Milliesmum
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COCKERP00S RULE!!!
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Post by Milliesmum on May 19, 2011 21:30:59 GMT
It would have to be about the issue of overbreeding in general, they will not accept the petition if it refers to a specific case. The one I had refused referred to Jamie Gray, and they wouldn't allow it.
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 19, 2011 21:35:08 GMT
Good thinking. I suggested a petition y/day but was shouted down for it.............. To be fair I dont think you were shouted down for suggesting a petition I think what upset a lot of people was your comment about a lot of"emotional females heranging the media" which did seem rather patronising when the immediate outcry(of individuals who were emotional and upset) had achieved a result in that a EOGM of the WPCS had been arranged before anyone had a chance to organise a petition! No-one had an objection to the idea of a petition as it had already been mentioned.xx I was merely raising the point that it could be viewed that way. Subsequent to that (which was two days ago) people have settled down and the disorganised tearful rabble is now co-ordinating into a mightly army. To explain - in my opinion, this sort of appaling welfare case is not the time to be weeping over poems etc. Positivity is what is required. A first, would be to round up all the entires (of all ages) on Mr EE's premises and remove them with immediate effect from the females of all ages. Probably cull the majority.
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Post by bonnieheather on May 19, 2011 21:51:16 GMT
SHSS - You talk a lot of sense, as ever. :-) We are all fighting the same fight. It would be wise for all the 'societies' to stand besides us, and we must remain open to listening to what they have to say!! We are trying to make changes, we must keep eyes, ears and arms open... Time for those that hide behind closed doors to be flushed out...
We must remain rational and clear headed in our fight. SHOUT, SHOUT, SHOUT!!!!!
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kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
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Post by kayjayem on May 19, 2011 21:51:25 GMT
I was merely raising the point that it could be viewed that way. Subsequent to that (which was two days ago) people have settled down and the disorganised tearful rabble is now co-ordinating into a mightly army. To explain - in my opinion, this sort of appaling welfare case is not the time to be weeping over poems etc. Positivity is what is required. .[/quote I know the point you were raising, and in my(and not just mine) humble opinion it sounded very patronising but not half as patronising as your last comment "disorgnised tearful rabble"? It was this disorganised tearful rabble who got the EOGM organised through their disorganised tearfull lobbying!!! Maybe one or two people did post post poignant poems but that may be their way of grieving for these ponies(we are all different) but do not overlook the sterling efforts of most of the posters on this site who have spent many hours lobbying anyone who may be able to have some clout, and got results. I find your comments extremely offensive(IMHO)
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Post by hannahlh on May 19, 2011 21:54:14 GMT
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Post by lillicob on May 19, 2011 21:54:26 GMT
This is the last i am going to say on the matter and am going to concentrate my efforts on contacting anyone i can to help implement changes to stop cases like this in the future. Targeting overbreeding and welfare within sales and studs alike.
The RSPCA as i have said countless times are the only people who have the power to act on any welfare cases, no matter how much of a song and dance is made if they visit his premises and the RSPCA and fellow vets dont think the ponies are on deaths door they wont act, and a statement will be issued, i am sure all ponies in any unfit state will be moved by himself. This case is now with everyone who has power to act upon it and it up to them how they proceed.
We all know the states of these ponies and how long it has been going on and what we would like to do, preventing it in the future is what is required. There will be worse to be seen and there are alot of cases of similar that have happened over the years within the WPCS its just that this was made public by him taking these ponies to the sale. Hundreds and thousands of people over the years have seen the states of these and other ponies at these sales and havent acted, or maybe have and it has been covered up by the society.
Making sure something is done is brilliant, people just need to be careful they focus on the main goal, which yes is to make sure Mr Evans is dealt with but to also try and make changes for the future of the thousands of other poor cases out there.
Well done everyone.
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Post by bonnieheather on May 19, 2011 21:56:02 GMT
Please do not take the comments made by SHSS personally, or to heart. Read what she has to say. We are all on the same side, and when we stand up and fight these bullies who accept the neglect of these ponies we will be called much worse....
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Post by viking on May 19, 2011 22:01:13 GMT
I was merely raising the point that it could be viewed that way. Subsequent to that (which was two days ago) people have settled down and the disorganised tearful rabble is now co-ordinating into a mightly army. To explain - in my opinion, this sort of appaling welfare case is not the time to be weeping over poems etc. Positivity is what is required. .[/quote I know the point you were raising, and in my(and not just mine) humble opinion it sounded very patronising but not half as patronising as your last comment "disorgnised tearful rabble"? It was this disorganised tearful rabble who got the EOGM organised through their disorganised tearfull lobbying!!! Maybe one or two people did post post poignant poems but that may be their way of grieving for these ponies(we are all different) but do not overlook the sterling efforts of most of the posters on this site who have spent many hours lobbying anyone who may be able to have some clout, and got results. I find your comments extremely offensive(IMHO) I also find the remarks offensive.
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Post by bonnieheather on May 19, 2011 22:04:59 GMT
For those who are looking for people to contact over this whole situation please see the top, pinned thread at the top of the lounge. If you have any further contacts, please pm Milliesmum and she will kindly add them...
