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Post by notloggedin on Jul 3, 2007 9:17:54 GMT
The various societies have (quite correctly) acted this season on the issue of overweight show animals. Perhaps it is now time that some of the very obviously overheight ones are sorted out!
One of the whp classes at the Royal had such a variety of heights that looking at the line up of ponies waiting for the results to be called someone asked me if this was a mixed height class! At least in the flat classes a much bigger pony can often be penalised for type etc, and being overheight is not neccessarily an advantage, but in workers there is an advantage as the jumps are smaller for the overheight ponies!
I know you can make an objection but lets be honest, this would cause so much agro between people and is not nice for the children involved.
I would be interested to hear how judges feel about this issue and how they deal with obviously overheight animals in any showing class.
I will not name any animals and don't want a nasty thread. I feel this is an important issue to the showing world (who, as I said, have acted on the accusations of overweight animals) and glad to get this off my chest! Thanks.
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Post by pho3nix on Jul 3, 2007 14:19:13 GMT
Olympia have the right idea, you very very very rarely see people who knowingly have over height ponies bother with their qualifiers.
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Post by PB on Jul 3, 2007 15:17:32 GMT
Thats because when you qualify for Olympia you have to provide a JMB height certificate within 6 weeks of qualifying! I think more shows should do measuring. At the NF breed show ponies going in the 13.2 & under classes must be measured but they don't measure the big ones that could be overheight! Same thing applies in small hunter classes - most of those are HUGE!
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Post by notloggedin on Jul 3, 2007 15:41:39 GMT
I would imagine that all the ponies in BSPS HoYs qualifiers already have current JMB height certificates! It was particularly interesting at the Royal with the walkway between the 2 all weather arenas and the ponies in the flat ring lined up with their backs towards the fence, and the whp's lined in a similar fashion when waiting for the results. The variety of heights was incredible - especially in the workers. Of course I know that the wither and rear end height dont neccessarily co-relate...
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Post by clobo121082 on Jul 3, 2007 15:44:38 GMT
Without sounding thick here what are the rules for m&ms. They dont have to have a current jmb do they? unless they qualify for hoys in the m&m whp. Shouldn't they hold a current jmb like the plaited ponies?
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Post by Chardonnay on Jul 3, 2007 16:19:02 GMT
Without a doubt there are many ponies competing who are over height. We have had bang up to height b's and c's who looked small in their classes, especially the c's. The question is how much importance should be put on height when the most important thing should be type. In my experience I have found that when ponies become too large for their breed they tend to lose their typeyness anyway. It is important that we ask our judges to study breed standards. That way the height of ponies will hopefully not become an issue and our native ponies will remain true to their original purpose.
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Post by To big on Jul 3, 2007 19:45:43 GMT
I dont think that the height limit should have been taken off the Ds. Over 14.2 it is no longer a pony it,s a flaming horse
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Post by Measured in on Jul 3, 2007 20:18:03 GMT
To Big - couldn't agree more re Welsh D's - a pony is 14.2 or 148cm - no ifs not buts.
The D's already have an advantage over some of our other natives as they tend to be scopier & pingier without having what can be a huge height advantage.
I was placed last in an NPS qualifier below a huge Welsh D that towered above my 14.2 & was so untypey, gave a truly dreadful go round & ind show including refusing to canter - thankfully it was a gelding so there's no chance of it breeding.
I think all ponies that enter classes where there are breed society max height limits should be measured & sorry but those ponies that measure over should go in an appendix in their stud book.
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Post by Disagree on Jul 3, 2007 20:21:29 GMT
I dont think that the height limit should have been taken off the Ds. Over 14.2 it is no longer a pony it,s a flaming horse I dont necessarily agree with this statement. Ok, some cobs that are 15h + can appear horsey and lack type, I quite like a 15h cob. I have seen many cobs under 15h that lack type its unbelievable. A good 15h cob can still be short in the cannons, have pony head/small ears etc and be deep bodied, and have ample bone without being course and be extreemly typey. I dont think the height determines type as such, its the features of the pony IMO that make up the type. You can have a smaller c, that has a rather D looking head, be long in the cannons, and generaly just look like a small D then resembling a pony 'OF COB TYPE'. I think issues like this are very much down to ones own personal preference in what they like or dislike in a cob, IMO height is just one small factor, as long as the cob conforms to the breed standards and ticks all thoes boxes then thats the most important thing. I like to look at a cob and and it shouts 'welsh' to me, there are so many cobs out there (many standing at the top of the line) that I think if that was turned out in a field with lots of other horses would I know if that was a welsh cob or not.......and if you have to ask that question then more often then not its not a ture representative of its breed.
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quince
Junior Member
Posts: 105
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Post by quince on Jul 3, 2007 20:55:47 GMT
The height limit was never' taken off the D's, there has never been an upper height limit on the cobs, the only one imposed was by the NPS when they had their 14.2 rule for Olympia Quals, but this was removed after much discussion with the WPCS as many cobs were barred from the competition when they were within the rules of their own native society, I'm sure the other native people would be delighted if a rule came out saying they were barred if they were over 12.2 , same difference.
