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Post by lancs on Aug 11, 2009 20:16:24 GMT
They measure ponies at sj and horse trial comps whats the difference ?
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Post by jmbsec on Aug 12, 2009 8:45:30 GMT
The BSJA measure at some of their top shows to check that any selected for international (ie under FEI rules) shows do not get sent home without jumping. We get to re-measure the failures, ie over 151cm with shoes on.
Any show or society can organise similar screening at shows. The JMB has no jurisdiction in this matter but would re-measure any animals referred by member socieites or show executives.
But why bother with this logistic nightmare - just object against the big ones.
As I have stated before, if we received objections against , eg, all the big animals that compete over the next two weeks, the game would be cleaned up in a month. What are you all scared of?
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Post by wisdom on Aug 12, 2009 9:19:00 GMT
I don't think people are 'scared' of objecting JMB Sec, but a lot of over height ponies are still competing with annual certificates and unfortunately we as competitors cannot object against these ponies - apologies if I am wrong, please advise JMB Sec.
Although we have JMB Stewards maybe someone from the JMB office would be available to come to a member societies championship show and view some classes? This would enable them to see first hand the differences in pony/horse sizes within a class.
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Post by ernie on Aug 12, 2009 9:23:14 GMT
Why should it be up to the competitors to object or judges to put over height ponies down the line? If the JMB have selected certain vets to be official measurers who are we to question their integrity? In addition relying on competitors to object only encourages ill feeling which is not what showing should be about. Maybe random measuring at shows could be the way foward and operated in a similar way to dope testing where ponies are taken to a quiet stabled area, shoes removed by onsite farrier and measuring carried out.
Also should the JMB investigate any vet who has issued a Full Height Certificate on an animal that when called remeasurement has measured significantly over their original height?
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Post by girly on Aug 12, 2009 10:55:17 GMT
JMBsec yes we could all object if we were made of money. I don't have the money to make an objection to the overheight ponies we compete against. Yes I do have a very good idea that some are overheight becouse they tower above my pony and I know how big she is. We pay you to measure our ponies and hope that it is properly policed. As some of the remeasurements show this has not been the case. I am only trying to suggest an idea that is seen to be fair and open.
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Post by hs on Aug 12, 2009 11:01:26 GMT
This is not necessarily the case - M&M are often ridden by adults - an oversize connie at 15h in a shp/whp class would be subject to rider age restrictions so it would not be a clear swap as the current rider may then not be able to compete. Stamp out cheating!!! Hey overheight c's can always be a d!!!!! Overheight connies can do shp or whp!!! Cobs can do maxi cobs !!! Why all this measuring down stuff!! Put your horses and ponies in the right height class!!!! My friend has a small hunter pony and is dwarfed in the 15hh as it is only 14 2 but has done very well and was 5th at the rihs!! |
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Post by wornthetshirt on Aug 12, 2009 12:20:38 GMT
JMBsec yes we could all object if we were made of money. I don't have the money to make an objection to the overheight ponies we compete against. Yes I do have a very good idea that some are overheight becouse they tower above my pony and I know how big she is. We pay you to measure our ponies and hope that it is properly policed. As some of the remeasurements show this has not been the case. I am only trying to suggest an idea that is seen to be fair and open. If you feel very strongly about a situation, surely you could inform the relevant society/s and let their officers deal with it as they see fit. All the societies have some sort of objection and disciplinary proceedures. That would take care of any serious rule infringement, not just height or doping issues. |
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Post by Cefn farm Horses on Aug 12, 2009 12:45:46 GMT
i do think that that the continual discussions regarding heights are dragging on. The JMB appoint the vets they should be regulating their own vets without the effect on the owners. The fall of a stick can increase or decrease a horses value. The JMB issue a cert for the purpose of competition, by removing the cert they are removing the right of competition. A height cert is based on a vets opinion as well. To irradicate this then perhaps we should adopt regional measuring days like ireland - you have 3 goes on the day or whatever suits. Yes individual societies have their own procedures - but they do place faith in the JMB that is why the JMB was formed.
