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Post by gadabout on Dec 17, 2009 0:35:45 GMT
Kiwi I am sorry to hear that you are disillusioned by the judging, I assure you that there are good fair judges out there, me being one of them. I am wonderful to the children and encourage them all I can. These are our future riders, and I remember my son doing 1st ridden and a man judge bellowing at him to get on with it boy! he was quite put off by this, Morgan is now 40 yrs old. I am always happy to explain why I have placed a pony in its position, and I would judge exactly like Emma Jane. Some ponies get better as the day goes on and there is different criteria for fr and ridden showing. Do not give up.
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kiwi
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Post by kiwi on Dec 17, 2009 13:21:09 GMT
Oh gadabout, how I wish we could find judges like you!!!!!!!!! Most judges do not even talk to the children anymore, they just hand over the rosette with not so much as a word to the child!! How can they improve with NO input!!!!  ? |
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Post by Balvenie on Dec 17, 2009 13:42:11 GMT
There are alot of judges who are brilliant with children. Judges who will try and encourage them. There is too much talk about the bad ones. Its about time there were some positive comments directed to judges,instead of all the negativity.
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Post by robertparkerjones on Dec 19, 2009 23:02:27 GMT
Couldn't agree with you more!!
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Post by ladybird on Dec 20, 2009 9:10:25 GMT
she sounds a perfect judge, taking time (HER time) to engage with the children and being interested in their ponies, pity more arent like her imo.
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Post by nat12 on Dec 20, 2009 19:27:12 GMT
corrupt, or is it maybe people just not getting the results they want? i do believe there are some not so well behaved judges out there, but most are good and people need to spend a day or 2 in their shoes, on their side of the ropes to understand most of the decisions made.
How many would do their job?
Overbent, who was this judge? we have been under quite a few older chaps who have been this way, it is very pleasing to see judges taking their time with the jockeys but sometimes time is of the essence and not always possible to say more than well done.
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kiwi
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Post by kiwi on Dec 20, 2009 21:15:48 GMT
sometimes just a well done would be nice!!!!
Yes...there are some fair judges.......but also some very facey ones too!!!!!!
Its not just because we haven't won....and I must say on some occasions my daughter has won when I really didn't expect her too!! Its a strange old world showing!!!!!
My previous point is that surely first riddens should be first riddens!!!!! Ponies that don't buck, spook or frighten their rider.....the judge should surely not just place the ponies that she likes!?!?
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Post by Balvenie on Dec 20, 2009 21:33:29 GMT
Ponies that don't buck, spook or frighten their rider.....the judge should surely not just place the ponies that she likes!?!? There is a thread somewhere, in internet land, about ponies bucking. It went something along the lines of pony got dropped for bucking in show, but connections didnt think it should have been! Judges can not win, no matter what they do. |
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Post by nat12 on Dec 21, 2009 8:52:53 GMT
Then they should go and read up on first ridden ponies and what is expected from them, the only place in the horsey world, where a buck is expected, is in the rodeos!
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Post by JessicaT on Dec 21, 2009 15:18:51 GMT
Alot of the trouble with MM first riddens is the age limit, far to old, should be in keeping with sp fr. At 12 you should be capable of more.
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Post by nat12 on Dec 21, 2009 15:33:32 GMT
Thats all fine and well, if jockeys have been riding since they were tiny! i think the show pony ages are stupid, they should be older, these are scaled down thoroughbreds almost!
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Post by joules on Dec 21, 2009 15:40:06 GMT
A FR class should be judged mainly on a mannerly way of going,then conformation,both are important as a pony with very good confirmation,and goes well should obviously be placed above a pony that has also gone well, but is not quite so good in conformation.It does become annoying when judges put up a pony with good confirmation but has not done a nice show ie napped bucked etc,over a nice little pony who has done a lovely show.FR ponies must be seen to be looking after their jockeys.
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halfpass
Happy to help....a lot
Return of the Dame
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Post by halfpass on Dec 23, 2009 23:37:16 GMT
I hope there is more than one lovely judge out there in showing land
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kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
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Post by kayjayem on Dec 23, 2009 23:52:08 GMT
There are hundreds Halfpass - just not everyone appreciates them LOL!!(especially if they don't win!)