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Post by frobster on Jul 3, 2007 20:57:18 GMT
Not m+ms, but, when I was at a championship show a couple of years ago, I was warming up my (full up) 15.2h, and this huge thing was warming up at the same time. I was going in the small hunters, and mum said "oh, that'll be in your class" and I told her that it would be no way in my class as it was at least 16.2hh!!! Anyway, low and behold, its in the 15hh SHP Well it was produced by a very well known producer! It was sold, and its never been heard of since...... So why can they get away with it??
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Post by My thoughts on Jul 3, 2007 20:59:10 GMT
I personally agree with the common view here that the height limit should not have been removed. At the very least, it should be max 15 hands.
I hate to see a huge cob that lacks type. I personally think that a full up 14-2 cob is a big animal. Mine rides far bigger than that although he is 14-2! He has a massive front so looks bigger!
My pet hate is when they get leggy!!
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Post by Disagree on Jul 3, 2007 21:38:59 GMT
I personally agree with the common view here that the height limit should not have been removed. At the very least, it should be max 15 hands. I hate to see a huge cob that lacks type. I personally think that a full up 14-2 cob is a big animal. Mine rides far bigger than that although he is 14-2! He has a massive front so looks bigger! My pet hate is when they get leggy!! You will find cobs look leggy when they lack depth, this can happen regardless of height. People who think that there was a height limit of 14.2 on a welsh cob, are mistaken, as stated above this height limit was put in by the NPS not the WPCS. Therefore if it conforms to breed standards why should height come into it? Go back and look at some of the old greats in welsh cob history, 'The Welsh Cob by Dr Wynne Davies' is a great book, go and have a look through this book and then say that some of the big cobs in there were not typey, when it was some of thoes cobs that have moulded our cobs today. People who complain about bigger cobs (15h) quite often have a small cob that is light of bone and at the end of the day not a HOYS or Olympia standard cob. And before people jump on me, I am in no way saying that smaller cobs are any less better then larger cobs, as I have already stated height is irrelevant as long as it is a good type.
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Post by poshpenny on Jul 3, 2007 21:39:40 GMT
Yes I agree. One of ours measures 14.2 in brand new shoes so I make it that his height is 14.1 1/2. He went in an NPS novice class and he was one of the smallest in there. So, either I am measuring him completely wrong, or there are a hell of a lot of overheight (sorry "full up") ones out there. Maybe I should start putting him in the 13.2 and under classes - he'd probably look right in those, or else pay the vet to officially measure him.
It does make me cross, but I am under the impression that if I was to make an official protest that I would have to pay for the measuring of the pony I am protesting. is this right, or have I got it completely wrong?
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Post by laus on Jul 4, 2007 15:49:20 GMT
Olympia have the right idea, you very very very rarely see people who knowingly have over height ponies bother with their qualifiers. Are you joking every single breed in the hoys m and m today at the royal had over height "ponies" in there it makes a joke of the breed types!
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Post by arghhhhhhhh on Jul 4, 2007 15:52:46 GMT
welsh ponies and cobs is that not they are called? not horses! the taller they are the less bone they are having they have lost that big strong shoulder and the fenomanel depth of the body! they are not ment to be horses they are a native it is rediculous that on my 14.2 typy cob im against a 16 hand horse!
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Post by my opinion on Jul 4, 2007 16:29:15 GMT
They are called welsh COBS not welsh ponies.
I agree there are many cobs that are lacking bone, depth and no heartroom at the moment. I believe these types are too pretty and airy fairy.
A cob was meant to be able to plough the fields, take the farmer round his land and be smart enough to take him to church on Sunday. They werent meant to be in a beauty contest.
They should be strong sturdy robust animals, with quality.
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Post by disagree on Jul 4, 2007 16:39:06 GMT
welsh ponies and cobs is that not they are called? not horses! the taller they are the less bone they are having they have lost that big strong shoulder and the fenomanel depth of the body! they are not ment to be horses they are a native it is rediculous that on my 14.2 typy cob im against a 16 hand horse! Where on earth do you get the concept that the taller cobs get the less bone they have? ??/ Some cobs look like horses and lack depth, and I agree that 16 is far to big. But there are some good big cobs around at the moment that stand around 15h. Felinmor distinction / triple crown, P the Judge, Carol Issacs 2 cobs that she has out this year, S. Forget me knot, to name a few...............dont lack bone to me or depth to me?
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Post by piper on Jul 4, 2007 17:01:45 GMT
Quite agree.I have seen some lovely 15 hh + cobs with beautiful pony heads and loads of bone and I have seen some light of bone ,bucket headed 14 handers. You pays your money etc.etc.After all people who want to ride Welshies come in all shapes and sizes too.
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Post by Interlude on Jul 4, 2007 17:16:35 GMT
Look it happens all over - not just m&m's but all the classes - look at the hacks and riding horses and the coloureds.
I had a lovely pony last year - sold him as he was 4 and going over height and I had an up and coming one in the large class. People who bought him (who knew he was going over height) sent him to a pro to be measured this year and guess what - measured in at 148 when I know he's almost 15.1! If I'd taken him to be measured you can guarantee he'd be measured out.
