldn’t go to RIHS due to the objection but measured in and so missed the finals it had qualified for for no good reason. Please read what I had written above (some weeks ago!) - and the corrective letter supplied to H&H by the Secretary of the JMB, which refers to logistical anomalies in the column written by Rebecca Penny (15th August), where she incorrectly stated that "animals which are the subject of an objection are unable to compete until they are re-measured". There is NO such JMB ruling which forbids an animal from continuing to compete immediately (ie:within the 20-working day period) after the owner has been notified that an objection has been lodged. The animal must attend the re-measurement within the stipulated 20-working-day period. If it does not, only then does the animal's current Height Cert become null & void - until the animal is re-measured. All of this information is clearly seen on the JMB website. perhaps when scouring the JMB's list for 're-measurements', interested parties could also search other - (more boring?!) parts of the Rules and Regulations, familiarise themselves with the correct rulings and thus not create confusion!
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Post by jakes87 on Sept 2, 2019 10:54:57 GMT
I agree that animals should be the right height for the class they enter, whatever age, time of year etc it is. However, I totally disagree with how the process stands with people able to tactically object to ponies height in order to stop them showing at big finals. The smallland pony is the perfect example - couldn’t go to RIHS due to the objection but measured in and so missed the finals it had qualified for for no good reason. Please read what I had written above (some weeks ago!) - and the corrective letter supplied to H&H by the Secretary of the JMB, which refers to logistical anomalies in the column written by Rebecca Penny (15th August), where she incorrectly stated that "animals which are the subject of an objection are unable to compete until they are re-measured". There is NO such JMB ruling which forbids an animal from continuing to compete immediately (ie:within the 20-working day period) after the owner has been notified that an objection has been lodged. The animal must attend the re-measurement within the stipulated 20-working-day period. If it does not, only then does the animal's current Height Cert become null & void - until the animal is re-measured. All of this information is clearly seen on the JMB website. perhaps when scouring the JMB's list for 're-measurements', interested parties could also search other - (more boring?!) parts of the Rules and Regulations, familiarise themselves with the correct rulings and thus not create confusion! I've never read the ins and outs of objections as it never affected me. I always just assumed people stopped competing as they couldn't. But I guess it's in attempt to try and strip the ponies back abit for remeasurement
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 2, 2019 11:58:12 GMT
. . . . . . which, in an ideal world, shouldn't be necessary if the animal is the correct height - the connections should have nothing to fear!!
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Post by jakes87 on Sept 4, 2019 13:19:14 GMT
. . . . . . which, in an ideal world, shouldn't be necessary if the animal is the correct height - the connections should have nothing to fear!! exactly
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should be the correct height
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Post by should be the correct height on Sept 5, 2019 6:45:53 GMT
Well said C.N wise words My view is if they stop showing its because they must be trying to strip it back , have heard some horror stories , also i am led to understand they send these poor animals away to "some person who specialises in getting them in" heaven knows what they do and its these people who take them to be re measured, is this correct practice? or sharp practice? also noticed a couple which are on the list have not been measured yet and its well over the 21 working days , how come?
A couple of years ago a few ponies were pulled and they went the next week and were measured in easily, so surley if as people have already said your are ok for height you just go , i must be very naive
Have to say i think the JMB do a great job, and it really is a thankless task i applaud you now just have to get the doping sorted- i can but dream
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should be the correct height
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Post by should be the correct height on Sept 5, 2019 10:40:06 GMT
Update
see the pony that was Res champ at this years RI has been measured out by 2cms ! its now 140 instead of a 138.o SP
i feel for the child in 3rd in that class on that day = maybe the pony grew 2cms after the RI
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Sept 6, 2019 6:35:25 GMT
I agree that animals should be the right height for the class they enter, whatever age, time of year etc it is. However, I totally disagree with how the process stands with people able to tactically object to ponies height in order to stop them showing at big finals. The smallland pony is the perfect example - couldn’t go to RIHS due to the objection but measured in and so missed the finals it had qualified for for no good reason. Please read what I had written above (some weeks ago!) - and the corrective letter supplied to H&H by the Secretary of the JMB, which refers to logistical anomalies in the column written by Rebecca Penny (15th August), where she incorrectly stated that "animals which are the subject of an objection are unable to compete until they are re-measured". There is NO such JMB ruling which forbids an animal from continuing to compete immediately (ie:within the 20-working day period) after the owner has been notified that an objection has been lodged. The animal must attend the re-measurement within the stipulated 20-working-day period. If it does not, only then does the animal's current Height Cert become null & void - until the animal is re-measured. All of this information is clearly seen on the JMB website. perhaps when scouring the JMB's list for 're-measurements', interested parties could also search other - (more boring?!) parts of the Rules and Regulations, familiarise themselves with the correct rulings and thus not create confusion! I have to say, I was always under the impression that an animal was not allowed to compete until it had been re-measured. Personally, I think that if they have been recalled they should not be allowed to compete, but as has been mentioned this would allow those with a few spare £600 to lay there money down and tactically object just prior to HOYS or RI!