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Post by jmbsec on Aug 12, 2009 18:36:02 GMT
1. Big animals on annual certs - tell the member society or us - if enough reports about individuals the stewrds will act.
2. Objection fee - you get it all back if you are right, put your money where your mouth is.
3. Iinvestigate vets - what does that mean?
4. Regional centres - great idea. No idea how we could measure 1500 animals in 2 mths, Jan-Feb, each year.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Aug 12, 2009 19:48:46 GMT
I have kept out of this measurement debate - however, I do feel quite strongly that I could not afford to object to something I felt was overheight in a class!!
As far as measuring goes, vets are supposed to be independent - surely it is not too hard for JMB to police (please correct me if I am wrong) but if a vet has a number of animals objected to they should have to be re-assessed before they are granted a licence for measuring?
I also think that it is incredibly easy to stand and think something is big in its class, but if you stood with it, it stands high behind, but is flat through its wither!!
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Post by sugarcube19 on Aug 12, 2009 21:38:38 GMT
1. Big animals on annual certs - tell the member society or us - if enough reports about individuals the stewrds will act. 2. Objection fee - you get it all back if you are right, put your money where your mouth is. Can i just check what is the diff between a big animal on an annual to one on a full? How much does it cost to object? |
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Post by blueday on Aug 12, 2009 22:41:28 GMT
dont quote me on this but its £600 to object i believe,
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Post by jmbsec on Aug 13, 2009 8:01:36 GMT
"surely it is not too hard for JMB to police (please correct me if I am wrong) but if a vet has a number of animals objected to they should have to be re-assessed before they are granted a licence for measuring? "
- if the Stewards consider a measurer's performance is below the standard expected they can either tell him/her to take more care or delete them from the panel. Both happens.
"Can i just check what is the diff between a big animal on an annual to one on a full?"
- none, except young animals will/may/should grow. I have no idea why objections against annual certs are not allowed but it has been a rule for many years. Perhaps it is because it was assumed young animals will grow and those with a 148.0cm cert in January may be 148.5cm by August - is that OK with you exhibitors, or you only really upset by the 152.0cm by August?
"How much does it cost to object?" - £600, all returned if objection upheld.
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Post by Cefn farm Horses on Aug 13, 2009 11:32:11 GMT
my feelings are that animals on an annual who get remeasured could potentially measure back in the following year for a number of reasons - therefore measuring animals on an annual seems a pointless task - recall them but then the remeasurement should happen after Jan 1st the following year.
From a quick glance there are about 15 animals that have been remeasured or due to be remeasured that could (not all granted) that may measure smaller - how does this stack up??? seems like a complete waste of money and time to me remeasuring annual certs as the cert is only granted on a temp basis until a full cert is issued. Correct me if I am wrong. But in this H&H Katie Jerram highlights this. If the remeasurement cost is £600 then around £9K has been wasted - excellent use of funds I must admit.
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Post by jmbsec on Aug 13, 2009 23:21:44 GMT
Consider this scenario:
You have an 8yo 143.0cm pony that you have had re-measured by referees to confirm the height. You have done well at small shows and “experts” have said you should compete in RIHS/HOYS qualifiers in classes for ponies not exceeding 143.0cm.
You do so and regularly compete against a 6yo pony (therefore with an annual meas cert) that towers over yours (and others in the class) only for it to win and you to be placed second or third on numerous occasions.
The 6yo goes on to win RIHS/HOYS/etc.
It comes out the following year in a class for ponies not exceeding 148.0cm and with a full meas cert stating it is 148.0cm high, ie it must have been well over 143.0cm when it competed against your pony.
Questions for ad hoc survey:
1. Would you be happy with this situation? – all those who think we should not re-m young animals must answer yes and explain their answer.
2. If the rules were changed would you object against the annual cert? If cost is an issue, what level of objecting fee would not prevent you from objecting (all fees to be returned if objection upheld)?
3. If you could and did object would you be content for the pony to continue to compete for the rest of the year (winning everything) and for the re-m to occur in January the following year? – I think that is what Landbanker and others are suggesting.
