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Post by wornthetshirt on Jul 14, 2009 13:36:39 GMT
Masters - now, that's sensible, logical thinking. You don't really expect people to be logical, do you??
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Post by Artistic on Jul 14, 2009 13:36:58 GMT
And wasn't it the Parry show team who let their pony go all the way to Essex with a friend without knowing where he was going? Couldn't the same friend (or another) now be paid a sensible hourly rate for a day to take the pony to be re-measured? - it would work out an awful lot cheaper than £600.
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Post by parryshowteam on Jul 14, 2009 13:37:27 GMT
I understand what u are saying masters and maybe yes, it is incredibly important , but we have already lost our rihs and puk entry and stable monies not to mention the hoys classes we had booked in at GYS on thursday. overall over £1400 in show entries, the 15th is the only day we are able to take the Broodmare and Foal out together for GYS and unfortunately this date is very important aswell, any other date and time would be acceptable, i tried to get someone to take him for him measuring but everyone we know at GYS and the person who was taking him box has gone off the road and unfortunately we are using ours.
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Post by hollycane on Jul 14, 2009 13:55:27 GMT
This is just my personal opinion but If I had something recalled for remeasurement, publicly named on a website for the world to see, I'd make every effort to attend an appointment set for remeasurement under the JMB rules that require co-operation from the owner. In this way the verdict would be quickly given for the world to see.
I would not want to have my reputation or integrity questioned any further.
Those that have conspired to have animals measured in, the truth will out whether you like it or not and shilly shallying around only serves to create assumed guilt. Let's have some nobility in defeat here instead of whining.
Get 'em remeasured and if they are truly good animals their height will not affect their future. Showing isn't everything.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 14, 2009 13:59:20 GMT
This is just my personal opinion but If I had something recalled for remeasurement, publicly named on a website for the world to see, I'd make every effort to attend an appointment set for remeasurement under the JMB rules that require co-operation from the owner. In this way the verdict would be quickly given for the world to see. I totally agree hollycane, but keeping individuals targetted on this thread out of it, surely there are times where people cannot guarantee to be available if they are only offered one timeslot for remeasuring? As I've already said, there are times when I wouldn't be able to attend and I would be furious at the prospect of paying £600 to remeasure after that. |
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Post by hollycane on Jul 14, 2009 14:29:13 GMT
Guestless, agree there are obviously a few reasons why someone would not be either able to attend in person (death, many broken limbs, out of the country) with their animal or send it with a trusted person. Horsefolk are pretty good at pulling together and helping each other when the true need arises aren't they?
Personally I couldn't bear to be labelled a cheat.
And £600 is almost two pairs of Louboutins, 30 bottles of Hendricks, 20 bottles of Veuve Clic....
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Post by flicker on Jul 14, 2009 14:37:09 GMT
worththetshirt- because my pony is to be remeasured on one of those dates and someone told me htere dates i also have to travel 2hrs
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Post by parryshowteam on Jul 14, 2009 14:37:36 GMT
the bottles option sound better, and could sure do with it a present xx lol xx am trying everybody and his dog to try to get him there for 2.30pm tomorrow xx borrowing cars off people and trailers off others..most people at Great Yorkshire
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Post by SarahWilkes on Jul 14, 2009 14:42:37 GMT
I have just pm'd you - i now see its 2.30pm! i have a trailer you can borrow if that helps?
xxxxxx
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Post by parryshowteam on Jul 14, 2009 15:06:03 GMT
thanks pollypoppet, xxx great to meet lovely people like you xx see u soon xx will call u later xx
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Post by sageandonion on Jul 14, 2009 15:50:00 GMT
The reason I thought that most were measuring in was because only three ponies/horses were named here as measuring out. As the JMB do not put the 'befores and afters' up there is no other way unless you research and keep a book on the thing. I had thought that as they were persons who seem to enjoy bit*hing and making others feel bad, any ponies who have dared to grow since their last certificate would be named and shamed immediately.
I did actually ask if anyone knew the numbers in/out for the Essex vet and no one replied.
Sarcastic remarks are common from individuals (and they are entitled to be sarcastic if they wish), however, I expect Officials to be somewhat above that on a public forum and I was disappointed with the remark suggesting people are dishonest. I personally prefer to believe people are honest until they prove otherwise.
