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Post by FingersCrossed on Jan 13, 2020 12:18:10 GMT
With the measuring season upon us I can only hope that we have fair play from them this season. NO Bribes, No Over Measures Just plain old Rules are Rules if its over the height then it goes out of that class no if's or but's
This caused so much grief in 2019 and hope they play ball this year
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Post by nst0708 on Jan 14, 2020 17:42:37 GMT
We can only hope! Its such a shame this is allowed to happen from a big player in the equine world. No doubt this wont be the first or last thread on this subject this season.
I hope if anyone has any concerns about the height of a pony they raise them early and not a few weeks from a championship date
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Post by chelseah01 on Jan 17, 2020 15:08:40 GMT
We can only hope! Its such a shame this is allowed to happen from a big player in the equine world. No doubt this wont be the first or last thread on this subject this season. I hope if anyone has any concerns about the height of a pony they raise them early and not a few weeks from a championship date Last summer, when this debate was kick-started, I felt the timing of the recall for measurement was unfair, ruining a pony and child’s chance to compete at a prestigious event. That was until I familiarised myself with the rules. I feel disappointed at the misinformation being spoken about tactical recalling for measurement. I would suggest that people read the rules like myself, I am aware in saying this that I sound like a few of the other posters on here, but you can only object to a height measurement if you have competed against an animal and the objection must be made within 21 days of the class, see below. 44. Objection and Re-Measurement - Reporting 1. When an objection is made under Rule 42.1.(i), against an animal the Objector must inform The Joint Measurement Board Limited of the Objection by First Class Letter or email within 21 days of the class or race. Details of the animal’s name, the class or race and show or race meeting involved and the name and address of its owner must be included together with the fee (Rule 26.5) and documentary evidence that this animal and the Objector's animal were in the class or race must be enclosed. This means that the recall may have been tactical, or (arguably more likely) the objector may not have had a choice. I also strongly believe that all of the complaining and finger pointing by competitors and certain societies is a massive smoke screen to try to divert the attention from the rule breaker to the objector. Take a moment to think about this and who is in the wrong? Surely it cannot be the person/people who have put their money down, following the correct objection procedures, had an animal remeasured and proved that the animal is over height. Many it would seem feel this is the person in the wrong. Now let’s forget all the talk of tactical “calling” and hope that exhibitors can play by the rules.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jan 17, 2020 15:37:19 GMT
With the measuring season upon us I can only hope that we have fair play from them this season; NO Bribes, No Over Measures Just plain old Rules are Rules if its over the height then it goes out of that class no if's or but's This caused so much grief in 2019 and hope they play ball this year Hello! Very well said. May I ask - please could you clarify . . . When you say (and here I quote) ". . . I can only hope that we have fair play from them this season . . . .etc" - just to be clear, who/which party are you referring to as " them"? The JMB Office? (Staff are scrupulous) The Board of Stewards, who have been nominated by and thus represent their various Societies and Associations? (and are scrupulous) The Official Measurers (who's premises are regularly Inspected, who are approved on an annual basis and, the bottom line - and CAN ONLY MEASURE WHAT IS PRESENTED TO THEM and HOW IT IS PRESENTED TO THEM)? These are, after all, highly Professional individuals. Or, the people who present the animals . . . ? So - as for the last mentioned category, this again splits into smaller groups:- i) The first-time owner, possibly nervous and naïve, who would greatly benefit from reading the very simple, sensible guidelines in the JMB Rules (Appendix) " Preparing the Horse or Pony for Measurement" - and spend time preparing their pony properly - this includes logical tips such as travelling practice to new, strange environments and, (sounds simple but is fundamental) teaching the pony to stand still without fussing - plus, the human involved, holding the pony calmly without stressing! ii) The experienced 'professional' owner/agent/producer/trainer who has done the preparation soundly (and is genuine) iii) The experienced owner/agent/producer/trainer who has done the necessary preparation very, very soundly, shall we say. Sometimes the services of the next category are sought - and handsomely paid for. iv) The "measuring preparer" - those (few) in this category are sent animals especially to be prepared for the day of measuring. Some are