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Post by fmcvet on Oct 4, 2009 12:35:27 GMT
In response to the above 2 posts: That is the truth and my lifestyle, with work, family, and judging commitments has made it impossible to attend any one of the conferences in the last 5 years. I don’t exaggerate or lie – not even white ones.
My life is quieter now than it used to be, and I don’t have anything like the same winter horse commitment that I used to have but, this year, as an example, 1. I am working 3 out of the 8 weekends in Oct and Nov 2. I am abroad on holiday 2 of the 8 weekends 3. I had a good friends’ wedding this weekend 4. my boss for the last 26 years’ weekend leaving-do is coming up 5. I still intend to go to the HPS Conference on 31.10.09, because it is feasible to get to. 6. Am trying to decide between going to the Scottish BSPS Judges Conference and the BCPS Filly Inspectors meeting which both take place on 8.11.09, when I would have liked to have my youngest son’s birthday party. 7. I am also worn out at weekends, after a week of stressful work, and actually need the one weekend in 2 months that I am free ie. 14/15.11.09, when my son has a long weekend from school. to recharge my batteries and catch up with housework etc or even ride my horse.
Attending a conference would do me the world of good - I am always learning, and would love to have the time and be available to attend breed shows, to increase my knowledge of individual breeds. I don’t expect to be a special case, but the circumstances are as they are, and I couldn’t help arriving in this position.
I genuinely thought the HPS Conference was open to NPS judges in the north who were going to struggle/be unable to attend next week’s one in the South of England, which would certainly have solved my problems.
As I said in my earlier posts, at least I’ve had the chance to do a lot of Olympia qualifiers, and I’ve done the final. Am I a worse judge now than I was then? The RIHS MM WHP qualifiers are challenging and fun, but you usually only do one a year anyway and not every year.
I also wonder who the NPS are penalising because I will still hopefully get plenty judging invitations, and they are reducing their pool of fairly experienced judges, making life harder for show secretaries and more repetitive for competitors.
I do think it is hurtful, after the length of time I have been judging, and the commitment I have made over the years, but it’s not the end of the world. The rules are the rules, but it would have been nice if the NPS had been more understanding, considerate and constructive, or, dare one say it, accommodating! Some of the earlier posts gave really good ideas of possible ways of overcoming the situation.
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Post by peacefultwo on Oct 4, 2009 12:52:19 GMT
In response to the above 2 posts: That is the truth and my lifestyle, with work, family, and judging commitments has made it impossible to attend any one of the conferences in the last 5 years. I don’t exaggerate or lie – not even white ones. My life is quieter now than it used to be, and I don’t have anything like the same winter horse commitment that I used to have but, this year, as an example, 1. I am working 3 out of the 8 weekends in Oct and Nov 2. I am abroad on holiday 2 of the 8 weekends 3. I had a good friends’ wedding this weekend 4. my boss for the last 26 years’ weekend leaving-do is coming up 5. I still intend to go to the HPS Conference on 31.10.09, because it is feasible to get to. 6. Am trying to decide between going to the Scottish BSPS Judges Conference and the BCPS Filly Inspectors meeting which both take place on 8.11.09, when I would have liked to have my youngest son’s birthday party. 7. I am also worn out at weekends, after a week of stressful work, and actually need the one weekend in 2 months that I am free ie. 14/15.11.09, when my son has a long weekend from school. to recharge my batteries and catch up with housework etc or even ride my horse. Attending a conference would do me the world of good - I am always learning, and would love to have the time and be available to attend breed shows, to increase my knowledge of individual breeds. I don’t expect to be a special case, but the circumstances are as they are, and I couldn’t help arriving in this position. I genuinely thought the HPS Conference was open to NPS judges in the north who were going to struggle/be unable to attend next week’s one in the South of England, which would certainly have solved my problems. As I said in my earlier posts, at least I’ve had the chance to do a lot of Olympia qualifiers, and I’ve done the final. Am I a worse judge now than I was then? The RIHS MM WHP qualifiers are challenging and fun, but you usually only do one a year anyway and not every year. I also wonder who the NPS are penalising because I will still hopefully get plenty judging invitations, and they are reducing their pool of fairly experienced judges, making life harder for show secretaries and more repetitive for competitors. I do think it is hurtful, after the length of time I have been judging, and the commitment I have made over the years, but it’s not the end of the world. The rules are the rules, but it would have been nice if the NPS had been more understanding, considerate and constructive, or, dare one say it, accommodating! Some of the earlier posts gave really good ideas of possible ways of overcoming the situation. Sorry but don't you think that five years is accommodating? I'm sorry but your post indicates that because you are a popular judge you should be allowed to do your own thing as regards the rules. IMO you are coming over very self centered. I do think for once the NPS has bent over back wards to accommodate you.
