|
Post by shonat on Jun 28, 2007 12:23:47 GMT
Dear all, I own a young section D stallion, currently out on the circuit with professional rider. This cob is no more than 14.3hh with a big, big front and big ground covering movement to match. I have owned him since choosing him from the Welsh hills as a foal. We do have high expectations for this cob but like many stallions, he a a few years away from being fully developed and ready for the higher level of competition.
My own history consists of being trained to ride by a dressage trainer for many years. Now, as the owner/rider, when I get on this cob after his novice training year finishes, I expect that I will initially carry on as I always have and ride him the way I have been taught. I obviously intend to take on new trainer, but I would like to hear from owners, riders and producers of the ridden show Welsh cobs and stallions, whether anyone has schooled successfully purely on dressage training or a combination, and developed the correct way of going required for the ridden Welsh D showring.
The reason I ask, over the years so many people in the ridden M&M circuit have told me NOT TO USE dressage trainers for Welsh Cobs.
Your comments and experiences would be much appreciated.
|
|
|
Post by dobtoth on Jun 28, 2007 12:36:34 GMT
Shouldn't be any reason why you can't do both. Dressage is just about correct training - not about changing natural paces. There are lots of natives out there dong extremely well. I know of a 13h Fell pony that competes at advanced dressage. If you watch many show riders they tend to push their ponies out of rhythm and go for big, rushed trot everywhere but it's really not necessary. Done properly a medium or extended trot on a Welsh Cob looks stunning and this is only achievable with correct training - getting the pony to take the weight behind, coming up off the forehand Just my opinion but will be sure to be shot down in flames for it
|
|
|
Post by Guestless on Jun 28, 2007 12:46:17 GMT
I can't see a problem in using someone with dressage training either.....although I guess there could be a danger of some attempting to push your cob out of his natural paces which is probably why showing people have advised you to steer clear. My instructor competes in dressage and showing, so he has a good knowledge of both. IMO one of the main advantages of having someone with dressage background is that they are not so keen on the quick, short term fixes to a problem and tend to look deeper for a longer term resolution.....that's an advantage to me, but others may see it as a disadvantage!
|
|
|
Post by veryold on Jun 28, 2007 12:51:33 GMT
I agree, correct traing is just that, regardless whether it is for showing or dressage. I always think Olympia is a real eye opener because so many ponies don't perform that well and you wonder how they managed to qualify. The reason is that they qualify in big, outdoor arenas and when they get to Olympia they aren't actually producing extensions from behind and haven't got enough room to show an extension by rushing along on their forehand. Welsh Cobs have always done well in dressage with their naturally active paces, so do your dressage training with your chap and I'm sure it will benefit his showing.
|
|
|
Post by ponygirl on Jun 28, 2007 13:08:13 GMT
I can't see a problem in using someone with dressage training either.....although I guess there could be a danger of some attempting to push your cob out of his natural paces which is probably why showing people have advised you to steer clear. Actually more likely to be the other way round Guestless. Proper dressage trainers are very hot on keeping within the rhythm and not pushing out of it - lengthened strides are just longer steps, not quicker ones
|
|
|
Post by lesleym on Jun 28, 2007 13:18:23 GMT
I have the same trainer as guestless and to be honest I am very lucky as he will have help me in both disciplines I do well at with my HW hunter. He has a great understanding of both showing and dressage and we can work the horse for the next competition, be it dressage or showing. To be honest if I did not do dressage my 18.2hh HW hunter would not be as balanced, correct and light on the forehand in a snaffle ( even better with a double) if we only did showing, he is also this year getting moved up the showing line after the judge rides, due to his correct way of going and light in the hand ride( judges words not mine). My lad has managed to do well in both showing this year and has qualified for the RIHS and the Regional dressage champs.I also feel that it helsp the horse to do something else than showing and dressage is a good alternative.
|
|
|
Post by busybusy on Jun 28, 2007 13:27:31 GMT
We have a pony who excels at SHP classes. He is also successful "between the boards" and won our area Pony club dressage last year. As someone has said above, correct schooling is correct schooling. When working at a higher level your pony should be able to stretch and lower (something we always do when working in and cooling down) yet should find it easy to work in a more uphill outline. This true self carriage will make him look far better in the showring than anything just pulled in in front and going with an incorrect bend. He will also move far better from the shoulder as well as tracking up behind. I think the two disciplines are completely compatible......just leave the white numnah in the lorry!! LOL.
