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Post by home on Jul 5, 2007 15:34:34 GMT
So you are saying that any pony over 14.2, be it a welsh or connie etc then they should not be allowed to compete in these classes? What tosh! As I have already said above why do you think either Puk or NPS has any right to enforece a height restriction when the actualy Breed societies do not do this? Connemaras are restricted by their breed society - over 14.2hhs are put in the part-bred register. Obviously as they don't have to be officially measured, an overheight one could still compete in the classes if the breed society wasn't aware they were overheight.
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Post by Disagree on Jul 5, 2007 16:28:22 GMT
I just said connies as an example, I know nothing about their breed regulations, but i just backs up my point, the connie society does have an upper height limit, the WPCS dont for the cobs.
How would the connie people feel if Puk or NPS went and took off that height limit and go against what the breed society stipulates in the breed description? Its the same with the cobs....just the other way around.
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Post by Measured in on Jul 5, 2007 16:57:22 GMT
We're talking about our native breeds here - many Welsh D's once trimmed do extremely well in the plaited workers where they wouldn't necessarily do well in heritage due to loss of type etc.
It is only the Welsh Pony & Cob Society that has no upper height limit on a type - every other breed society has strict upper height limits.
It seems daft to me that you could have even a typey Welsh D that was say 15.3 against true ponies upto 14.2.
Historically the definition of a pony within the UK has been an equine measuring upto 14.2hands high, now metricised to 148cm.
Polo ponies often aren't actually that much bigger & I'd be interested in where the term polo pony came from - I suspect from simply that when it was first played in India it was played on their native ponies which are tiny & the term stuck as there was no true breed involved - any breed can be a polo pony from my understanding but the recognised type these days is a small TB.
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Post by fact on Jul 5, 2007 18:12:32 GMT
Although I agree with your original argument I must point out that you are not totally correct in your assumption that all other breed societies have ,and enforce, strict upper height limits.
The Dales pony society removed their upper height limit a few years back. The preferred height is 14.2 and although allowed .Judges are instucted to penalise ponies substatially above and BELOW the preferred height limit.
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Post by Measured in on Jul 5, 2007 20:06:16 GMT
Although I agree with your original argument I must point out that you are not totally correct in your assumption that all other breed societies have ,and enforce, strict upper height limits. The Dales pony society removed their upper height limit a few years back. The preferred height is 14.2 and although allowed .Judges are instucted to penalise ponies substatially above and BELOW the preferred height limit. I stand corrected - thank you. However, is this relaxing of breed type desirable - another topic I think & one that has been raised before elsewhere. We seem to have lost sight of how these ponies evolved, most are now kept on over-rich grazing instead of the rough hills they survived on for centuries. Should we be raising height limits to allow for this or should we be looking at how we're keeping youngstock, not only gradually 'polluting' the breeding stock with larger ponies but also running the risk of yet more fat native ponies at risk of laminitus?? We run the risk of homogonising (spelling??) our wonderful native breeds into one main breed with slightly different types within - not an option I even want to consider. Breeding true to the original breed standards should be the aim of anyone breeding ponies in my view & that includes penalising ponies that go over the height limit.
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lantau
Junior Member
Posts: 121
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Post by lantau on Jul 6, 2007 1:09:55 GMT
Big cobs are nothing new, They were bred big and small long before you and i were about, and many of the great ancestors of our cobs today were 15hh +. My welsh cobs range in hight from 1 not expected to make much over 14.2hh to 1 that stands just under 15.2hh, both have plenty of bone/type/movement and good temprements and both will and have held there own in the show ring at top shows both in england and wales. Welsh cobs are not intended to be all under 14.2, they are not all suppose to be ponies, the welsh C is the PONY of cob type the D is a COB! If you dont like competing against a cob because it is over 14.2hh maybe you should get one!