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Post by fmcvet on Oct 4, 2009 12:56:04 GMT
My job on a daily basis involves interpretation and enforcement of legislation. Rather than being totally black and white, I try to come up with solutions for what can be done within the law.
As they said at school, 'the rules are there to be broken', but where do you draw the line between law, rules, codes of conduct and best practice.
A rule like 'no spurs' is easy to enforce, and produces the right result, but still has its own dilemma eg. in a WHP class, does one tell the offending person they can't jump at all because they came into the ring with spurs on, or let them jump their round (possibly unwittingly)and eliminate them afterwards, or give them the chance to take their spurs off before they start. There are many ways of interpreting/enforcing even a simple rule, and there's always more than one road to Rome. Certainly work-wise, I have found that the more considerate and less autocratic and inflexible you are, whilst still working within the legal framework, the better compromise and outcome you achieve for everyone.
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Post by fmcvet on Oct 4, 2009 13:14:20 GMT
5 years is not necessarily accomodating if the weekends fall the wrong way and you have a busy inflexible lifestyle. I always end up working more weekends in the winter, so that I can fulfil judging commitments in the summer. Self-centred is not my thing, though it's something I think I ought to learn! I don't look on myself as a popular judge, but it is really nice to think I'm OK after reading the lovely posts on here. I said in my earlier post that I was arguably being penalised lightly - The NPS are quite within their rights to interpret their own rules as they please, but it doesn't stop it being hurtful, and makes one wonder why one has often put a commitment to judge ahead of one's own family for 30 years.
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Post by fmcvet on Oct 4, 2009 17:42:25 GMT
In response to the above 2 posts: Sorry but don't you think that five years is accommodating? I'm sorry but your post indicates that because you are a popular judge you should be allowed to do your own thing as regards the rules. IMO you are coming over very self centered. I do think for once the NPS has bent over back wards to accommodate you. I think a fixed annual date often at relatively short notice has not been possible in this instance for the last 5 years. I think 30 years is a long time. I have bent over backwards to make that commitment which is something my family and friends have often found hard to understand or even intolerable. "the NPS has bent over back wards to accommodate you". I hadn't realised trhat that was the case, but I thank them if that is so
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Post by robertparkerjones on Oct 4, 2009 17:51:27 GMT
Always going to be two sides to this argument!! Both valid and reasonable. Sure the NPS will elevate you back to the A panel if you can attend the judges conference next year. I had a similar thing happen last year as I was due to attend NPS, BSPS and WP&CS conferences in the spring. Nightmare scenario to fit them all in....... just managed!!! Time passes so quickly you loose track of when you last went!!
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not so peaceful one
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Post by not so peaceful one on Oct 4, 2009 17:57:27 GMT
In response to the above 2 posts: Sorry but don't you think that five years is accommodating? I'm sorry but your post indicates that because you are a popular judge you should be allowed to do your own thing as regards the rules. IMO you are coming over very self centered. I do think for once the NPS has bent over back wards to accommodate you. I think a fixed annual date often at relatively short notice has not been possible in this instance for the last 5 years. I think 30 years is a long time. I have bent over backwards to make that commitment which is something my family and friends have often found hard to understand or even intolerable. "the NPS has bent over back wards to accommodate you". I hadn't realised trhat that was the case, but I thank them if that is so wouldnt expect anything else less said from this nasty piece of work. Words fail me. Witches coven eh PF2!!!!!!!