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 6, 2019 10:13:09 GMT
Please read what I had written above (some weeks ago!) - and the corrective letter supplied to H&H by the Secretary of the JMB, which refers to logistical anomalies in the column written by Rebecca Penny (15th August), where she incorrectly stated that "animals which are the subject of an objection are unable to compete until they are re-measured". There is NO such JMB ruling which forbids an animal from continuing to compete immediately (ie: within the 20-working day period) after the owner has been notified that an objection has been lodged. The animal must attend the re-measurement within the stipulated 20-working-day period. If it does not, only then does the animal's current Height Cert become null & void - until the animal is re-measured. All of this information is clearly seen on the JMB website. perhaps when scouring the JMB's list for 're-measurements', interested parties could also search other - (more boring?!) parts of the Rules and Regulations, familiarise themselves with the correct rulings and thus not create confusion! I have to say, I was always under the impression that an animal was not allowed to compete until it had been re-measured. Personally, I think that if they have been recalled they should not be allowed to compete, but as has been mentioned this would allow those with a few spare £600 to lay their money down and tactically object just prior to HOYS or RI! Perhaps its a good thing that people don't read the rules! I jest not. . . . . However, to be fair, there are probably fewer 'tactical objections' than is realised and, as can easily be seen from the small numbers on the JMB website, very few competition horses and ponies are called for re-measurement per/annum. The fact remains that, if the animal starts and finishes its season (whether this be Junior Showjumping, Pony Racing or Showing) within the height limits as laid down by its governing body (by which I mean, the Society or Association with which it holds "competition" Registration) then the connections of any animal are being honest and should have nothing to worry about. There are some Societies which are more pro-active than others in seeking a level playing field, as it were, for all competitors and they are to be applauded. Unfortunately, there are just a very few trainers/agents/owners/connections (call them whatever suits!) who, one would wonder how they can get an honest and restful nights sleep. This comment would also relate to the use of illegal substances, not just to those competing an animal which does not fit its classification height-wise. To conclude, I agree wholeheartedly with " guest558" who commenced this thread.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Sept 6, 2019 11:41:08 GMT
The way I had always read the rule was that if you were recalled for measurement, and that did not happen within the 21 days that then invalidated the height certificate, therefore if you were competing in a class where a valid height certificate was required you could not compete as you did not fulfill the criteria. Some years ago whilst competing in workers a pony was recalled out of our height class 4 weeks before champs, it did not present for remeasuring - won and was placed all week at champs and then proceeded to measure out by a number of cms! There were a number of complaints from competitors, obviously we had all mis-interpreted that rule. Perhaps that rule needs some clarification with the societies!