genuine horsemen or women. Some are unfortunately, extremely unscrupulous - some are involved in the very lucrative junior Showjumping world. When an animal is booked in for measuring, the Approved Measurer, a Veterinary Surgeon with a busy, obviously challenging day job, will treat the time of measuring with respect, but the booking is another part of the day's diary. The Measuring Vet earns considerably less per measure than if he or she were out on call or operating so, measuring is offered as a service. Therefore, it is morally incorrect, please people, to lump all measuring Vets in the same category and consider them 'bent'. NO Veterinary surgeon would surely contemplate accepting a 'bribe' (as mentioned above) and put their hard earned Qualification at risk. Thus, the preparation, presentation AND BY WHOM, is key. Note: All Veterinary surgeons who are Approved by the JMB (it is an Annual appointment) are fully supported by the JMB at all times. A blood sample will be taken (with permission of the person in charge of the animal, of course - and after the measuring has taken place) if 'indiscretions' are suspected - this is sent to the JMB and onward for analysis. Blood samples are of course taken at all Re-Measurements. It is also worth noting that the majority of Societies and Associations take rule-breaking in any form very seriously and most are extremely proactive. For further advice, information and guidance, here are the contact details: a dmin@thejmbonline.co.uk / www.thejmbonline.co.uk / tel: 01293 862 101
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Post by Measurement on Jan 18, 2020 23:15:01 GMT
If the Societies and Associations are so very proactive, why are there so few remeasurements?
I believe the Societies themselves can request that an animal is remeasured, yet this happens very few times. I state this with confidence, with a mere thirteen remeasured in total last year, and only ten the year before.
Take away the remeasurements as a result of objections, and that doesn't smack of Societies being very proactive to me, but rather the opposite. Why can't it be mandatory for each Society to randomly recall a small percentage of horses and ponies for remeasurement annually? And for all RI/HOYS winners to be measured after their win? Sure the latter did used to happen, or for a year or two.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jan 19, 2020 9:19:58 GMT
If the Societies and Associations are so very proactive, why are there so few remeasurements? I believe the Societies themselves can request that an animal is remeasured, yet this happens very few times. I state this with confidence, with a mere thirteen remeasured in total last year, and only ten the year before. Take away the remeasurements as a result of objections, and that doesn't smack of Societies being very proactive to me, but rather the opposite. Why can't it be mandatory for each Society to randomly recall a small percentage of horses and ponies for remeasurement annually? And for all RI/HOYS winners to be measured after their win? Sure the latter did used to happen, or for a year or two. Regarding proactivity, I believe I said the majority of Societies and Associations . . are proactive etc. Some basic stats - In the last six years, the JMB processed over 19,500 measurements; during this time, 85 re-measurements were undertaken. Naturally, these were not just show animals, but racing and jumping ponies, too. Many were Society/Association driven. You mention standard re-measurements post HOYS and indeed, a couple of decades ago, re-measurements were carried out of all Full certificate holders which won at HOYS (or the Reserve, if the winner was still on an Annual cert..) However, The Board was asked to refrain from doing this. It would assist the measurement debate greatly if the seeming desire to have an animal 'up-to-height' was not the vogue. A good little 'un can beat a big 'un and often does. But in so many ads do we see the same words "must be up to height . ."
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Post by snowman on Jan 20, 2020 11:51:30 GMT
There are a couple of changes the JMB could make that may help -
Don’t allow measuring to begin until March/April of that given year
Owners register their animals to be measured for that year, the JMB issue the measuring date window
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Post by chelseah01 on Jan 20, 2020 13:09:48 GMT
There are a couple of changes the JMB could make that may help - Don’t allow measuring to begin until March/April of that given year Owners register their animals to be measured for that year, the JMB issue the measuring date window now that's not silly!
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Post by INAPERFECT WORLD on Jan 20, 2020 16:17:26 GMT
Oh how I would love to agree with you Caroline that the vets measuring are ALL professional and yes their qualifications are, but in the real world we all know what goes on in SOME measurement centres I've already been told this year that one pony is travelling a few hundred miles to be measured because he will get a guaranteed measure. I will wait with baited breath to de whether it does.