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Post by peacefultwo on Oct 4, 2009 18:06:21 GMT
I think a fixed annual date often at relatively short notice has not been possible in this instance for the last 5 years. I think 30 years is a long time. I have bent over backwards to make that commitment which is something my family and friends have often found hard to understand or even intolerable. "the NPS has bent over back wards to accommodate you". I hadn't realised trhat that was the case, but I thank them if that is so wouldnt expect anything else less said from this nasty piece of work. Words fail me. Witches coven eh PF2!!!!!!! Not sure what you mean? but at least I never hide as a guest ;D Pray tell me what I have said that is in anyway nasty?
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Post by Warrington on Oct 4, 2009 19:31:41 GMT
Perhaps you should write to Council and put your case and also send a question to the AGM for the membership to vote on next spring. Picking up on another post do the same rules apply to the overseas judges?
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rover
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Post by rover on Oct 4, 2009 23:50:14 GMT
FMCVET yet again i feel for your tourmoil! but 5 years no training and in such a emient position as judging for Olympia I do think they mayhave a case and for you to post as a guest is poor to say the least. In my job we have to do 30 days in every 3 years paid at my own expence or we are struck off also, job, kids, weddings what ever! You do this as an extra cariculeme hobbie so I guess, whilst distressing as it is, as said previously rules are rules!
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Post by Warrington on Oct 5, 2009 7:26:03 GMT
With so many judges being on a multitude of panels these days perhaps ALL societies through the Show Horse Council should thrash it out and look at a sensible idea such as requiring judges to attend 2 judges conferences every five years which can be from any of the organisations they judge for.
This would make surely make life far easier for those with work &/or family committments.
What do you think?
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Post by fmcvet on Oct 5, 2009 7:57:25 GMT
You are right, rover!! I obviously need to stop stating my case, pipe down and do my utmost to get to a conference next year, if I can. I certainly don't think I should be exempt from going to a conference, and I know that reading the rule book, an obsessive interest in native ponies, a training in soundness and a bit of experience coupled with a lifetime's interest and observation are not a substitute. It looks like a very good conference that the NPS have laid on for the judges this year, and I am truly sorry to miss it yet again. As I said at the beginning, I would have liked to post as a member, but I can't log on with my old name and password. It's no secret who I am. Warrington, that is a really good idea, and would certainly increase my chances of getting there, I suppose the problem with the different societies is that they might not feel it was specific enough for their own rules and standards.
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Post by blimey on Oct 5, 2009 11:40:42 GMT
Sorry but don't you think that five years is accommodating? I'm sorry but your post indicates that because you are a popular judge you should be allowed to do your own thing as regards the rules. IMO you are coming over very self centered. I do think for once the NPS has bent over back wards to accommodate you. Good god you are rude!!!! You must be reading a different thread, nowhere can I see that fmcvet has said she should remain on the panel because she is a popular judge. I also cannot see where the NPS have 'bent over backwards'. They have not offered fmcvet any althernatives or tried to work with her to resolve the issues. I think you have missed the whole point of the thread
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rover
Junior Member
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Post by rover on Oct 5, 2009 21:20:16 GMT
Fmcvet Ive just re read my previous post and apologise that I did not word it in a better way !Im sorry if I added to your upset in any manner
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Post by victoria (highhill) on Oct 5, 2009 21:32:30 GMT
"It's no secret who I am."
Would it be rude to ask who you are then - I havent got a clue and I think some others might not know either! You have said it isnt a secret and you would have posted under your 'real name ' if you could!
Also I agree peacefultwo's comment was rude!
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Post by Ken Clarke on Oct 5, 2009 21:50:05 GMT
Have to agree that the post was rude but isn't that what we've come to expect from some of the NPS hierachy. Not all but some. No wonder the Chief Exec left. Who in their right mind with want to put up with attitudes like that. The few fancy themselves as dictators and she was a democrat. Jump into the real world folks. Be flexible friends and more accommodating
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Post by victoria (highhill) on Oct 5, 2009 21:53:58 GMT
ken Clarke - does that mean that you are saying peacefultwo is someon from the NPS? Surely if he/she was involved with the NPS they shouldnt have made such comments anyway?