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Post by sageandonion on Aug 14, 2009 14:02:22 GMT
I would be happy to compete against a pony with an annual height certificate in class in the knowledge that the JMB employ honest vets and as employers (albeit in a sort of sub contractual way) of those vets, take appropriate steps to ensure fair play. If the JMB inadvertently employs dishonest people, then it is their responsibility to put things right.
I do not think it is the responsibility of competitors or judges to do that job.
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Post by colourful on Aug 14, 2009 14:28:31 GMT
Why is the there a huge disparity in the cost of an animal being measured for an Annual compared to a re-measure via the objection system please? thanks.  I do believe the JMB are doing their level ( no pun intended ) best to try and be fair to everyone but the cost difference is a bit disturbing. |
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Post by jmbsec on Aug 15, 2009 8:48:01 GMT
"I would be happy to compete against a pony with an annual height certificate in class in the knowledge that the JMB employ honest vets and as employers (albeit in a sort of sub contractual way) of those vets, take appropriate steps to ensure fair play. If the JMB inadvertently employs dishonest people, then it is their responsibility to put things right.
I do not think it is the responsibility of competitors or judges to do that job. "
What appropriate steps do you suggest? What should the JMB do to put things right?
The JMB can act on complaints but need to know who or what may be a problem.
"Why is the there a huge disparity in the cost of an animal being measured ...compareded to a re-measure via the objection system"
Because we pay the fees of two referees (at least one travelling to another vet's pad) - check out your vet's hourly rate, a steward's expenses and the laboratory fees for samples taken (over £200).
If you are going to get it all back if your objection is upheld what does it matter. It could be £1000 - get a bank loan, within 3 weeks you will get it back if you are right and it will cost you a bit of interest.
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Post by sageandonion on Aug 15, 2009 9:09:00 GMT
Presumably there are already very strict guidelines for vets laid down by the JMB. My suggestions might be along the lines ............
I agree measuring at shows is a good idea and if a horse goes over a certain amount it should be recalled.
Competitors should not have to put down an objection fee but should feel free of burden to state their concerns. This should be in writing an a proper JMB 'objection form' completed. If the JMB receives, more than two or three such forms they should call to remeasure. Documented forms will highlight those competitors who might be tempted to just object at every show willy nilly.
The ordinary measuring fee will undoubted have to go up and competitors will just have to take this on the chin to ensure funds are available to allow the JMB to police properly.
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Post by colourful on Aug 15, 2009 9:10:06 GMT
Thank you for your reply - even it is a bit "nippy" I wasnt having a go, I was purely and simply asking why the difference was so huge. THis has now been explained, thank you. However found the bank loan comment a bit unnecessary - and dare I say childish. Still dont let them grind you down. ;D Ultimately I dont believe there will ever be a system whereby everything works perfectly and to everyones satisfaction - there will always be people who want to "buck the system" and you can never prepare for every eventuality - I think it would be more realistic for people to be happy for changes to be made and realise that no system is perfect and change will be perpetual. |
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Post by sageandonion on Aug 15, 2009 9:14:35 GMT
Colourful, I disagree, I think with thought, controls and the funds to do it, the JMB will be able to operate a perfectly tight and fair system.
Obviously the system is not working at the moment and changes need to be made.
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Post by jmbsec on Aug 15, 2009 9:56:58 GMT
"measuring at shows is a good idea and if a horse goes over a certain amount it should be recalled."
This would have to be done by the societies and the shows, as the BSJA do, and refer big ones to us. No problem - members of societies can lobby their councils to do it.
"Competitors should not have to put down an objection fee but should feel free of burden to state their concerns. This should be in writing an a proper JMB 'objection form' completed. "
Which happens now (without the form) - the JMB reviews these
letters and will take action. Number of letters per year - about 6!
"bank loan comment a bit unnecessary"
Unnecessary but all part of horsegossip! If people are really serious about "cleaning" this situation a concerted effort by all the wringers and moaners in the form of objections would clean it up in one weekend, or maybe two to include those cheats whose boxes break down on the way to a show.
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hacks
Junior Member
Posts: 51 
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Post by hacks on Aug 15, 2009 10:07:43 GMT
Has anyone signed the petition heading to the BSPS on the subject of measuring?