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Post by janetbushell on Jan 20, 2020 16:51:23 GMT
There are a couple of changes the JMB could make that may help - Don’t allow measuring to begin until March/April of that given year Owners register their animals to be measured for that year, the JMB issue the measuring date window now that's not silly! But what about the qualifiers that require height certificates that start in March/April? - very hard to get shoes off & on in the same week as the show you want to attend
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jan 20, 2020 20:16:42 GMT
But what about the qualifiers that require height certificates that start in March/April? - very hard to get shoes off & on in the same week as the show you want to attend Plus - the Pony Racing season is at it's peak at the time mentioned, as it mostly links in with the Point-to-Point season - and British Showjumping (ref: ponies) obviously takes place all year round, there is no break. Please consider those who compete in sports other than just showing. The JMB Stewards consider all aspects - from all angles - and the whole must suit all of the 'Member Societies and Associations'.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jan 20, 2020 20:35:11 GMT
Oh how I would love to agree with you Caroline that the vets measuring are ALL professional and yes their qualifications are, but in the real world we all know what goes on in SOME measurement centres I've already been told this year that one pony is travelling a few hundred miles to be measured because he will get a guaranteed measure. I will wait with baited breath to de whether it does. Do tell me - (I quote) what goes on in SOME measuring centres - you say you have already been told this year . .etc . . This site isn't called Horse-Gossip for nothing but, before casting aspersions on an individual and possibly innocent Veterinary Surgeon, it would be worth contemplating to whom this animal will be / has been sent to prepare it and what they will do with it by way of 'preparation' prior to presenting it to the Vet. You (or your source) might be right. You or you source might not be right. As for 'baiting' the breath, in my humble opinion, Chinese whispers are the pits. Instead, by all means, if you feel your confidante is correct, do contact the JMB Secretary, or a Steward of the Board of the JMB / your Society/Association's nominated Representative. If you prefer to keep your information anonymous, that will of course be honoured. Indeed, GDPR precludes me from offering contact details, but details will be found within the JMB Website. If you became a 'member' of HorseGossip, you could of course send me a Private Message so that I could then action the information in the correct manner, as opposed to simply passing on some tongue wagging tattle via this site. If this event IS happening, it needs nipping in the bud, and quickly. If it isn't, then no harm done.
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Post by chelseah01 on Jan 21, 2020 12:03:02 GMT
But what about the qualifiers that require height certificates that start in March/April? - very hard to get shoes off & on in the same week as the show you want to attend Plus - the Pony Racing season is at it's peak at the time mentioned, as it mostly links in with the Point-to-Point season - and British Showjumping (ref: ponies) obviously takes place all year round, there is no break. Please consider those who compete in sports other than just showing. The JMB Stewards consider all aspects - from all angles - and the whole must suit all of the 'Member Societies and Associations'. You are both right, logistically it would not be possible, it just seemed that it might cut down on the “animal abuse” that is measurement “preparation”
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jan 21, 2020 15:39:20 GMT
Plus - the Pony Racing season is at it's peak at the time mentioned, as it mostly links in with the Point-to-Point season - and British Showjumping (ref: ponies) obviously takes place all year round, there is no break. Please consider those who compete in sports other than just showing. The JMB Stewards consider all aspects - from all angles - and the whole must suit all of the 'Member Societies and Associations'. You are both right, logistically it would not be possible, it just seemed that it might cut down on the “animal abuse” that is measurement “preparation” It is worth remembering that some - and here I very loosely say SOME animals may go through regular 'abuse' (to coin your expression), in the interests of being quiet for the show ring. What I can't understand is, in other equine disciplines (with the very public and very ugly exception, it seems, of International Endurance) Rules seem to be obeyed. For example - take Racing last Saturday. Champion jockey Richard Johnson was stood down for 4 days for excessive use of the whip at the a finish of a major race at Ascot. He accepted it. End of. So, in the same vein - if Society Rules state that an animal has to be X age, X height, X novice / X amateur / X open classification etc. etc. - you'll get the drift - then why do some people decide to flaunt those rules? And on occasion, manage to get away with it . . . . ?