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 6, 2019 15:56:45 GMT
The way I had always read the rule was that if you were recalled for measurement, and that did not happen within the 21 days that then invalidated the height certificate, therefore if you were competing in a class where a valid height certificate was required you could not compete as you did not fulfill the criteria. Some years ago whilst competing in workers a pony was recalled out of our height class 4 weeks before champs, it did not present for remeasuring - won and was placed all week at champs and then proceeded to measure out by a number of cms! There were a number of complaints from competitors, obviously we had all mis-interpreted that rule. Perhaps that rule needs some clarification with the societies![/i] Going on your last two sentences, which for convenience I have changed in this quote to italics, you would prefer that an animal cannot compete once an objection has been lodged. Unfortunately, there is disparity here - I can see where you are coming from. In a way, what ever might be decided in any future discussion about this rule (I am hypothesising, there are no plans either way, before my words are wrongly quoted!) its a case of 'couldn't/can't do right for doing wrong'! Vis-à-vis - a recent situation - a certain animal could in fact have competed at a certain large show - It was re-measured (within the 20-working days) just after said show. There has been, in social media and the press, much sadness and wringing of hands that it couldn't compete, although in fact it could have done so. But, if it had measured out upon re-measurement (which it didn't) then the feelings would have been very different - mirroring as you have described in your situation above. Catch .22 situation.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Sept 7, 2019 10:14:05 GMT
The way I had always read the rule was that if you were recalled for measurement, and that did not happen within the 21 days that then invalidated the height certificate, therefore if you were competing in a class where a valid height certificate was required you could not compete as you did not fulfill the criteria. Some years ago whilst competing in workers a pony was recalled out of our height class 4 weeks before champs, it did not present for remeasuring - won and was placed all week at champs and then proceeded to measure out by a number of cms! There were a number of complaints from competitors, obviously we had all mis-interpreted that rule. Perhaps that rule needs some clarification with the societies![/i] Going on your last two sentences, which for convenience I have changed in this quote to italics, you would prefer that an animal cannot compete once an objection has been lodged. Unfortunately, there is disparity here - I can see where you are coming from. In a way, what ever might be decided in any future discussion about this rule (I am hypothesising, there are no plans either way, before my words are wrongly quoted!) its a case of 'couldn't/can't do right for doing wrong'! Vis-à-vis - a recent situation - a certain animal could in fact have competed at a certain large show - It was re-measured (within the 20-working days) just after said show. There has been, in social media and the press, much sadness and wringing of hands that it couldn't compete, although in fact it could have done so. But, if it had measured out upon re-measurement (which it didn't) then the feelings would have been very different - mirroring as you have described in your situation above. Catch .22 situation. [/quote] It is catch 22 - but if we are to abide by the rules, there should be clarity. If a horse/pony is put forward for re-measurement within 21 days and measures - or not, fine - however, if the rules state a valid height certificate is required to compete within a class and the JMB give you 21 days to re-measure or your height certificate becomes invalid, I fail to see how an animal can compete in a class requiring a measurement if it has not been put forward within the timescale as the height certificate is surely then invalid. I appreciate that it can still compete in a class where a height certificate is not required.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Sept 8, 2019 17:49:39 GMT
[/i] Going on your last two sentences, which for convenience I have changed in this quote to italics, you would prefer that an animal cannot compete once an objection has been lodged. Unfortunately, there is disparity here - I can see where you are coming from. In a way, what ever might be decided in any future discussion about this rule (I am hypothesising, there are no plans either way, before my words are wrongly quoted!) its a case of 'couldn't/can't do right for doing wrong'! Vis-à-vis - a recent situation - a certain animal could in fact have competed at a certain large show - It was re-measured (within the 20-working days) just after said show. There has been, in social media and the press, much sadness and wringing of hands that it couldn't compete, although in fact it could have done so. But, if it had measured out upon re-measurement (which it didn't) then the feelings would have been very different - mirroring as you have described in your situation above. Catch .22 situation. [/quote] It is catch 22 - but if we are to abide by the rules, there should be clarity. If a horse/pony is put forward for re-measurement within 21 days and measures - or not, fine - however, if the rules state a valid height certificate is required to compete within a class and the JMB give you 21 days to re-measure or your height certificate becomes invalid, I fail to see how an animal can compete in a class requiring a measurement if it has not been put forward within the timescale as the height certificate is surely then invalid. I appreciate that it can still compete in a class where a height certificate is not required.[/quote] 1 ) - To repeat, the time-scale is 20 Working days from the owner being advised that a re-meas is required - and the animal must be presented within that time. It is NOT 21 days - the '20-working days' must be brought into the equation - this has weekends in it so should in all reality offer plenty of time to 'prepare' the animal! 2) - If the animal has not been presented for re-meas within that 20-Working day timescale (this really gives a good amount of time for any animal to be taken for a re-measurement). . . . then it's HC becomes invalid. Obviously I'm not familiar with the circumstance that you quoted earlier, from some years ago (pony competing in a WHP class) so can't comment on whether that particular animal was able to compete or not. If the animal was considered (by the "ringside police"!) to be 'not eligible to be competing' then something should have been said by those 'who thought it was not eligible to compete' to the relevant Society's Secretary at the time. (ie: an objection laid down). To be honest, it's water under a bridge, as it seems some years ago now.
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