I read the article in H&H and the 'well known showing individual' named in that is entitled to her opinion and her stance on the situation. It would not be mine and I do not know her.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 14, 2009 18:00:39 GMT
Personally I couldn't bear to be labelled a cheat. Me neither, but I still don't think one timeslot for remeasuring within 21 days is practical for many people. I agree horse people are good at rallying round, but most people I know work full time too and I wouldn't even dream of asking them to take time off their work to take a pony of mine to be measured. I'm thankful I only have one that requires measuring (unless I was ever fortunate enough to qualify for HOYS or Olympia) and mine are all well under height anyway. |
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Post by wornthetshirt on Jul 14, 2009 18:16:11 GMT
The reason I thought that most were measuring in was because only three ponies/horses were named here as measuring out. As the JMB do not put the 'befores and afters' up there is no other way unless you research and keep a book on the thing. I had thought that as they were persons who seem to enjoy bit*hing and making others feel bad, any ponies who have dared to grow since their last certificate would be named and shamed immediately. I did actually ask if anyone knew the numbers in/out for the Essex vet and no one replied. Sarcastic remarks are common from individuals (and they are entitled to be sarcastic if they wish), however, I expect Officials to be somewhat above that on a public forum and I was disappointed with the remark suggesting people are dishonest. I personally prefer to believe people are honest until they prove otherwise. I read the article in H&H and the 'well known showing individual' named in that is entitled to her opinion and her stance on the situation. It would not be mine and I do not know her. Last para first - yes, that seems to be this person's stance - but, it doesn't give much of an education to those who aspire to her exaulted successful heights. That aside, I feel very strongly that those who sought to falsify the actual height of their animals - for whatever reason - be brought to book by the relevant Showing (or Breed/ Competition) Society. The JMB Secretaries do not often see the actual animal, as they are fundementally Office-based. But presumably, on paper, they will see these occasional signs of fraudulent behaviour by owners/exhibitors. But if they dare to speak the truth, then folk seem to get hot under the collar. |
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Post by ernie on Jul 14, 2009 19:41:53 GMT
The certificates declared invalid under rule 27.(ii) are in that category for the following reasons; (a) no response whatsoever within 21 days (b) a response so near the 21 day limit that a re-m could not be organised before the end of the period (c) a response with so many dates in the 21 day period that the owner could not produce the animal for re-m that it could not be organised within the period. (d) a mixture of (b) and (c) (e) owner cancels re-m and a re-m cannot be re-organised before the end of the 21 day limit Rule 45.2 states that the full cooperation of the owner is required. Full cooperation is taken to mean just that - to be given a choice of day and usually time is a bonus. One can only guess why any owner would want to delay/hinder the process. I was disappointed to read your comments as we feel that we do not fall into any of the above categories. We received our request for remeasurement on Saturday 20th June. We returned the questionnaire along with the height certificate posted first class on Tuesday 23rd June without any date restrictions. We were contacted by the JMB on Thursday 25th June and the earliest date offered to us was Thursday 22nd July which we have accepted. |
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Post by sageandonion on Jul 15, 2009 8:09:41 GMT
Personally I wish you all the very best and hope the result is what you want and that your disruption and costs are kept to the minimum. I think it very poor that everyone is treated this way when it is the rare minority deliberately cheating and even that has to be proven.
With regard to the person reported in horse & hound. I admire her for standing up to her belief and is therefore a good role model for others and quite frankly I agree with her reasoning.
People are innocent until proven guilty and not one person, vet or owner, has had that verdict.
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Post by agent on Jul 15, 2009 9:16:05 GMT
Personally I wish you all the very best and hope the result is what you want and that your disruption and costs are kept to the minimum. I think it very poor that everyone is treated this way when it is the rare minority deliberately cheating and even that has to be proven. With regard to the person reported in horse & hound. I admire her for standing up to her belief and is therefore a good role model for others and quite frankly I agree with her reasoning. People are innocent until proven guilty and not one person, vet or owner, has had that verdict. What is her belief then? That she is above the rules under which she shows. If innocent, go and get the animal remeasured - especially if your living is with horses. Otherwise don't pretend |
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Post by Guestless on Jul 15, 2009 9:23:03 GMT
We received our request for remeasurement on Saturday 20th June. We returned the questionnaire along with the height certificate posted first class on Tuesday 23rd June without any date restrictions. We were contacted by the JMB on Thursday 25th June and the earliest date offered to us was Thursday 22nd July which we have accepted. Does that mean you have to pay the £600 for your remeasurement because the date for remeasuring isn't within 21 days - I hope not.  Having thought more about it, 21 days does seem quite tight to me. What if the owner of a horse is away on holiday when notification goes out - not much chance of them getting back and sending questionnaire etc in and then getting a date within 21 days.  |
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Post by sageandonion on Jul 15, 2009 9:25:32 GMT
As stated in horse and hound, her opinion is that a young horse is likely to grow in the year of his first annual (which is true) and so could measure out of class before the end of that first year.
