judges with no clue!

[rightrein92]

i went to a local riding club show the other week and had the shock of my life. I went to support a young girl that is riding my LR/FR m&m and really did wonder why we paid the entry fee.
In the lead rein m&m there was a 13hh section b.
Then in the open m&m .....much to my suprise stood a haflinger !
then watching the working hunter i saw the juniors.. nobody got clear but one. The one was then put second to the pony with four faults because he had a little buck in canter. Now correct me if im wrong but a clear no matter how bad a show the pony does is a clear. The only clear round in the class wins it.
sorry for the rant i was just shocked as it was a royal london qualifier......(didnt get the name of the judge)x

[bundle]

I think if you look at the working hunter results from hoys last year, you will see that a clear round doesn't always preceed a one down. In fact one horse of a clear didn't even get through to the final ten and there were only 5 (?) clears I think.
Some local shows have different criteria and I see nothing wrong with a lead rein Section B if the jockey wasn't up to going off the lead rein. The Haflinger in an M&M - not quite so sure about that!

[rightrein92]

in the sheduel it stated that a clear round will be placed highest, and i thought all m&m lead rein have to be under 12hh, if the rider was incapeable shouldnt the pony have been in open lead rein?

[drea]

the way the workers scoring works now it does mean a pony or horse with faults can be placed above a clear round, jumping is a mark out of 50, confirmation 20, manners 20, style 10, as a general rule but it can differ from society to society and yes a lead rein should be 12hh and under but if its not a affilated show then the schedule may state a upper height limit if they so wish and a m&m class is for british native breeds, alot of shows that are for fun tend to relax the rules but it always pays to check the schedule hope this helps

[nici]

Check the schedule! A lot of local shows have bigger height / age limits for lead rein / first ridden classes, as they are grass roots shows and like to encourage beginners - not all kids are lucky enough to start riding at 3, some may not start until 8 or 9 and not be confident / capable of competing off lead. I think it's great that some local shows give them that opportunity.

And I've known several local shows allow both Haflingers and Fresians into the M&M class if there are active competitors with those ponies, and no foreign breed classes available. Just because it's not the affiliated rules, doesn't mean it's not allowed. In many local shows, if they don't specify the M&M breeds, I've seen anything that's generally hairy popped into M&M even if it bears no resemblance to a native breed.

[mcw]

Apr 26, 2011 21:26:35 GMT nici said:

Check the schedule! A lot of local shows have bigger height / age limits for lead rein / first ridden classes, as they are grass roots shows and like to encourage beginners - not all kids are lucky enough to start riding at 3, some may not start until 8 or 9 and not be confident / capable of competing off lead. I think it's great that some local shows give them that opportunity.

well said! i only started riding when i was 8

[thecremellosociety]

local shows run to their own rules in most cases, quite the norm for a 4 faults to beat a clear, as conformation and style marks come into it too.

A riding club near us does LR upto 13.2 i dont really agree as 13.2 is BIG for LR, but their rules, we say 12.2 for LR and 13.2 for FTFR & FR but we are a once a year show running to our rules, though if you qualify for anything you need to check the rules at the event you are qualifying for.

With re the haflinger some will let them in m & m we dont as we have rare/ foreign breeds too, SOOOOOOOO why slate the judge ?

[delfachhighwayman]

I don't see the problems with what you have mentioned. If you check the way that workers is marked you will see that a pony that went clear can still be beaten by those with faults if the confirmation and show was better.

As for the lead rein-why let that bother you- after all it is a local show where everyone can just go and have a good time?

[solitaire]

Local shows are local shows with their own ideas - one of ours allows haflingers and when i queried it was told in the country it comes from its a native pony and the schedule says native ponies not M & M and that was what won the class. If you choose to attend these classes you need to take them with a pinch of salt or only go to affiliated shows if that is the rules you want.

[heathers]

Apr 27, 2011 18:25:46 GMT solitaire said:

Local shows are local shows with their own ideas - one of ours allows haflingers and when i queried it was told in the country it comes from its a native pony and the schedule says native ponies not M & M and that was what won the class. If you choose to attend these classes you need to take them with a pinch of salt or only go to affiliated shows if that is the rules you want.

that a classic lol

hubby was showing in hand a few weeks ago and the judge asked them to change the rein,she then told hubby she never judged in hand before.she done a good job though,we took in hand champion ;D

[pencaedu]

I had to have a little chuckle at that one - I did try & tell her, but your OH was very tacful - totally ignored her, then said he was sorry, he didn't do ridden, so he hadn't understood what she meant!!!!!

I had to give her 10/10 for admitting she hadn't judged in-hand before... She wasn't supposed to be judging them there either!!!

[heathers]

Apr 27, 2011 19:14:29 GMT pencaedu said:

I had to have a little chuckle at that one - I did try & tell her, but your OH was very tacful - totally ignored her, then said he was sorry, he didn't do ridden, so he hadn't understood what she meant!!!!!

