Should I, or should I not?!

[sammyceeee]

I have a turning 3 year old section D colt. I plan on having him cut next autumn as he has a wall eye and sweet itch. A man down the road who has a herd of traditionals, has bought a new trotter x cob mare, and desperately wants my colt to cover her next season... My boy doesnt have a licence or anything, and the man is a very good friend and knows my colt, but said he doesn't register his horses so would not matter if my boy isnt licenced. If you was in my shoes what would you do? He is definately getting cut but would you let him have a bit of fun before he gets the chop? haha

[equus]

Personally I wouldn't do it. There are so many breeding reasons not to do it.

Although it sounds like your colt is a lovely boy, do you really want to risk passing on sweet itch? It is a horrible condition for any pony to tolerate and by breeding your colt, who you already know carries sweet itch, then you are passing it on in the gene-pool. The future foal may not be born with sweet itch, however, it could be a carrier and pass it on to future generations.

That is before we even get to the "indescriminate" breeding issues ...

[sammyceeee]

yes this is why i am a bit hesitant, but the owner of the mare knows very well about sweet itch and knows my lad has it. The foal will most likely be kept by him, and will not be bred from in the future, as he has a fair few already!! If he is prepared for the risks.. pros and cons, i don't ee too much of a problem as he is prepared, and still willing to do it. I know there is a risk of the foal developing sweet itch, but then again it may not develop it.. so im a bit torn!

[equus]

But what if the resulting foal was a filly? And it was a stunning filly? He would be tempted to breed from her (the same as he does your colt)?

Sorry, I have strong feelings towards sweet itch as it is horrible for any pony to have and takes special management (as I am sure you know )

[sammyceeee]

haha yes it isn't a pleasant condition, although my boys condition is quite mild, i know it can be alwful for some ponies! I suppose there are pros and cons if i do let him breed from my colt, I will have to have a serious chat with this man anyways!!

[FF]

Sweet Itch isn't passed on i'm sure, they just have it or they don't. I bought a mare who had sweet itch and kept her where she had always lived and tried every lotion and potion and feed supplememnt and then having got one already I bought another knowing it had sweet itch but I kept her at a different place. The second mare never showed signs of having it again. I bought her a Boett rug and never used it!! The other mare soon moved to the same place and then never had sweet itch also. She was sold and still doesn't have it. Alot of the time it's the enviroment there kept in that causes the sweet itch.
I know some people will still say it's passed on but that's just my thoughts and experience of it.
As for covering and then being cut, well it didn't do my friends welshie any harm. He was cut and then we found out one of the mares were in foal. Only he could be the daddy and he's that laid back he's horizontal.

[sammyceee]

thanks fabfern, well my lad has very good breeding including nebo, trevallion and pentrefelin, and as far as i know none of his family had sweet itch, i definately know his sire and dam didnt have it, so it does make me wonder whether it is passed on or not!

[eskvalleystud]

I personally wouldn't there are enough foals being bred without adding to that equation, there are many 'well bred' Section D's out their if you go through the passports of them, many have what people consider the best of bloodlines but doesn't necessarily mean they will be good to breed with or from

if you geld him before the man wants to cover and make an excuse of why you gelded him it will save you feeling that you have to offer him to the chap if he isn't an entire any longer!

[firtree]

I personally think you and this man are mad even to think about it.Saying it might pass sweet itch on it might not! I would not even chance it a little cruel i think.

[FF]

Dec 29, 2010 19:49:50 GMT firtree said:

I personally think you and this man are mad even to think about it.Saying it might pass sweet itch on it might not! I would not even chance it a little cruel i think.

I must be cruel then The mare I bought with sweet itch who now doesn't have it is busy in the field cooking me a foal. How terrible of me.

I would just make sure he's not using you just because your convenient and he probably hope free. Also does he look after them. Nothing worse than knowing your boys foal may not be looked after. I'd say it was entirely (no pun intended) your decision. There is no right or wrong as it's up to you, he's your boy. Don't be pushed into either decision.

[sammyceeee]

i think saying it is cruel is a bit harsh. His herd are all in a field, with good shelter and hay, and alot of land although they do run short of grass. all unrugged year round, and are as fat and lively as anything! I can walk 5 minutes down the road and see them everyday if i wanted haha! hes definately not the type to take advantage, he would probably offer more than i asked haha! spring is a litttle way off yet, everything my have changed by then!

[eskvalleystud]

from what I beleive sweet itch is heridatary, or research is pointing towards it being heridatary

another slant on this is that your boys nature may change slightly once he has covered and you will need to be prepared from your quiet lad changing into a chap merry for the ladies!!! even once cut and given time I have still seen one of my lads mount a mare a year after gelding which wasn't funny as was the winter and wearing rugs and one leg went through the mares back leg strap, we also had one who was super quiet but once he got a taste of things he would jump out the field even with 5ft fencing up! just to go find a lady

[firtree]

Fabfern just my own opinion my be a bit harsh but i just say what i feel.Giving sarcastic answers and haha! in your reply makes you look silly i rest my case.