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Post by nst0708 on Jan 21, 2020 16:09:04 GMT
Am I being naive in saying this maybe so but if it was just the registered owner that could present a pony for measuring surely we wouldn't have some of these situations discussed where people pay a producer or professional to measure for them. For example the registered owner must be shown on the passport and the owners personal travel passport or photo ID be shown before the horse is measured by the VET. If they didn't marry up then pony could not be measured
I know this sounds to straightforward so please correct me why if there isn't going to be a problem with a ponies height do we need to send them to a professional??
by the way you can tell ive never had to go through this ive always managed to buy ponies with LHC
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Post by leevale on Jan 21, 2020 17:28:28 GMT
Am I being naive in saying this maybe so but if it was just the registered owner that could present a pony for measuring surely we wouldn't have some of these situations discussed where people pay a producer or professional to measure for them. For example the registered owner must be shown on the passport and the owners personal travel passport or photo ID be shown before the horse is measured by the VET. If they didn't marry up then pony could not be measured I know this sounds to straightforward so please correct me why if there isn't going to be a problem with a ponies height do we need to send them to a professional?? by the way you can tell ive never had to go through this ive always managed to buy ponies with LHC One of my ponies was taken to be measured by my producer last week, (and measured in easily as I knew he would.) However, I would have had to have a day off work to travel with the pony, adding even more expense to an already expensive hobby. When you pay for the measuring, you state on the form who will be handling the pony, so I'm not sure what the owner accompanying the pony would achieve?
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jan 21, 2020 20:36:16 GMT
Am I being naive in saying this maybe so but if it was just the registered owner that could present a pony for measuring surely we wouldn't have some of these situations discussed where people pay a producer or professional to measure for them. For example the registered owner must be shown on the passport and the owners personal travel passport or photo ID be shown before the horse is measured by the VET. If they didn't marry up then pony could not be measured I know this sounds to straightforward so please correct me why if there isn't going to be a problem with a ponies height do we need to send them to a professional?? by the way you can tell ive never had to go through this ive always managed to buy ponies with LHC One of my ponies was taken to be measured by my producer last week, (and measured in easily as I knew he would.) However, I would have had to have a day off work to travel with the pony, adding even more expense to an already expensive hobby. When you pay for the measuring, you state on the form who will be handling the pony, so I'm not sure what the owner accompanying the pony would achieve? Leevale is correct; if the animal is at show/jumping/pony racing livery, it is logical that the animal's actual producer/trainer presents the animal for measuring on behalf of the owner. Added to which, not all owners are actually 'horse people' and might well not own/ not be unable to drive the vehicle, let alone present it calmly and accurately to the Measuring Vet! As a Producer, I had owners who lived the other side of the UK - some who lived abroad (ie. - Middle East!!) . . . . And to the honest, openly naïve previous poster - if you have bought your ponies with what you call a LHC - the expression "Life" went out with the dinosaurs. Once old enough and eligible, the Certificate is termed "FULL". Life sounds somewhat like a prison sentence!!
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Post by sjw87 on Jan 22, 2020 5:53:41 GMT
It's also worth noting that with measuring not being all that profitable for vets, and therefore some opting not to re-register with the JMB, some counties have now been left with no measurers. Add to that the restrictions on consecutive height certificates needing to be done by different measurers/at different measuring pads and you can start to understand why some people travel a seemingly long way for measurement.
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Post by known fact on Jan 22, 2020 7:14:38 GMT
It is a known fact that there are two vets people will travel 100s of miles for height certificates (only two I know of). As after out pony had grown between her annual and life I got told the same two vets by repeated people that I should of gone to get the height I wanted.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jan 22, 2020 8:02:37 GMT
It's also worth noting that with measuring not being all that profitable for vets, and therefore some opting not to re-register with the JMB, some counties have now been left with no measurers. Add to that the restrictions on consecutive height certificates needing to be done by different measurers/at different measuring pads and you can start to understand why some people travel a seemingly long way for measurement. Profit has less to do with it than time constraints - the Vets who are Approved Measurers offer Measuring as a 'service'. Those who it 'has been suggested' make a profit from measuring, are not re-registered.
The JMB, by strict auditing, has reduced the Panel over the last two decades from over 200 to under 100 measuring Vets. It has done so in an attempt to ensure accuracy and consistency. When a more 'elderly' Vet retires from their Practice, not all Practices replace them - can afford the time, or wish to make the effort to maintain a quality Pad which is in a quiet area and away from stimuli, as this naturally means the Practice has to be quiet within most of their premises, for around an hour, or much more if more are booked in! Some Measuring Vets kindly offer Measuring say - on a Saturday or in an evening, to allow for quiet. The JMB ensures that there are sufficient Measuring Pads within geographical regions. Not necessarily/specifically Counties though, depending on borders. But no animal should have to travel "hundreds of miles" . . .