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rover
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Post by rover on Oct 5, 2009 21:58:56 GMT
I sort of agree Ken but 5 years of "accomodation" come on that a bit of a push! If as you say Peaceful two is from theNPS I would be shocked but how do you know this?
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Post by fmcvet on Oct 5, 2009 22:04:40 GMT
My guest name is my initials and occupation??!! It's kind of academic who I am, because it doesn't really affect my post, thoughts, position or opinions, and I'd run a mile to avoid being the centre of attention. A lot of people sussed it straight away, which I don't mind, but they're probably mostly friends, acquaintances, people whose ponies I've judged or that I've judged with or met. I don't mind anyone knowing who I am, and am certainly not hiding my identity, but just don't have the self-awareness/confidence to post under my actual /real real name (mixed up or what!! ).
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Post by Guestless on Oct 5, 2009 22:09:25 GMT
fmcvet - I don't think it's reached that stage yet, but can I just say that if you at any point wish this thread to be deleted (if the natives get more bolshy) then that can be done.
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Post by fmcvet on Oct 5, 2009 22:12:55 GMT
Thanks, Guestless, much appreciated
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Post by billyfitz on Oct 6, 2009 9:09:48 GMT
I have read this post and at no time would I ever have thought the original poster was self centred, if any thing completely the opposite, here we have a lady who has given a great deal of time to put something back into a sport she clearly loves, she seeems to be well respected and knowledgeable. I understand that rules have been breached, but in the great scheme of things five years quickly passes, I would take, at a guess that many of us have friends and relatives we have promised to visit etc in this time frame but have not managed to fit it in, I know I have. The pace of life moves very quickly even more so when you have lots of commitments, (family, job, etc) It only seems like a blink of an eye and we were approching last christmas and here we are again its really quite scarey where time goe's. As I see it, this lady has previously missed four meetings, would it not have been better for the NPS to contact her last year, reminding her of the fact that she had to attend this year or they would penalise her, that way maybe alternative arrangements could have been made to suit all parties.
Rules sometimes can be bent but not actually broken, after all we do live in a flexible world.
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Post by overtired on Oct 6, 2009 12:20:48 GMT
I have to say I think you are a superb judge - you have judged me many times - not always to win - but you have been totally unbiased and fair.
I really feel for you.
We are in the process of booking NPS judges for one of our shows in Staffordshire - we would like someone out of area, the NPS judge that we have tried hasn't even had the decency to return our calls or emails.
When one judge dropped out last year - I spent a whole day trying to get an NPS judge, after 25 phone calls I finally got one. It isn't easy. As much as I love the NPS, they are not making it easy for people.
I hope you soon get put back onto the A panel
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Post by peacefultwo on Oct 6, 2009 13:32:40 GMT
For the record I think you are in my eyes one of the better judges on the circuit and have never had cause to complain with our placings at anytime. But I was commenting regarding your post and IMO and for whatever reason you have not fulfilled the criteria at present to continue at the level you currently judge. I for one think it would be a crying shame if you just sit back and do nothing about it as you will be sorely missed BUT I still feel that five years is long enough for anyone to fulfill the requirements needed. I was not intending to cause offence just stating how I see it.