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Post by notloggedin on Jul 6, 2007 11:57:59 GMT
This topic has raised an interesting debate. However, rather than native types, my concern was with the plaited classes where there is a definate height span offered (eg exceeding 133 cms but not exceeding 143 cms)....and the amount of ponies in these classes (not just the 143, just used that as an example!!) who are very obviously overheight.
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Post by Gee Gee on Jul 6, 2007 12:15:55 GMT
The reason overheight ponies are so prevalent is that there is no deterrent. I know of several ponies over recent years who have competed for many years when they were obviously over height - nobody ever makes an official objection because it is too expensive and probably beause people do not want to be involved in controversey. Eventually these ponies have become HOYS Champions and have been measured out. Their only punishment is that they have to compete in the bigger class in future. They do not lose their HOYS title or any others, there is no fine and in fact no disgrace. I have heard many people sympathise with these people that their poor pony now has to jump the bigger heights. There never seems to be any sympathy for the poor ponies they have beaten time and time again when they should not have even been in the class.
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Post by skint on Jul 6, 2007 14:09:47 GMT
Bellabella You have written a lot of common sense and I totally agree with you. As for the person that said they you dont see many small D's worthy of hoys and olympia I think it is because people dont tend to show them, I have seen some lovely Sect D's out in the field and thought lovely pony but just not big enough
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Post by shonat on Jul 6, 2007 19:38:35 GMT
Do over height ponies simply manage to ' fill the eye', and to do so, does this automatically mean the animal needs extra height and/or fat, or should it be that the elusive but most desirable 'star quality and presence' we should be looking for, regardless of whether we have a height advantage or not? As someone said recently, 'Form will pass but quality lasts for ever'! As I notioned in my previous post, that fashion will be driven from the successes scored from within the showring. If competitors can so easily identify the over height animal, then so should the judges.........
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Post by welshdfan on Jul 6, 2007 22:26:16 GMT
Hi, i have been reading this debate with great interest. i have got a 14.1hh welsh d who i plan to show under saddle soon, it will be interesting to see how he fares, he looks bigger than he is due to his big front and good length of rein. from what i can see of the d's in my area they seem to split themselves into 2 different types, there are the chunky leg in each corner types of around 14.2 - 14.3hh max, with a huge depth of girth, and a taller, finer type with less depth and more leg. personally i prefer the smaller stocky type and don't like to see a welsh cob over 15.1hh after that it becomes a horse, even show cobs are limited at 15.1hh. locally there is a d of 16.1hh, but it is trimmed at plaited and does open worker classes as well as sj, it is a lovely animal but isn't IMHO a true cob - it is built like a hunter. at the end of the day it will be down to a judge's decision, but i think it will be a sad day if our native breeds are allowed to grow tall and leggy, and lose their individuality, we might be in danger of ending up with nothing but boring warmblood types that all look the same! (no offence to warmblood owners intended!)
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Post by The Officiator on Jul 6, 2007 23:43:34 GMT
I dont think there is anyone who hasnt heard of
NEBO BLACK MAGIC - he was 15 hands
There I rest my case
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Post by five on Jul 7, 2007 8:49:53 GMT
I dont think there is anyone who hasnt heard of NEBO BLACK MAGIC - he was 15 hands There I rest my case But which Nebo Black Magic were they talking about??
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Post by lincolstables on Jul 8, 2007 14:16:49 GMT
officiator...NEBO BLACK MAGIC was 15 h and registered Welsh D...I always thought there was no height restrictions on Ds
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Post by PEBBLE on Jul 8, 2007 15:31:23 GMT
I have no objection to big welsh D's providing they retain there pony head and there overall pony appearance.
I have scene some rather large small hunters that are apparently welsh D,s
a judge is any good they will recognize this but not many judges do, i thing the older judges do normally and think that the nps judges do, as they seem to be more experienced
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Post by 6bgzk5u on Jul 8, 2007 16:38:33 GMT
that works both ways, I have seen 14.1 cobs with large heads, remember the head is only 9% of the pony.
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