|
|
|
Post by Guestless on Jun 28, 2007 14:13:20 GMT
I can't see a problem in using someone with dressage training either.....although I guess there could be a danger of some attempting to push your cob out of his natural paces which is probably why showing people have advised you to steer clear. Actually more likely to be the other way round Guestless. Proper dressage trainers are very hot on keeping within the rhythm and not pushing out of it - lengthened strides are just longer steps, not quicker ones You're probably right which is why I said "I guess..." I was just pondering over those Highlands that are pushed out of their natural strides to go like riding horses, but I have no knowledge about what kind of training they get to do that!
|
|
|
Post by ponygirl on Jun 28, 2007 17:35:27 GMT
Not sure which Highalnd you mean Guestless but mine goes like a Highland should and still got over 70% for his last dressage
|
|
|
Post by ednalad on Jun 28, 2007 20:24:09 GMT
I for one have had the odd lesson or two with very good dressage trainers and i must say that although they were very in tune with there methods of "dressage " training, i DID NOT help my cobs for future welsh ridden classes....if any thing..the opposite... If you can find a trainer who understands how a welshie should go...then great!!....if not...steer clear... just my own personal thoughts.....
|
|
|
Post by Mover on Jun 28, 2007 20:33:18 GMT
Are you going to try the NPS dressage. Sounds a good move
|
|
|
Post by Guestless on Jun 29, 2007 8:28:15 GMT
Not sure which Highalnd you mean Guestless but mine goes like a Highland should and still got over 70% for his last dressage Probably best that I don't mention which ones but they are quite obvious when you see them in the ring! There's a Fell up here doing VERY well in dressage (competing at medium level) but his owner has clipped off his feather. Sadly up until then his scores were very average but now that his feather is clipped, his scores have increased dramatically.
|
|
|
Post by go for it on Jun 29, 2007 10:04:17 GMT
The idea of dressage training is for a horse to be balanced and able to use himself to his best ability.
Any dressage training is a great advantage.
A slow deliberate elevated trot using the backend is much better than going flat out overtaking everything in sight.
|
|
|
Post by Highland fan on Jun 29, 2007 12:25:17 GMT
I also know of a Highland who has beaten all the expensive dressage horses locally in a prelim league who has not been pushed out of his natural & correct Highland way of going, nor has he ever been plaited or trimmed up.
I'm looking forward to seeing him go affiliated with his new rider as he has 3 correct paces, good natural rhythm but on occasion gets tense & loses the plot.
He will never have the best extension but finds collected & lateral work very easy instead.
|
|
|
Post by Lexy P on Jun 30, 2007 13:20:47 GMT
I must admit, I do find some of the opinions on this thread quite baffling. "there could be a danger of some attempting to push your cob out of his natural paces" and "although they were very in tune with there methods of "dressage " training, i DID NOT help my cobs for future welsh ridden classes....if any thing..the opposite..." What is it about dressage training that you think would push cob out of natural paces or in any other way be of hinderance to ridden welsh classes ? I agree with the other side expressed by others - correct schooling is correct schooling. And whether you are then going into a show ring or a dressage arena - all the basics of rhthym, balance, impulsion, obedience should still be required. And you should be able to succesfully competing in both. I have training with a dressage trainer who adores my welsh cob and has done wonders for his way of going. He still has a few other issues in the ring when he gets stressed out, but his actual way of going has improved leaps and bounds. And yes - I am going to be doing NPS Dressage - first one tomorrow ! Good luck with your stallion - go out and dressage with him and show all those big plaited horses how it is done Lexy.
|
|
|
Post by Lexy P on Jun 30, 2007 13:23:30 GMT
A good example of this is Saith Magical Dream - she was trained and shown by a dressage rider, and look at her extended trot. Wow !
And if you watch her compared to some others, it was a PROPER extended trot with her hind legs really coming through and not what many cobs do (both IH and ridden) which is to trail the back legs, and just throw the front ones out. Not truely working through the back and in balance.