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Milliesmum
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COCKERP00S RULE!!!
Posts: 23,901
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Post by Milliesmum on May 19, 2011 22:05:45 GMT
Please people, let's not argue amongst ourselves. We may have different viewpoints but WE ALL WANT THE SAME THING. We need to pull together to make sure the ponies left with this man have a positive outcome.
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Post by hs on May 19, 2011 22:21:54 GMT
On a general note the BHS are trying to campaign for responsible breeding perhaps it might be possible to join up with them to help their campaign using a real life example of what can happen.
Petitions are tricky as you need to lobby someone with some authority to make changes plus very clear ideas for legislation change often needing 1000's of signatures to make a difference.
Emotion can and has inspired people to do more and providing a real "human interest" story which makes people feel sad can often make quite a bit of difference. The BHS has been campaigning for a while about responsible breeding in a non emotional factual way but no-one has really taken much notice - where as this thread with photos and real examples has captured people's hearts and inspired lots of people to get involved.
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Post by pentaran on May 19, 2011 22:22:02 GMT
Well, I for one have done something tonight I didnt ever think I would do and that is to cancel my direct debit on line with the bank for next years membership. Transparency?? Come on Ifor you were going to clean up their act where are you? Im not blaming you but dont let everyone close ranks to try to cover their own backsides. Welfare is high up supposedly in the WPCS charities status, where is it now. That place should have been swarming today with DEFRA, Trading standards WHW, RSPCA not with flies around carcasses.
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Post by cadog on May 19, 2011 22:26:15 GMT
Please do not think that I am knocking this post but please be careful with your wording with the petition! Welsh Government are already looking at the numbers of horses bred and grazing the hills. Something is in the pipeline. However, it is likely to be an outcome that will affect ALL horse owners. It is not aimed at aimal welfare, it is foccussed on what grasses horses are grazing and that they are "damaging the mountains". I would hate to see Wales without hill ponies but do NOT want to see them as we have witnessed recently. Something has to be done to discourage irresponsible breeding and the major issue is the cost of passports and chipping. Un-scrupulous sorts are now leaving foals on the hill and colt foals can start covering at the age of 18months and i am affraid that it will come ot the point of a compulsory round up and disposing of ponies. I'd hate to see that too. Responsible breeders keeping ponies on the ill have expressed their concern to me several times. It's not fair on them either. Surely between all the bright minds on here we can come up with a solution!! We have probably all signed a petition against a "horse tax" but this would be any Governments way of reducing the number of horses in the UK. As i said, really not knocking it but we have to protect ourselves against irresponsible breeders in such ways too by not shooting ourselves in the foot in the process.
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Post by bonnieheather on May 19, 2011 22:30:00 GMT
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Post by pentaran on May 19, 2011 22:30:45 GMT
colts can begin covering much sooner than that Cadog, on thing to point out is that the ponies in question are hill ponies by breed but not by their current geographical location , they live in fields and marshes. We have ponies on marshes and sand dunes close to us here owned by various conservation societies, they are semi feral but they are certainly never that thin.
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Post by hs on May 19, 2011 22:37:33 GMT
But surely limiting the numbers on the hills to a sustainable amount would be a good idea? If there are more ponies living there than there is food to sustain them that is not going to be beneficial for anyone ponies or hill farmers - dartmoor hill ponies seem to have a similar problem.
It is not about location but having enough food for the amount of animals present be it in mountain or moorland or private farms.
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 19, 2011 22:42:53 GMT
That's an excellent idea. And what if everyone were to donate ? 50p for every show entry you make and the price of an overpriced ice-cream or a can of pop at a show - then that would be still more! Go for it. Providing that the BHS then actually do something really positive to combat welfare issues and the money is used wisely and educationally.
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Post by pentaran on May 19, 2011 22:43:16 GMT
"Only ignorance! Only ignorance! Don't you know it is the worst thing in the world, next to wickedness?" -- from Black Beauty, Anna Sewell sorry inexcusably pinched from another forum about a totally unrelated topic, but very apt here methinks.
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Post by pentaran on May 19, 2011 22:45:23 GMT
Good point hs, we do have hill ponies near us too and although their numbers are not out of control they still look very thin in the winters , I just cant see why colts and stallions cant be removed or just caught en masse and gelded!!
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on May 19, 2011 22:46:54 GMT
But surely limiting the numbers on the hills to a sustainable amount would be a good idea? If there are more ponies living there than there is food to sustain them that is not going to be beneficial for anyone ponies or hill farmers - dartmoor hill ponies seem to have a similar problem. It is not about location but having enough food for the amount of animals present be it in mountain or moorland or private farms. I think the concerns are that the powers that be will reduce numbers allowed on the hills by so much - if all the ponies are rounded up and taken off, it would be difficult to reheft them to an area I should imagine as the taking off of all the ponies would be indiscriminate too, and lead mares would not necessarily be turned back out. Unfortunately many horse owners in situations like this are left at the hands of the few extremely irresponsible owners who do not look after their stock properly and do not manage their breeding programmes! I think we all need to be careful when asking for change that we ensure a better system is put into place, not just another system!