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jan 22, 2020 8:10:50 GMT
It is a known fact that there are two vets people will travel 100s of miles for height certificates (only two I know of). As after out pony had grown between her annual and life I got told the same two vets by repeated people that I should of gone to get the height I wanted. "known fact" - How many years ago was this incident? It would be very helpful - if you have knowledge of this continuing NOW, rather than 'scandalmonger' on social media, please contact the JMB Office direct with your concerns. Thank you. Their e-mail address and phone number are below. They ensure anonymity, if that is your preference. admin@thejmbonline.co.uk / 01293 862 101
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Post by chelseah01 on Jan 22, 2020 8:57:45 GMT
This is an interesting thread and I would like to add that I believe it would be worth having the animal’s measurement history on the JMB site. Presently you can only see the current measurement and the vet’s practice that the measurement was taken.
I think it would be valuable to see the past measurements and the vet’s practices and also it would be interesting to see the vet and location at which recalled animals are taken, as this is not available on the JMB website at present, but I am reasonably confident that this could be added without too much disruption.
Although I am aware that the JMB are keeping an eye on where animals are taken and the distances they are travelling it would be great if the general public could access the full measurement history of all animals on the JMB site.
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Post by overatdaknee on Jan 22, 2020 9:23:40 GMT
It's also worth noting that with measuring not being all that profitable for vets, and therefore some opting not to re-register with the JMB, some counties have now been left with no measurers. Add to that the restrictions on consecutive height certificates needing to be done by different measurers/at different measuring pads and you can start to understand why some people travel a seemingly long way for measurement. Also, if you have bought, say, a pony that needs it's full certificate and will have already been measured on more than one occasion, a full history would help inadvertently booking in to a practise that had already measured it?
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jan 22, 2020 12:20:36 GMT
This is an interesting thread and I would like to add that I believe it would be worth having the animal’s measurement history on the JMB site. Presently you can only see the current measurement and the vet’s practice that the measurement was taken. I think it would be valuable to see the past measurements and the vet’s practices and also it would be interesting to see the vet and location at which recalled animals are taken, as this is not available on the JMB website at present, but I am reasonably confident that this could be added without too much disruption. Although I am aware that the JMB are keeping an eye on where animals are taken and the distances they are travelling it would be great if the general public could access the full measurement history of all animals on the JMB site. Once an animal has been re-measured (and on a Pad and with Referees selected specifically) it is immune from further re-call except by the instruction of the JMB Stewards. This, to my knowledge, has never and is never likely to happen. So, where and by whom it was re-measured is irrelevant. Are all the 'general public' so interested that they would really be bothered to want to view ALL past measuring history? An interesting concept. When purchasing a youngster on an Annual Cert, the Vendor in any case will have and should pass on its back history - inoculations, measuring, farrier etc.
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Post by known fact on Jan 23, 2020 11:00:12 GMT
It is a known fact that there are two vets people will travel 100s of miles for height certificates (only two I know of). As after out pony had grown between her annual and life I got told the same two vets by repeated people that I should of gone to get the height I wanted. "known fact" - How many years ago was this incident? It would be very helpful - if you have knowledge of this continuing NOW, rather than 'scandalmonger' on social media, please contact the JMB Office direct with your concerns. Thank you. Their e-mail address and phone number are below. They ensure anonymity, if that is your preference. admin@thejmbonline.co.uk / 01293 862 101 This only happened 12 months ago and non of what I've been told has come via social media or online it comes from the horses mouth of people that have used them.