I had to give her 10/10 for admitting she hadn't judged in-hand before... She wasn't supposed to be judging them there either!!!

in hand or ridden,i think she did a good job with both,
Stan did handle it well i must say lol

[sarahp]

Unaffiliated shows run to their own rules and not necessarily any used by those affiliated to one of the showing societies, so it's a case of checking the schedule carefully. Many don't require natives to be registered anyway so basically anything goes!

On the other hand, if the WH was judged differently to what was laid down in the schedule as you say it was you would have cause for complaint.

[sally1]

We only have one local riding club showing show a year. It is meant for local people to have some fun in. It encourages local riders both young and old to have a go regardless of what type of horse/pony they ride and is therefore never going to be strict on breed/type in any of its classes. If you are lucky on the day you might come away with a rosette or even a little cup or possibly a headcollar or horse treats for a prize but the main attraction is to meet up with people that you see occasionally to have a good chat and a laugh with (or maybe commiserate with if a horse is misbehaving itself). It is certainly not meant to be a serious event.

Last year we had one m&m class which included all sorts of native type ponies and certainly you did not have to be registered to take part, one cob class which was also very mixed, a show hunter class again a very mixed class, a riding club horse/pony class (including 2 jumps), a veteran class (anything over 16 but no proof required), a lead rein class, a first ridden class, a novice rider class (under 18) and a senior rider class.

If you want to show against similar types of horse/pony i.e. m&m's and be strict about heights in lr and fr, etc. then just enter the affiliated shows and leave the small fun shows to us total amateurs who just want to enter a little fun show once in a while where we can meet up with other like minded horsey people.

[astrokeofluck2010]

many riding clubs do have different height/age limits.. but you shouldnt be slating the judge because of what has been entered into the class.. because she is judging whats infront of her.. whereas at one of our local shows recently the kitchen staff were judging!! and watching what she judges i dont think she believed that once a person had a rosette they couldnt have another!! there were two in the young handlerr one little girl had already won a class and handled her pony brilliantly the winner of the class hadn't been another class but led the pony with one hand near the head leaving the rest of the reins to dangle down , she was stood on the wrong side of the pony, didnt stand the pony up infront of the judge and couldnt make the pony trot but still won! how is this young handling of a pony i dont knoww!! note we didnt have a competitor in this class so its not sour grapes!

[123lauren098]

i only recently sold my haflinger, because i was too big on him. I looked into taking him into M&M classes, and they ARE M&M ponies, and as long as it didnt state on the schedule what breeds they have to be to enter, or that it is a British M&M class, then they are perfectly eligible to enter! haflingers are Foreign M&M ponies, therefore are allowed in Open M&M classes.

[halfpass]

May 11, 2011 19:20:44 GMT 123lauren098 said:

i only recently sold my haflinger, because i was too big on him. I looked into taking him into M&M classes, and they ARE M&M ponies, and as long as it didnt state on the schedule what breeds they have to be to enter, or that it is a British M&M class, then they are perfectly eligible to enter! haflingers are Foreign M&M ponies, therefore are allowed in Open M&M classes.

Well it is now official I have heard it all,

[ilovenatives]

Went to a PC show on sunday and in the lead rein classes the judge made everyone all trot round together on both reins then in do displays that she didnt really bother watching , then all trot round together on both reins again while she looked at her clipboard . We only did one class best rider and she downed us as the pony is fat . She also put up same 2 ponies everyclass even though large classes and much better mannered ponies that she didnt place . My mum knows the show sec and when she mentioned how the judge was running the classes said they wont be asking her back . The poor leaders who entered all the lead reins needed oxygen by the end

[Snowy]

May 11, 2011 19:20:44 GMT 123lauren098 said:

i only recently sold my haflinger, because i was too big on him. I looked into taking him into M&M classes, and they ARE M&M ponies, and as long as it didnt state on the schedule what breeds they have to be to enter, or that it is a British M&M class, then they are perfectly eligible to enter! haflingers are Foreign M&M ponies, therefore are allowed in Open M&M classes.

SO does this mean egyptian bred arabs can enter because they are 'native' to egypt?? Or Friesians because they come from netherlands?? With out sounding rude its only common sense that a haflinger is not a M&M, if a dartmoor hill pony isn't, a haflinger certainly isnt.
I would be rather miffed if my welshies got placed below a haflinger in an open m&m class.
However, if the schdule at RC level clearly states inc haflingers e.t.c then thats the individual RC rules ( I have only seen this once! and it wasn't there the next season). But as a general rule where it is not stated, they are not M&M

[sarahp]

But if it didn't specify that, and the rider said it was a NF or Welsh D or something in an M&M class that does not require registration who's to know? I've seen some VERY funny looking natives in such classes, and without registration as proof they have to be given the benefit of the doubt.

[Snowy]

Good point sarahp after all the thread title is "judges with no clue" LOL

[123lauren098]

I am only writing what I've been told by judges, other competitors and people watching. Most judges didn't know what breed he was until i told them, if any they thought he was a Icelandic (sp)! he usually got placed or won, but this is at local level, as at higher level they usually state the breed so couldn't take him in the M&M. I was told they are foreign M&M's so I took him in the class, purely because it was another thing i could enter, which made my day more fun! At my local r.c they have separate classes for Welsh Ponies and M&M's and there was all sorts going in, as it is only local level, I didn't really see the problem. I don't know what its like anywhere else, but at my local show its fun, and a good day out for everyone and everybody gets on, so if they looked M&M-like they were seen in the M&M class!!