Lexy.
|
|
|
Post by nli on Jun 30, 2007 18:45:17 GMT
please could someone tell me the definate rules on biting in the dressage classes at the NPS - i have emailed the NPS and they dont know - they have forwarded my email to the organisers of the dressage at the summer champs - but as yet no reply. PLease can someone advise - BD rules or not???
|
|
|
Post by Lexy P on Jun 30, 2007 20:12:14 GMT
Yes is BD Rules
Tack Ponies must compete in tack adhering to British Dressage Rules. Ponies may only be ridden in the tack they compete in whilst on premises of each qualifier and final. Any rider/trainer/owner/groom not conforming to this rule will eliminate the pony concerned from the competition forthwith.
(from SEWPCA Schedule which is holding NPS Dressage qualifiers tomorrow)
Lexy.
|
|
|
Post by info on Jul 1, 2007 8:27:26 GMT
The british dressage do have a good website, but I am not able to put a link totally useless in that way. You put it in google and it will come up.
|
|
|
Post by ednalad on Jul 1, 2007 9:51:18 GMT
saith Magical dream is a different story....Tracy betrolli is a very very experienced cob rider/producer as well as dressage rider.....and yes very good too!! as for the natural paces i agree.....but many dressage trainers seem to want more and more collection... you can spot a dressage trained cob a mile off in the ring...collected/collected/collected!!. Is this a natural ryhtym for them? I am not against dressage training...just simply saying make sure you get someone who knows about cobs too..it makes a HUGE difference
|
|
|
Post by hammocks on Jul 1, 2007 9:57:13 GMT
I do agree with you and if you are riding any m&m you should know what their paces should be, but from collection you can still get fantastic paces. A big word that everyone is forgetting is Candence which can be achieved at any pace.
SMD to me was alway too overbent, maybe as she was a tense pony, but when she moved she moved.
|
|
|
Post by nappyneddy on Jul 1, 2007 10:01:10 GMT
I couldnt agree more Ednalad... I too have had lessons with a very good dressage trainer who loves my cob( and rides him )..she also knows how a cob should go...which has helped me a huge amount. Not like a previous trainer i had .....drill drill drill...and like you said in your post did the opposite and made my boy go far worse than when we started!!! If you have a trainer who suits you and you like..then brilliant..if not look elsewhere
|
|
|
Post by blackknight nli on Jul 1, 2007 10:22:18 GMT
I have lessons with a dressage trainer/rider Simone Ward and she is brilliant, she understands the natural way of going in a pony and just how to get the best from them. I have had lessons on C's and Fells with her and she helped me start the connemaras that i had, Cathael and Troubadour ( who went on to win HOYS last year with Debbie Boylan).
Both ponies that i have through to HOYS this year i have had help with and she has improved them no end, explaining how to get them working through from behind without forcing the movement or fixing them. Im all for using a dressage trainer providing they understand what is required of your pony in the show ring- basic correct training cannot be wrong...
|
|
|
Post by Lexy P on Jul 1, 2007 21:38:56 GMT
I think like anything there are is a wide variation within the category of "dressage trainer" so on that basis it is quite hard to say ALL are either good or bad. My own dressage trainer is a full time dressage rider and trainer, and attends the TTT (Teaching Trainers for Tomorrow). In fact she moved down to South East specifically to do so !! And trains with likes of Arthur Kottas, Stephen Clarke etc. This is from a report on a recent TTT clinic: "The clinic clearly demonstrated the effect of suppleness on the way of going within the paces. Klaus’s advice included: “forwards is good, but running is never good”; “never push the horse more forwards than you can give the rein”; and “first relax the horse and then bring more impulsion from behind”. The result was the sight of unrestricted necks and therefore swinging backs." So as you can see from this - this style of teaching and riding is definitely not trying to push the horse out of natural pace. My trainer knows nothing about cobs specifically or showing - but for me that is not required. It depends if you are looking to be taught on show ring skills and tips - or just the way of going and feel confident in what you are meant to be doing in show ring (even if does not always happen that way !). Interestingly I have had one judge say to me in Picton class last year .. (judge) "Do you do dressage with your pony ?" (me) "yes" (judge) "Hmmmmm. I can tell" (in disapproving tone!!) So not quite sure what the implication there was ..... that she was going on the bit and sensibly so she was not being true to type somehow ?! And maybe needed more knees up to chin for judge's liking Who knows hey. Lexy.