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Post by nst0708 on Jan 23, 2020 13:18:30 GMT
very interesting thread. I have learned a lot Thank you
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Post by known fact on Jan 23, 2020 14:08:30 GMT
This is an interesting thread and I would like to add that I believe it would be worth having the animal’s measurement history on the JMB site. Presently you can only see the current measurement and the vet’s practice that the measurement was taken. I think it would be valuable to see the past measurements and the vet’s practices and also it would be interesting to see the vet and location at which recalled animals are taken, as this is not available on the JMB website at present, but I am reasonably confident that this could be added without too much disruption. Although I am aware that the JMB are keeping an eye on where animals are taken and the distances they are travelling it would be great if the general public could access the full measurement history of all animals on the JMB site. Once an animal has been re-measured (and on a Pad and with Referees selected specifically) it is immune from further re-call except by the instruction of the JMB Stewards. This, to my knowledge, has never and is never likely to happen. So, where and by whom it was re-measured is irrelevant. Are all the 'general public' so interested that they would really be bothered to want to view ALL past measuring history? An interesting concept. When purchasing a youngster on an Annual Cert, the Vendor in any case will have and should pass on its back history - inoculations, measuring, farrier etc. well this is useful to know our just measured out pony was always the smallest in the ring which is why we where so blaise about getting measured as thought no way in she will be out. £800 is alot of money to spend on a remeasure to then risked being objected to if the pony was then measured in
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jan 23, 2020 14:24:18 GMT
"known fact" - How many years ago was this incident? It would be very helpful - if you have knowledge of this continuing NOW, rather than 'scandalmonger' on social media, please contact the JMB Office direct with your concerns. Thank you. Their e-mail address and phone number are below. They ensure anonymity, if that is your preference. admin@thejmbonline.co.uk / 01293 862 101 This only happened 12 months ago and non of what I've been told has come via social media or online it comes from the horses mouth of people that have used them. Hello again, "Known Fact"! Yes, I understood that. Firstly, I wasn't suggesting that you had heard the information via social media. I was explaining that, instead of writing your thoughts on social media, you could pass the information directly to the very discrete Secretaries at the JMB Office. Information like this could be very helpful, but it can't be acted upon without evidence - and tattle helps not one iota, simply makes the waters muddier. Secondly, as explained, appointment of Official Measurers to the Panel is annual. And here is a thirdly! For everyone's interest and information, from one measurement to the next, if an obvious discrepancy appears (ie: dramatic reduction in height/ huge growth in height - from a previous measurement, all the factors surrounding this discrepancy are investigated.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jan 23, 2020 14:40:58 GMT
Once an animal has been re-measured (and on a Pad and with Referees selected specifically) it is immune from further re-call except by the instruction of the JMB Stewards. This, to my knowledge, has never and is never likely to happen. So, where and by whom it was re-measured is irrelevant. Are all the 'general public' so interested that they would really be bothered to want to view ALL past measuring history? An interesting concept. When purchasing a youngster on an Annual Cert, the Vendor in any case will have and should pass on its back history - inoculations, measuring, farrier etc. well this is useful to know our just measured out pony was always the smallest in the ring which is why we where so blaise about getting measured as thought no way in she will be out. £800 is alot of money to spend on a remeasure to then risked being objected to if the pony was then measured inKnown Fact - I'm trying to understand your slant here. But, am guessing that you were considering applying for a GOLD Certificate for your pony? If that was the case, the Gold Certificate is conducted in exactly the same way as any re-measure. i) Measuring Pad is selected by the JMB. ii) Referees (two 'Senior' Measuring Vets) are selected by the JMB iii) A Steward of the JMB is appointed, simply to ensure that the procedure is undertaken correctly by ALL parties, including the connections of the animal concerned. iv) Blood is taken and the sample analysed. The result is binding and, as described above, cannot be 'objected to' ever again by anyone other than an official JMB Steward, So as also said above, the likely hood of this happening are very, very slim. But, I repeat, a 'competitor' or a Society' cannot on its own, make further objection to that animal if re-measured under the process as described. I'm not quite sure what you are getting at? Perhaps you might like to explain further. You have already stated that your young pony grew - which they do as they become older and mature! Additionally, all the information is available on the JMB Website www.thejmbonline.co.uk
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Post by sjw87 on Jan 24, 2020 6:16:49 GMT
I don't think the 'general public' need to know where equines have been measured but actually, it's an interesting point now with it all online that it's more difficult for a new owner to know where they can go for subsequent height certs based on where previous ones have been done. I'm presuming a phone call or email to the JMB would give the information required though.
With reference to my earlier comment, I'd like to see some kind of map or ability to find your most local measuring pads function on the website. I live on the border of 4 counties and 3 of those have no measurers anymore so it can be difficult to then search down the list for the other counties to work out where else one can go for subsequent measuring.
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