[laurajazmine]

In all fairness one of the local shows I attended allowed Haflingers in their M&M Large breeds, the Haflinger actually won the class with my Welsh D in 2nd followed by other welshies. Their schedule doesn't state that Haflingers are allowed but obviously the judge agreed that it should be in the class.

[network]

May 11, 2011 19:20:44 GMT 123lauren098 said:

i only recently sold my haflinger, because i was too big on him. I looked into taking him into M&M classes, and they ARE M&M ponies, and as long as it didnt state on the schedule what breeds they have to be to enter, or that it is a British M&M class, then they are perfectly eligible to enter! haflingers are Foreign M&M ponies, therefore are allowed in Open M&M classes.

Haflingers are NOT M&M ponies

I am afraid I get really annoyed with people who think that they can put anything hairy into an M&M class even if breed isnt known Just because a show doesnt hold a rare/foreign breeds class doesnt mean that a Haflinger should be allowed into an M&M class, thats like me entering my Section D into the rare/foreign breeds class because there is no M&M class

[123lauren098]

Haflingers are M&M's, just not british ones, it was judges who first told me to take him into M&M classes. I do it for fun, not to win, so took him in the M&M classes, no judge ever sent me out, or said he wasn't an M&M.

[dawnie]

A Haflinger is a non British native pony so if the schedule states Native breeds and does not state the country of origin then to be fair there is no reason why they can not enter the class. No you couldn't put a section D into a rare or foreign breeds class in the British Isles as there are neither rare or foreign. The term Mountain & Moorland is used to group the British native breeds, but I guess it really is how you want to split hairs and local shows can't accommodate everyone all of the time and there has to be some give and take.

[alisony]

For those with 'foreign natives' the New Forest & Hants County show has a class for World breeds, excluding M&M's (presumably BRITISH M&M's!!). However they must still be registered with the relevant breed society. I too have been at the receiving end of foreign m&m's and it really ticks me off to be truthful, do judges really know the breed standard of the foreign breeds better than the native(to UK) breeds?

[viking]

May 15, 2011 11:38:17 GMT alisony said:

do judges really know the breed standard of the foreign breeds better than the native(to UK) breeds?

Good point alisony, especially as some judges seem to have difficulty recognising British natives.

[armada]

I think what you find at local level, as it is meant to be 'fun' and are often run by charities or individuals for their own gain, anything is, for the most part, allowed to enter everything.
I have sent stewards scuttling back to the secretary to say that there is a such and such in the ring, and it really should'nt be, only to be told there is not really anywhere else to put it, and just do the best I can. I hate doing foreigh breed classes as I am not up to press on what the breed standard is, so I have to look for what I would expect to find in my idea of correct conformation and straight movement, and if some are by breed narrow with an upright shoulder and boxy feet, I may not be aware of that, and as I dont think it is correct, then I apologise, I cant be an expert on everything, and at that level, I do find I get everything thrown at me over a season, if you want a panel judge for your rare foreign breed, go to the appropriate breed show.
I've had natives plaited up, natives in riding pony classes, and peoples idea of hacks and hunters beggars belief. I do the best I can, and offer gentle advice, whether people choose to take it or not is their concern.
I had one unpleasant individual have a go because the horse I chose to place first in a sport horse class was unplaited, and we did'nt do the class on a triangle or have 2 judges, it was a local level show, it was the best 'type' in the class, and the fact the ring was too narrow for a triangle and on a slope at that went way over the top of her head.
I chose to judge only at that level not because I am a dummy, but I have no desire to get involved in panel judging, you only have to read some of the comments on here to see that being on a panel does not, according to some, make you a demi-god, I feel strongly that if I am showing at County/National level with my ponies, I'm best staying out of the politics, thats my view, and I can concentrate on helping those who do wish to improve and go forward to a higher level, after all, that is where I started as a small child with no pressure and just enjoying my day and hopefully learning how to do better.
And without wishing to sound rude, I whole-heartedly wish people who watch and compete in workers would get their heads round the fact that because a pony jumps clear it is not neccesarily the outright winner, an animal that tows its rider into every fence, star-gazing and cat leaping over every fence and then finishing its atrociously ridden but astoundingly clear round with an out of control gallop is not superior to a nicely ridden and well balanced display with one mis-stride and a knockdown. Would I expect a child to have a good days hunting on such an animal? NO! Would I scramble aboard and not have my back teeth shaken loose by it? NO. Could I expect it to keep its head in a large field of 70+ horses on a great run or wait quietly and mannerly for me to find a gap to get in and jump that hedge or move responsively to one side or the other to quickly avoid the stopper two stride in front of me? Highly unlikely!
Is its conformation movement and temperament suitable to enable it to travel safely over meadow, moorland and plough safely? I draw my own conclusions from my many years in the field on that one.
A good working hunter has to have a d**n sight more about it than the ability to screw itself over a few fences in a show ring.

[ladywell]

Armada - very well said!!