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Post by robertparkerjones on Dec 26, 2009 9:15:54 GMT
The ideal of course should be the correct pony of a type preferred by a particular judge that moves and performs correctly. Manners are essential in a FR class. Whether using marks or not consideration should be made for conformation and manners. Marks are there to deduct as necessary. Judges should offer encouragement, as many of the young jockeys are very nervous. At the end constructive comments can be made to develop both pony and rider. In my opinion it is rare for displays of bad manners to be rewarded in FR classes.
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Post by honeypot on Dec 26, 2009 12:35:05 GMT
There are some lovely judges who are very kind to the children they judge but there are others who love the ponies but hate the kids.
A lot of our Judges tend to be older and unfortuately as we get older we all get set in our ways and our predjuices re enforced. If they have not been around children for many years, the way they were taught to ride and the the way children are now is very different to how they were brought up.
Many chidren in the ring do not have knowlegdable parents, they've bought the pony, paid for lessons, the matching kit, paid their entry fee and expect a result. Unfortuately its not as easy as that.
When you lose ask.
Was my pony entered in the right class? How ever nice a pony a SP should not win a SHP or M&M class plaited or not.(exageratted but you know what I mean)
Was my rider as polished as the riders above them? Your rider may have given a good show but there are some very good little jockeys who really sell their pony.
I my pony good enough? We all love our ponies or we wouldn't have bought them but every pony has faults and you have to be realistic. The competition is fierce if you not being placed and you think you've done as your best go down a level and get some confidence built up. Often in FR stage fright takes over and what they need is more practice at smaller shows where they can be helped.
The Judge.
Most of them love their job and are very knowledgable and they are not out to spoil anyones day.They may just not like your ponies type, or if its quietely correct it may a have got missed.If you really think you've been done do not go under them again. I can usually spot the type a judge is going for a ring away. The hardest judge is the one that has no type as you never know what they are looking for.
As to being corrupt judges are like the rest of us and it takes a brave person to stand out and say 'this pony today, although it has won X,Y and Z was not as good as my winner' and some Judges love a pony so much they may over look a small disobedience, as someone said
'its not a dressage competition', in their head they think that the pony was so much better than the rest that sways their choice. Its often very difficult to asses a ponies confirmation outside the ring and that too adds to the placing.
If you really think its corrupt try a season doing gymkanna on lead rien, it may be first past the post but there's an aweful lot of aggresion involved!!
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Post by Balvenie on Dec 26, 2009 14:57:01 GMT
The ideal of course should be the correct pony of a type preferred by a particular judge that moves and performs correctly. Manners are essential in a FR class. Whether using marks or not consideration should be made for conformation and manners. Marks are there to deduct as necessary. Judges should offer encouragement, as many of the young jockeys are very nervous. At the end constructive comments can be made to develop both pony and rider. In my opinion it is rare for displays of bad manners to be rewarded in FR classes. Totally agree. Also Honeypot well said! |
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Post by robertparkerjones on Dec 26, 2009 17:31:34 GMT
Sometimes an exhibitor will ask politely "any tips" or "what could we do to improve"? What we should be saying is get it sold and buy yourself something decent!!! Exhibitors often have TRAINERS or EXPERT FRIENDS who know very little or will push a pony on the promise of a little sweetener from the seller. It cost as much to feed and show a bad'un as it does a good 'un!!!! Seek the advice of people who know or do some homework about a particular pony......... they are out there, they don't all cost a fortune so take your time!!!