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Post by fmcvet on Oct 7, 2009 13:49:15 GMT
Thanks for the really lovely constructive and supportive comments . It is really interesting to hear the opinions given, and I am truly grateful for the comments about my judging ability. Like every judge, I just go out and do my best, but you never really know how it appears to others. Peacefultwo – I agree that I haven’t (through no fault of my own) fulfilled one part of the requirements for being on the A panel. I agree that 5 years of 365 days a year is a lot of chances to attend something which you need to attend, if one is not tied to a single annual date at an awkward time of the year. In my case (again through no fault of my own), I have been unable to attend a pre-set fixed date one-day-of- the-year conference (usually 300 miles away) over 5 years – due either to prior family or judging commitments, or because of the type of work I do, which involves working at weekends, an emergency service and an ability to respond to disease reports or outbreaks. I am always short of weekends in the autumn, as I am making up for extra weekends I have taken off in the summer. I genuinely thought the NPS had liaised with the HPS to provide another option, which would have solved my (and possibly others') problems, if allowed, even if for one year only. I don’t think I am a worse judge now than I was at any stage over the last 30 years, but I haven't been able to make time which doesn’t exist to attend one of these 5 fixed date conferences. This, though explained on the phone, and not my fault, has led to me being penalised by demotion after 30 years on the main panel, which is upsetting. It also actually indirectly penalises shows, secretaries and competitors by reducing their options. Rules are rules and it is up to the NPS how they choose to apply them. I have thoroughly enjoyed most of the judging I have done, and it is a rare privilege to judge ponies of the calibre I have seen in many of the classes over the years
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Post by kickon on Oct 26, 2009 12:18:33 GMT
There are not enough judges and rules are for a guide line in this case. The idiot sending the letters need a brain!! But there will always be a jobs worth
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Post by FMCFan on Oct 26, 2009 19:44:26 GMT
We think you are great and it would be an awful shame to lose you. My daughter won her first sash under you and we always smile when we see your name in a schedule as we know we will be judged fairly. We would just like to say that as a judge you are a rare breed and one that should be nurtured and looked after so that you may pass on your knowledge and skills to others.
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Post by Artistic on Oct 27, 2009 19:13:28 GMT
I have read this post and at no time would I ever have thought the original poster was self centred, if any thing completely the opposite, here we have a lady who has given a great deal of time to put something back into a sport she clearly loves, she seeems to be well respected and knowledgeable. I understand that rules have been breached, but in the great scheme of things five years quickly passes, I would take, at a guess that many of us have friends and relatives we have promised to visit etc in this time frame but have not managed to fit it in, I know I have. The pace of life moves very quickly even more so when you have lots of commitments, (family, job, etc) It only seems like a blink of an eye and we were approching last christmas and here we are again its really quite scarey where time goe's. As I see it, this lady has previously missed four meetings, would it not have been better for the NPS to contact her last year, reminding her of the fact that she had to attend this year or they would penalise her, that way maybe alternative arrangements could have been made to suit all parties. Rules sometimes can be bent but not actually broken, after all we do live in a flexible world. I couldn't agree more. Surely the only question here that matters is, "Is the NPS happy to lose a judge of this calibre and experience?" This judge is a vet working vet's hours. With that commitment and the family she describles, I can very well see how easily 5 years has sped past - it's regrettable, but true. Sometimes, in special circumstances, a little bit of leeway and flexibility and human understanding go even further than a judges' conference - don't they?
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fredaf
Junior Member
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Post by fredaf on Oct 27, 2009 20:00:40 GMT
This is an interesting thread and various viewpoints have been stated.
However it seems very strange that ones ability to be an A panel judge appears to rest entirely on attending one 'training' event every five years.
It would be interesting to know what pariticpation is required in the event. Do people simply turn up and listen or is there active participation?
As the rules change frequently, and the rule book can be read this is obviously not the reason for attending, so what particular expertise do attendees gain from one of these days that cannot be gained at an event organised by another society?
Should the NPS be asking judges to keep a log of their judging committments with a reflective diary, this would be far more useful than simply turning up at a study day which may or may not be relevant to the particular interests of a particular person, this could then be submitted to a panel for evaluation and would surely be more useful. It would show that the person was able to evaluate for example conformation, breed type, way of going, as well as trends which may be appearing or disappearing.
The time taken to do this would in many cases by considerably less than the time committment to travel 300 miles or more, the cost of staying in a hotel/b&b as well as expense of arranging child care, annimal care etc etc.
Most professions now require a log of training/development know as continuing professional development and this would surely do more to assist in ensuring judges were fully conversant with guidelines and regulations than simply having a jolly day out.
Perhaps we could discuss?
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Post by Guestless on Oct 29, 2009 11:07:17 GMT
Perhaps we could discuss? Absolutely, but perhaps you would like to start a thread in the lounge so this one doesn't go off topic
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