Actually he could measure out within a month. So what can people do, have them measured every so often to make sure?
What I find admirable about this lady, is she states her opinion publicly using her own name and without bit*hing and accusing others of cheating because their horses happen to grow.
Why on earth are you so venomous to fellow competitors?
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Post by wornthetshirt on Jul 15, 2009 12:10:48 GMT
As stated in horse and hound, her opinion is that a young horse is likely to grow in the year of his first annual (which is true) and so could measure out of class before the end of that first year. Actually he could measure out within a month. So what can people do, have them measured every so often to make sure? What I find admirable about this lady, is she states her opinion publicly using her own name and without bit*hing and accusing others of cheating because their horses happen to grow. Why on earth are you so venomous to fellow competitors I don't think that anyone is being venomous. It is certainly not my intention, anyway. I just like to see a proper level playing field for all competitors. One cannot simply keep inventing another class for animals which grow out of their real one. you have to stop somewhere. In any event, if an animal is already so close to the height limit when he is still young, would that not indicate that he is likely to grow overheight quite soon? (modified as I made a boob with the quote box. sorry) |
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Post by sageandonion on Jul 15, 2009 12:46:33 GMT
Well of course if a young horse is measuring on or a couple of millimetres short of the maximum height limit for a class in January then it is very likely to be overheight for that particular class by the end of the 12 months. Horses like children as we all know have a habit of growing overnight. How many people have took a stable rug off found a wither and wondered where on earth that came from!
So the competitor I suppose does have the choice to move up into the next height section, just in case her horse should grow during the year (and seriously do you expect a competitor to do that?) or enter his/her correct height section. That would mean, probably, by HOYS, the horse is overheight along with all the others who have grown.
It is no one's fault, no one is deliberately cheating and it is just the way things are. There have on a number of occasions in this thread been comments and suggestions that those with overheight ponies/horses are cheating and commiting fraud.
And, incidentally, I do not get hot under the collar, particularly about ponies growing.
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Post by jackiet on Jul 15, 2009 13:16:15 GMT
OK so what if say you buy a 3 year old show pony in December, take it to be measured in January and it measures 137.5cms. You start to show it in under 138cms SP classes. In May you put the stick on it and it measures 139cms. What do you do ? Do you continue to show it for the rest of the year in under 138cms classes and be classed by some as a "cheat" or do you pay £600 for it to be remeasured part way through the year so that you can show it in the under 148cms SP class ?
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Post by flicker on Jul 15, 2009 14:09:32 GMT
how many people will pay 600 to remeasure. you should be able to call jmb and say i think my pony has grown what do i do. nobody is going to cough up to report themselves!
or if your like me i dont check the height (although i did the other week through sheer panic) and how many others dont its hard to tell if something has grown a touch when your with it every day.
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Post by showpony on Jul 15, 2009 16:53:10 GMT
Just taken my pony to great harwood to be measured and just want to say how fantastic and helpfull the vets were jmb have had a bit of stick for not trying to help owners at re- measurments and just want to say i did not find that the case at all they were very patient with my pony who did not want to stand still for anymore than two mins at a time we were not hurried or rushed at all they gave me plenty of time to completely relax him, so a huge thank you to everyone at great harwood x
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Post by armada on Jul 15, 2009 17:18:23 GMT
It is no one's fault, no one is deliberately cheating and it is just the way things are. There have on a number of occasions in this thread been comments and suggestions that those with overheight ponies/horses are cheating and commiting fraud............... I think to your distaste, you may find some are, and those that arrange for ponies to be 'measured under', for quite a hefty fee are making a reasonable amount of money out of it. Not idle chit-chat or scurrilous gossip but total fact and in one case, from the perpetrators own mouth straight into my ears as we were talking, and as the animal in question was recalled but failed to show for re-measurement, the cap well and truly fits. If these animals were just measuring out by a couple of millimetres it would be so bad, but over an inch in some cases, after a January measurement? Come on.