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Post by bunny on Dec 26, 2009 22:03:48 GMT
Sometimes an exhibitor will ask politely "any tips" or "what could we do to improve"? What we should be saying is get it sold and buy yourself something decent!!! Exhibitors often have TRAINERS or EXPERT FRIENDS who know very little or will push a pony on the promise of a little sweetener from the seller. It cost as much to feed and show a bad'un as it does a good 'un!!!! Seek the advice of people who know or do some homework about a particular pony......... they are out there, they don't all cost a fortune so take your time!!! I agree, I dont like to see judges being hassled after a class to explain themselves, it makes me cringe. Its the judges opinion and I am sure they often want to say exactly that. Manners in FR is paramount and I do, to be fair rarely see a bad mannered pony go up. A wrong leg is surely forgivable but a buck or similar, definately not. |
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Post by bunny on Dec 26, 2009 22:12:36 GMT
There was a time when in the winter people gave their ponies a break! They also had a break themselves and had time to unwind and reflect. Now its showing 24/7 and people are never satisfied. We all know how ponies should go...... we know what is acceptable and not! I agree with those people who think they should give up if they're not happy. I wouldn't waste my time or money on anything that gave me such immense displeasure!!! Totally agree, I think that as you say, both horses and owners need a break. I very rarely show, if all, in winter. Come October, my are thrown out and given time to digest experiences of the show season and actually look like scruffy M&Ms. They don't get much done with them at all until January/Febuary then they come in have their manes and tails pulled and te smartening up begins. Same goes for me, i rest and reflect on the previous year without emotion and plan my next season with or without the judges i like or dislike. ditto this too. I am often at the odd winter show but usually without my neddies who are chilling in the fields ready for next year. |
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Post by hollycane on Jan 7, 2010 11:32:23 GMT
Totally agree RPJ, Bunny and Balvenie. There's a lot of money spent that breeds much greater frustration if an animal is not winning nowadays. It almost seems like at readmill for some of these ponies who never get any time off, are shown until they are sick, lacking sparkle and ring crafty. Owners/parents and little riders expect to get a rosette and have no idea that their poor animal looks awful. They paid a lot so it should win shouldn't it?
Judges then are d**ned if they put it up because it's still a good type, with best conformation or if they put it down becuase it lacks sparkle or is misbehaving.
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Post by Giddie on Jan 9, 2010 9:33:52 GMT
QUOTE:-
"I agree, I dont like to see judges being hassled after a class to explain themselves"
I personally don't fully agree with you on this as l feel as a competitor who has paid their entry they theoretically asking the judge to judge their pony, then l think it is only reasonable to be able to ask why they have been placed where they have.
I certainly don't agree with rudeness, and l certainly wouldn't argue that l should have been higher or lower in the line, and would be accepting of my placing. However it should be that the judge should be able to justify clearly and concisely enough to give me such an answer, afterall i have paid to ask the judge of their opinion. I don't think it is acceptable for judges to respond, as frequently heard by "it is not my type"...
Having said this l am usually able now to see why l have been placed where l have but just sometimes it is blantantly obvious that the placing are a bit skiwiff!!! I personally think judges do do a good job and it is just a few that give the rest a bad name, and as a consequence all are tied with the same brush..
I shall carry on showing and enjoy it weather placed first or last
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Post by brt on Jan 9, 2010 10:01:49 GMT
QUOTE:- "I agree, I dont like to see judges being hassled after a class to explain themselves" I personally don't fully agree with you on this as l feel as a competitor who has paid their entry they theoretically asking the judge to judge their pony, then l think it is only reasonable to be able to ask why they have been placed where they have. I certainly don't agree with rudeness, and l certainly wouldn't argue that l should have been higher or lower in the line, and would be accepting of my placing. However it should be that the judge should be able to justify clearly and concisely enough to give me such an answer, afterall i have paid to ask the judge of their opinion. I don't think it is acceptable for judges to respond, as frequently heard by "it is not my type"... Having said this l am usually able now to see why l have been placed where l have but just sometimes it is blantantly obvious that the placing are a bit skiwiff!!! I personally think judges do do a good job and it is just a few that give the rest a bad name, and as a consequence all are tied with the same brush.. I shall carry on showing and enjoy it weather placed first or last Totally agree. Of course i like to win, but i show for the pure social aspect of it. I love meeting up with friends and people i have met along the way and have a great time. If the judges doesn't like what i put in front of them, hey ho, it's been a fun day anyway! Judges have a tough job of it, not everyone gets the placings they want, but have a bit of humility, i for one wouldn't want to stand around for hours in the cold for a pittance. |
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Post by norwalk on Jan 20, 2010 1:18:18 GMT
I have mixed feelings on some of these replies. I agree that judges are all too often bad-mouthed for not placing someone's "darling", but also I do think if a competitor asks POLITELY for a judges opinion (bearing in mind, if you do you should be able to take the response with good grace...), then a judge should be able to feel that they can be subjective without fear of hassle - that is what I expect of my friends when i ask their opinions, and if I value a particular judges opinion I would approach them... NOTE - I would not ask them anything just to make a point because I disagree with their decision ( you pay your money and take your chances on the day) because that is not the spirit of showing and ruins the day for everyone.
However, if you want to accept constructive criticism and advice I feel you should be able to accept whtever is said to you!
Judging can be a thankless task, we should be grateful to those who take time out from showing their own to judge the rest of us...