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lfh1
Junior Member
Posts: 124
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Post by lfh1 on May 19, 2011 22:52:54 GMT
I have been reading this thread for the last hour and the stories I have heard to horrific. The pictures are so heartbreaking..that poor baby girl and her foal. How can someone be getting away with this and nothing be done. I have always been a "Welshy" girl and proud to be a member of WPCS since the age of 4 (now 26 :-(). I have been to some sales, not many but enough to know what happens sometimes and what poor ponies can be sold but at this sale those poor, poor ponies and that absolute monster of a man and his family who also all must know what is going on need to be stopped. I have always supported Horse welfare orgs but never have i ever seen or heard of anything so horrific and for this to be going on so long, for years and years. I will be writing email/letters to support everyone of those poor poor ponies and for the the ponies that have already had to suffer all the way to the end. xxx
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Post by cadog on May 19, 2011 22:57:08 GMT
Pentaran yes - i originally typed 12 months but it felt a bit peverse but true!
Good point Lizzyand??mum (sorry forgot the rest) It would be like sheep on the hill - they know their grazing area.
I think that ther is plenty of food on the hill, but most feed in the winter too. One farm I know rent a lot of land in Pembrokeshire ove the winter and take all but a few older ones off the hill down there. Stallions go to the home farm until the mating season begins properly and all their foals are chipped and passported.
If only they were all like that.............
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Post by pippard on May 19, 2011 23:13:16 GMT
Please do not get mixed up and start attaching the hill breeders. The Improvement Societies have done a lot of work in recent years to issure that the hill ponies are well looked after. Because someone is a hill breeder it does not mean he/she is overbreeding or irresponsible. Where there is overbreeding it is not confined to the Hill Ponies.
Is Cricceth a Hill Stud?
There are two issues here, the breeder who has for over ten years been having draft of ponies sold under the guise of stud reductions but continues to breed year in year out with out regard for the welfare of the stock. He needs to be brought to justice and banned from owning animals.
The other issue is whether or not we require legislation and regulation to stop overbreeding. Please do not saddle breeders with more costly red tape, the world financial situation has done that for us. Most stud have drastically reduced the number of mare they are puting in foal, they did last year and this year are reducing the numbers even further.
Instead of giving money to charities like the RSPCA, a much more practical step would be to finance the human disposal of surplus stock.
How many of you have asked the WPCS what is the point of having a Welfare Officer and a Society Vet if they do not take any action when ponies are sent to sales in such poor condition. Time the sociey changed the way they address monitoring welfare.
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supes
Full Member
Posts: 328
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Post by supes on May 20, 2011 0:55:51 GMT
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Post by poop on May 20, 2011 0:58:43 GMT
I agree with Pippard, this is not a hill pony issue, and not directly a general overbreeding issue. It is purely and simply a case of cruelty, neglect and greed that has been allowed to continue for far too long. Please remember there are big and little studs who put lot of time, money, care and thought into breeding and the welfare of their ponies.
Plese keep this on track, Criccieth is the problem here
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Post by lolly on May 20, 2011 4:21:30 GMT
Does any body know who the little grey mare and foal are doing ...just wondered if they have settled in their new home, it would be lovely to have updates on her progress
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on May 20, 2011 5:08:47 GMT
On the subject of the BHS and their overbreeding initiative (sorry, not directly Criccieth I know but following on from above) - I wonder how many of you are actually members? They work for the benefit of all those involved with horses in all sorts of ways and deserve supporting by your membership, not just when heartstrings are tugged.
Agreed - the first thing to be done is to sort out the situation on the ground at Criccieth, not sure how though in a legal and practical way, presumably that's down to the welfare agencies, but pentaran's suggestion of removing the entires is a good first step, closely followed by attention to the ponies that need it most. It has been said somewhere that the stud is closing down and selling up, let's hope it really happens.
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Post by sageandonion on May 20, 2011 6:54:33 GMT
Going off track, the remarks referred to were offensive to some, disgraceful to others. The subject of neglect and cruelty at this sale should not be an item to debate and people should be ashamed that they know the individuals, not bragging about it.
The problem generally is huge. However, is it not our first objective to ensure the remaining ponies are helped, the person(s) brought to justice and then move on to the wider issue. We can make a difference here, now, in this case, thereafter is a very long term project.
If we do not focus, go off at tangents, we dilute the objective. Please can we return to the task in hand and continue with our letters, email, etc today.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 7:03:55 GMT
Haven't been able to get on line since yesterday afternoon.
Any news from the meeting?
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Post by sageandonion on May 20, 2011 7:37:00 GMT
Welcome Candace, thank you for joining us, please would you highlight what is happening over here with as many people in France as you can. You advice is much welcomed, we do need organisation, but I think we need to get a Welfare organisation to lead us and that is why we are trying for as much publicity as possible in the hope that one of them will step forward and up to the mark. It might be we simply have to shame them into doing it!
Candace is right though, on many counts. May I suggest we stop chatting, bickering and really start focussing and being coordinated. Let's leave room for the evidence and actions/suggestions of action. This thread is reaching a long way, lets do it right!
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