|
|
|
Post by julie on Jul 2, 2007 10:46:33 GMT
I have the same trainer as guestless and to be honest I am very lucky as he will have help me in both disciplines I do well at with my HW hunter. He has a great understanding of both showing and dressage and we can work the horse for the next competition, be it dressage or showing. To be honest if I did not do dressage my 18.2hh HW hunter would not be as balanced, correct and light on the forehand in a snaffle ( even better with a double) if we only did showing, he is also this year getting moved up the showing line after the judge rides, due to his correct way of going and light in the hand ride( judges words not mine). My lad has managed to do well in both showing this year and has qualified for the RIHS and the Regional dressage champs.I also feel that it helsp the horse to do something else than showing and dressage is a good alternative. Did you take him to Three Counties? We saw an enormous horse, light on his feet and lovely though we did spend most of the time wondering how on earth you change wet rugs on him (LOL!!)
|
|
|
Post by info on Jul 2, 2007 18:34:00 GMT
I have been emailed back reguarding bits - and they say its pony club rules on tack? looked on their website and cant get the rules up - any one got any ideas on their rulings on bits???
|
|
|
Post by Lexy P on Jul 2, 2007 21:26:31 GMT
From NPS Dressage Trial info sheet:
A new competition to encourage both performance and education of british bred ponies and their riders is to be trialed across the south of england. Qualifiers will run from July and culminate in the NPS TopSpec Southern countries dressage trial gala to be held at the prestigious show venue Addington on Sunday 13 April 2008. Stabling will be available.
The competition will be run under British Dressage Rules and be judged by British Dressage judges using BD tests Prelim 4 & Novice 21 throughout. Standard entry fee at all qualifers - apart from summer champ show venues - will be £10 per test.
For more info: Angela Kember: angela.kember@btinternet.com Tracey North: tracey@northhome.plus.com
Hope this helps.
I am guessing that since this is a very new competition, there may be be people in NPS office who dont know much about it yet.
Lexy.
|
|
|
Post by lesleym on Jul 3, 2007 12:19:09 GMT
I have the same trainer as guestless and to be honest I am very lucky as he will have help me in both disciplines I do well at with my HW hunter. He has a great understanding of both showing and dressage and we can work the horse for the next competition, be it dressage or showing. To be honest if I did not do dressage my 18.2hh HW hunter would not be as balanced, correct and light on the forehand in a snaffle ( even better with a double) if we only did showing, he is also this year getting moved up the showing line after the judge rides, due to his correct way of going and light in the hand ride( judges words not mine). My lad has managed to do well in both showing this year and has qualified for the RIHS and the Regional dressage champs.I also feel that it helsp the horse to do something else than showing and dressage is a good alternative. Did you take him to Three Counties? We saw an enormous horse, light on his feet and lovely though we did spend most of the time wondering how on earth you change wet rugs on him (LOL!!) Julie no I did not but I heard about the one you are talking about. my boy takes a 7'6" rug and generally I just have to chuck it on him and hope for the best, although I have my big steps that I take to all shows LOL
|
|
|
Post by who qualified on Jul 3, 2007 12:30:21 GMT
From NPS Dressage Trial info sheet: A new competition to encourage both performance and education of british bred ponies and their riders is to be trialed across the south of england. Qualifiers will run from July and culminate in the NPS TopSpec Southern countries dressage trial gala to be held at the prestigious show venue Addington on Sunday 13 April 2008. Stabling will be available. The competition will be run under British Dressage Rules and be judged by British Dressage judges using BD tests Prelim 4 & Novice 21 throughout. Standard entry fee at all qualifers - apart from summer champ show venues - will be £10 per test. For more info: Angela Kember: angela.kember@btinternet.com Tracey North: tracey@northhome.plus.com Hope this helps. I am guessing that since this is a very new competition, there may be be people in NPS office who dont know much about it yet. Lexy. Anyone know who qualified for Addington at the South East Welsh Show. Heard they had plenty in the classes and it went on for hours
|
|
|
Post by Lexy P on Jul 3, 2007 15:08:23 GMT
Hi,
No I dont know - they started at 12.30 and I left at 4pm and they were still going !! Because they were running all the classes at same time, and you just turned up and did your test, there were no results to be had. Or even marks to be had at that stage.
Waiting for my sheet and results in the post .... hoping will arrive tomorrow.
Lexy.
|
|