PS If someone is HONESTLY corrupt they should be reported through the correct channels, but beware of other people's green-eyed monsters!
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 30, 2010 9:34:29 GMT
If you are late for a class for whatever reason you should of course give it best, go away and swear quietly to yourself and not be rude to steward or judge but be fair, it isn't always the competitor's fault. It's not always easy to know when classes will be - there were some shows round here with masses of classes that started at 8am and just ran through all day. I went once for the I think 15th class which I reckoned should have been about teatime, arrived at noon to find them about to go in - yes I just made it but no riding in possible! This was riddens, all with shows to do too. And sometimes, especially IH, you need to change ponies between classes which can take a few minutes if you are on your own but a word to the ring steward when you leave with the first one should sort that one out, although I've known a case when this was done and entrance still refused. I've also ended up in the wrong class before now due to having been firstly given incorrect timing information on how a ring was going by the show sec, backed up when checking with the ring steward, who surely ought to know what they are stewarding, saying that yes, it was the sports pony youngstock class, even when I asked if it would be judged on the triangle, when it turned out to have been hunter pony youngstock! And in my other class at the same show, all the competitors were waiting in the ring for the judge to appear when an urgent call over the loudspeaker asked for the entrants in that class to go to the ring where the judge was waiting for them. And yes, we were all in the correct ring but it was the judge that wasn't there! Of course sometimes you can't get there at all - closed motorways, for example.
I can believe all you say about RC shows, but please be tolerant, everyone has to learn and they are often where people start showing for the first time. I'm sure those incorrectly turned out will have looked at those who were at the top of the line and taken notice - that's assuming there were correct ones to put at the top of course! The important thing is that all competitors should be polite and take what comes with a good grace, rudeness is inexcusable, but I hope if asked politely what a competitor could do to improve things you would just as politely give them some pointers - particularly in terms of tack and turnout in this scenario.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 30, 2010 19:12:24 GMT
No excuse though for incorrect information given by show officials when asked. Competitors don't have second sight, and one class full of plaited youngstock looks much like another if you are used to natives. SP, HP, home-produced version of either of the above, PB, sports pony..... how can you tell by looking, hence asked the ring steward. Class timing consistent with show sec's information.
Just saying it's not always easy, there may be a good reason but that's no excuse for bad behaviour of course.
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Post by thecremellosociety on Jan 31, 2010 14:25:26 GMT
we always tend to give a not before time and advise you to be ready for that time no matter how many classes in front of you as wont start before but might start bang on if noone else turns up !!!!!!
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 31, 2010 19:40:15 GMT
No excuse for being late for the first class, at least you know when that is on! Must admit the shows I go to have adult stewards, I wouldn't expect the judge to run the class, that's what you have a steward for, and what I do if I'm stewarding, under the judge's direction of course when necessary. So who are you supposed to ask what class it is - the child steward? I wouldn't interrupt either steward or judge when in the middle of judging, I would consider that bad manners. And in my case I ended up in a much earlier class than the one I should have been in, not later, we were there in masses of time. The problem was caused solely by incorrect information from show officials (adults who should know what they were doing too) - I did check with the ring steward who told me I was in the correct class - what more can I do? And it was exactly the time the show sec had told me it would be.
I am not arguing for allowing late-comers in automatically, or trying to excuse any impoliteness on the part of competitors just saying that some reasons for not being there on time are valid and may be unavoidable. And it's entirely possible to be stuck in traffic on the M25 at least on a Sunday. Motorways are often completely closed these days if there is an accident, we sat on it for an hour last summer when all 6 lanes had been closed, and I remember one Kent County Show where it was closed for most of the day in both directions and many of the competitors never got there at all, including mine who had a 7 hour trip in the lorry with no chance of a break.
Emmajane - not before times are a great innovation and much appreciated! They help a lot - and I'd have thought benefited judges too.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Feb 2, 2010 17:11:14 GMT
Peace and harmony arthur! We all have days like that.
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Post by hollycane on Feb 3, 2010 21:22:43 GMT
My tactic for latecomers is to make them stand in the middle of the ring awaiting my loud telling off. Then they go to the bottom of the line up and then I'll judge them with the rest of the class. If they are good enough they'll get a rosette but I keep reminding them that lateness is not tolerated.
Apart from anything else, rushing in without warming in never shows your animal off to it's best advantage!
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