[equus]

My vet also agrees it is a hereditary thing and says that even if both parents are showing no outward signs of SI, then if the stallion is carrying SI gene and is mated with a mare who also carries the SI gene then the resulting offspring will have SI.

Not a condition I would wish to breed into any pony.

It also sounds as if the man in question has plenty of horses/ponies already so why does he want more??

[firtree]

I agree with you equus.

[sarahp]

It is accepted that there are two components to sweetitch - hereditary and environmental. A tendency to develop allergies in general may well be heritable as it is in humans (does anyone say those with asthma or excema should not have children? Just a thought!) but whether it actually develops any will be down to environmental factors.

There has been a fascinating piece of research published on Icelandic ponies. Those bred in Iceland don't get sweetitch - there are no mideges there anyway - but almost invariably do when imported to this country, whereas those bred over here have the same incidence as our native bred animals.

[sammyceeee]

Someone inboxed me saying should people with asthma or hayfever not have children! I suppose it is both, but carefully managed it shoudl not be a problem! I didn't think it was a sin to breed from an animal with an alergy! And if the guy didn't breed from my colt, he would only go and chose another anyway! So it does not resolve the overpopulation of horses problem...

[nerja]

Hi I have to agree with eskvalleystud there are loads of sec D's around and with no papers ?? why bring another foal into the world ..... and as someone as said do you really want problems him thinking he his still entire and trying to get over the fance to someones mare or if you show him screaming at someones mare in season (which in the ring is a BIG no no)...... just get your little boy cut ............. Happy New Year xx

[FF]

Dec 30, 2010 13:24:15 GMT firtree said:

Fabfern just my own opinion my be a bit harsh but i just say what i feel.Giving sarcastic answers and haha! in your reply makes you look silly i rest my case.

Were in my post is a haha?? Your the one who looks silly for accusing me. You said it was cruel (your opinion) I said it wasn't and that's my opinion, so get off your box.

In my opinion and experience sweet itch isn't hereditary so that wouldn't stop me breeding other factors like temperament of the colt would.

[sammyceeee]

Fabfern i think she was aiming the haha at me im silly

[eskvalleystud]

I think you will find with the current problems with over breeding and far too many wee souls going through sale after sale, this is an emotive subject that you asked for advise on and general concensus is don't use him for breeding with quite a few different valid points

you were never intending on standing your lad at stud why then change your mind, I know you say that he will only go and use another one but you will feel better if you yourself didn't contribute to the over population of ponies, esp unregistered unpapered ones (he may say he will keep the resulting foal forever but who knows and one that has not had thought into its breeding, specific future etc may end up in goodness knows where with goodness know who)

the difference between the human breed and the horse breed is we can use our brains to determine what is bred as far as equines go and what faults to avoid if we do still decide to breed, it is far harder for humans to avoid defects as our heart rules our head, we do not start looking at prospective partners genetic history/ancestry etc before we fall in love!

I would do a bit of research re the sweet itch as have read alot on it being heridatary

[Guestless]

So when the chap said his horses weren't registered, did he mean not passported either? Personally, I would be wary for lots of reasons. If he never gets to procreate, then he won't know what he's missing once he's gelded

[firtree]

Not on my box feet firmly on the ground grow up!

[thecremellosociety]

To Many Stallions and foals about, i advocate gelding anything even the best, as its not like we dont have to many animals on our hands Also shame we cant out mares on the pill as alot should be a stallion is only half the mix cut em off like all men should be (Joke)

[sarahp]

Eskvalleystud - if you have any proper academic references I would be grateful if you could let me have them.

[sjp]

For what it's worth I have a homebred 11yo Section B mare who is a WPCS medal winner inhand but has sweet itch and I have never put her in foal incase she passes it on. So many things are hereditary! More importantly for you, why risk a change in your boys temperament just to cover someone elses cross bred mare???

[sammyceeee]

well i do appreciate everyones input and it has really helped me to come to my senses and decide that it is not worth risking my boys temperament, or health infact, for the sake of a foal which will most likely do nothing for the rest of its life! Plus the risk of sweet itch which i am sure to find out is a very frustrating and difficult condition (as this year was the first year he has suffered from it) It may have been a dream to breed from my own lad... but we live in the real world hey...

[amanda]

good call sammyceeee,

[sinead]

wise decision- un registered foals are worthless and when it becomes another mouth to feed or cut it will end up with the meat man lke all the thousand others.. besides he will be d**n cross with you if u chop his balls off after just one go at the fun!

[sarahp]

I've just been turning out all my College papers from my study and found one "On the genetic basis of equine allergic diseases: II. Insect bite dermal hypersensitivity" which states in the summary "There fore we suggest the insect bite dermal hypersensitivity is a multifactorial disease, including hereditary and environmental factors in its pathogenesis." Which is what I said above but in plain english!