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Post by parryshowteam on Jul 15, 2009 17:25:30 GMT
Just taken my pony to great harwood to be measured and just want to say how fantastic and helpfull the vets were jmb have had a bit of stick for not trying to help owners at re- measurments and just want to say i did not find that the case at all they were very patient with my pony who did not want to stand still for anymore than two mins at a time we were not hurried or rushed at all they gave me plenty of time to completely relax him, so a huge thank you to everyone at great harwood x I agree with you Linzy there were fantastic as we have a young pony just 4 and he is nurotic about new situations, even though i couldnt be there in person, a good friend a borrowed trailer and another friends borrowed car managed to get him there on time, and he commented on the way the JMB and the superb vets at Great Harwood hadled everything and went out of there way to make the situation calming for him and not made to rush.. Thank you for taking the stress out of a stressfull situation xx |
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Post by horseymum on Jul 15, 2009 18:07:00 GMT
thats good news linzy and parry show team, makes life easier and less stressful for the ponies if there nice people who do them as they sound like they werent rushing the ponies, hope you got them in a what you want,
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Post by wornthetshirt on Jul 15, 2009 23:20:31 GMT
Firstly to Armarda, I agree totally with your comments; sadly it seems that some people are being just a little bit naive if they think that everyone is wonderful and no-one ever initiates cheating.
And secondly, to Linzi and to Parry showteam, I expect the various JMB representatives will be pleased to hear of your comments which you have made so publicly, from the recent re-measurement of your ponies.
In my experience the personel used for re-measurements are nothing but considerate, kindly and very experienced people.
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Post by wednesday on Jul 17, 2009 10:44:47 GMT
Firstly to Armarda, I agree totally with your comments; sadly it seems that some people are being just a little bit naive if they think that everyone is wonderful and no-one ever initiates cheating. And secondly, to Linzi and to Parry showteam, I expect the various JMB representatives will be pleased to hear of your comments which you have made so publicly, from the recent re-measurement of your ponies. In my experience the personel used for re-measurements are nothing but considerate, kindly and very experienced people. Wornthetshirt, just wondering ? Do you work for the JMB? as you seem to know alot about the measurment side of things and of all the situations it seems. |
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Post by wornthetshirt on Jul 17, 2009 11:47:53 GMT
Obviously, like a lot of us, over the years I have had numerous animals measured and occasionally re-measured.
I'm old enough to remember when the vet would come to our home to measure, so it would be done in the Tack room or similar as the most level place! a far cry from now, when proper pads are put in by vets, often, they say, at considerable expense.
My mum used to speak of certain amimals which (so thay said!) the owner/producers would "dig 4 little holes" in the concrete and train the oversized horse or pony to stand in them! (And, presumably have it standing in them ready when the vet arrives!)
Hey ho, those were the days!!
No, those two postings were pleasant and positive and it was nice to read, when so much backbiting goes on about everything.
Thats all.
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Post by penny h on Jul 17, 2009 11:49:30 GMT
OK so what if say you buy a 3 year old show pony in December, take it to be measured in January and it measures 137.5cms. You start to show it in under 138cms SP classes. In May you put the stick on it and it measures 139cms. What do you do ? Do you continue to show it for the rest of the year in under 138cms classes and be classed by some as a "cheat" or do you pay £600 for it to be remeasured part way through the year so that you can show it in the under 148cms SP class ? We have had in the past two Novice 138cm show ponies and a Novice 158cm Intermediate Show Hunter who measured in January but then over a period of time grew bigger. We then showed the ponies in mixed height novices but didn't take them to the champs - sold one to go to local shows to get a nervous child going and the other as a broodmare. The hunter type went to a fabulous home to go jumping.We told all three purchasers that in spite of having a certificate, in our opinion they would not measure in again at the original height. Regarding the other post implying that worntheshirt is involved with the JMB is quite petty as they have posted several times on lts of subjects and have always been sensible and balanced. By the way I don't know who they are - well I might if I knew their real name!  |
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