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hacks
Junior Member
Posts: 51
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Post by hacks on Aug 15, 2009 10:13:40 GMT
Does anyone know if there will be many riding horses and hacks recalled?
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Post by sageandonion on Aug 15, 2009 12:14:31 GMT
JMB has said they get about six letters a year complaining. I am very surprised by this as it surely must be the most discussed/viewed subject on this forum. Does this mean that everyone just loves to have a bit*h and a moan about winning horses? Surely those who complain on here should be writing to JMB?
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Post by honeypot on Aug 15, 2009 16:40:10 GMT
In the 'science' of complaining it very few people actually complain,(when they buy a service or product) less than 10%, and most complainers are men. But a person who has had poor service will tell 10-15 people. I can find the research if anyone is interested. Based on this it is not surprising the JMB gets so few complaints
There are also disinsentives to complain to the JMB.
One you have to pay and second its officail and may cause 'trouble'
To encourage people to voice concerns therefore it would be better to have a 'no fault' system like they do for piliots,docters etc
Forms could be completed at shows and monitered by the JMB for trends. If as one person has already said certain animals or sections are causing concerns that area could be targeted.
'Look on complaints as a gift', this forum is enabling to hear your customers and if needs be make corrections. I am sure the majority of the people posting are raising genuine concerns and are not 'wringers and moaners' and they have taken the oppotunity to give their on the ground experience between them they must attend 100's of shows a year.
I would liken it to animal cruelty, the RSPCA recieves 1000's of complaints but only a few are convicted but should that stop people from voicing their concerns
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Post by conniegirl on Aug 18, 2009 10:16:36 GMT
JMBsec, I have to ask what world you are living in when you say put your money where your mouth is? and where you think we are going to get those bank loans from
I will happily put a £50 complaint in at a show, however £600 i could not afford, full stop. I'm a full time student, I've got debts of approximately £40k to repay, i've already got loans coming out of my ears from banks to fund my studies, I can't get anymore loans. I work d**n hard to be able to afford to show my ponies and £600 to object just isnt feasible, it would mean I couldnt show mine as i couldnt afford to.
£600 is an awful lot of money to most and I'm sure that is why peopleare not objecting to overheight ponies.
21 days is also a rediculasly short amount of time to get a horse remeasured. As it is to get my pony measured I would have to get my mum to take him, she works full time and has to ask for holiday at least a month in advance. I can't afford to pay for someone else to take him and all my horsey friends also work full time or don't have the ability to drive a lorry.
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Post by agent on Aug 18, 2009 10:46:21 GMT
Has anyone signed the petition heading to the BSPS on the subject of measuring? Can you tell me where is this petition to be found and what does it ask for? |
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Post by mf on Aug 18, 2009 11:18:17 GMT
4. Regional centres - great idea. No idea how we could measure 1500 animals in 2 mths, Jan-Feb, each year. 10 - 15 regional centres (at already established vet surgeries obviously) and several diff measuring days in jan and feb. two vets or one vet and an official over seeing each measuring. That way if you had 10 centres and 5 diff days each then that is 150 animals per centre and 30 each day to measure. Make that 15 centres and it is 100 animals per centre and 20 per day to measure. If both vets are from diff surgeries and it is not made public which vets will be where when and both have to agree then surely you can make a fairer system? The current system has many ways around it and the £600 objection fee makes it fairly safe to compete an overheight animal. It is exceptionally easy to get a 4, 5 or 6 year old measured at the height you wish as obviously if anyone objects then all you say is 'well they're expected to grow'. I agree they do grow and I expect my 4 year olds to grow but if they have been measured under a fair system in jan then they should be allowed to compete for the rest of the season without objection. The problem is the current system is not fair. |
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Post by wornthetshirt on Aug 18, 2009 14:12:04 GMT
Has anyone signed the petition heading to the BSPS on the subject of measuring? Can you tell me where is this petition to be found and what does it ask for? I have to agree - I have only been a Life Member of the BSPS since the 1960's and yet I have heard nothing about this petition. Perhaps it's creator is selective in who it is submitted to..........? |
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