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Post by nli on Jul 4, 2007 17:51:55 GMT
Something to think about - if Olympia brought back the 14.2 rule would the studs change their ways - eg stop breeding welsh cobs/hunters??? think - when did we start seeing bigger welsh - !!!!
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Post by Measured in on Jul 4, 2007 17:54:39 GMT
So we should have a seperate class for the 'cobs' then - we do heritage workers & I do think it grossly unfair we're competing against horses that are upto a whole hand larger - fair enough if I had a 13.3 but he's just under 148cm as he should be.
Yes historically there were large D's but we're now seeing better nutrition etc so they seem to be getting bigger & bigger - do we then say ok the rest of the natives can get bigger to try to compete on an even keel with them??
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Post by Disagree on Jul 4, 2007 20:03:30 GMT
Something to think about - if Olympia brought back the 14.2 rule would the studs change their ways - eg stop breeding welsh cobs/hunters??? think - when did we start seeing bigger welsh - !!!! Why the hell should breeders of cobs change anything when the WPCS.........Who governs the Welsh cob......NOT THE NPS, have not imposed an upper height limit...... What would other breed societies do if the NPS decided to impose other restrictions that nothing at all to do with them. What buisness does the NPS have in deciding that one particular breed should have an upper height limit when the breed society has never imposed one. I wish people would stop talking rubbish. I would love to see all the Olympia standard 14.1 cobs that you all seem to have..........I have seen very few in the show ring. In actual fact I think Floreat Angie who actualy got Best of breed at Olympia, ridden by Carol Issac was slated ( unfarily) byy a lot of people for being too small? I actualy thought of a few more cobs.........that are over 14.2..........or should these cobs be classed as 'horses' as they dont seem to fall in a particular height bracket: P. Welsh Flyer......winner POW Cup Fronarth Welsh Model..... Llanarth British Lion, L.Prince of Wales Should I go on................ Sorry for the rant but some people do talk rubbish.
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Post by Entitled on Jul 4, 2007 21:17:27 GMT
My boy is HOYS etc standard but about 14-2 and a smidgen!
It's all very well for you to tell us that we dont know what we're talking about but a lot of it is about a matter of opinion.
i hear what someone on here has said about jumping againsdt big cobs but i happen to be a believer that cobs and connies should be split anyway due to natural ability.
And before someone jumps on me , I know the odd D is an excellent jumper. But in the main, when was the last time you saw lots of D's doing BSJA etc compared to the connies!
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Post by welsh jumpers on Jul 4, 2007 21:39:14 GMT
Sorry to disagree entitled but there are plenty of welsh cobs that do very well showjumping and i tend to think they are renowed for their jumping ability. Just off the top of my head... Machno Carwyn European pony sj champ Machno stud have exported several similarly bred to european showjumping homes Sakama Chesney sec C - 138 cm hoys s/j champ the Burnmoor cobs - all brill jumpers hoys whp etc when i was younger Hydewood welsh ds had 2 or 3 that were JA / JC - Hydewood Black Prince etc The Maesmynach cobs are all jumpers - ok some of them are biiig But i bet welsh cobs outnumber connies in aff SJ anyday!
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Post by Measured in on Jul 4, 2007 22:21:05 GMT
And I had a pure Welsh D mare on loan who was 14.1 who jumped over 5' for fun & I wonder why her owner took her back off me??
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Post by bellabella on Jul 5, 2007 12:12:38 GMT
Opinion on what is correct will vary as enormously as our own personal preferences. One just has to view the line up of the many differing types and size of Welsh ponies and Cobs on view in any given line up, none less at the finals at HOYS. We can rule make and regulate till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, the £££££ rules and where there is £££££ to be made, the traditional breed boundaries and ideals will be discarded by the modernisers, fashion followers and wannabe success junkies among us.
It's the chicken and the egg senario? What came first, the tall, less typey ponies and cobs, being produced by the breeder because that just happened to be the size and type of pony they personally wanted to breed. Or, have some studs been driven by demand from the ranks of show riders/owners and producers to alter the stamp, type and height of what they breed?
When one consider who potentially has the greatest influence over who and what the show rider wants to own and ride, we have the Chicken and egg senario again. Is it the producers or the judges?
Hypothetically, lets say if an influential judge possessed a certain amount of authority and credibility amongst his/her peers and contemporaries; and that perhaps they have a ponchant for a certain type of pony, which may not be what the true Traditional breeder/fan would consider correct or desirable, but said undesirable type and size of pony/cob is rewarded in the showring with the highest accolades. Some fellow judges may well follow that particular persons opinion out of esteem, respect or a lack of their own knowledge of the breed and/or simply follow the recent form book. Just like any other success driven industry, popular opinion will alter. Newcomers and profiteers will view that type of animal as the desirable type to own, the profitable and marketable type to breed and sell, the proven stamp to win, and will copy and follow the apparent successful market leaders to go after the big £££££££ and the big results.
Thankfully we all have free will when we decide what to purchase and who to buy from. We can do our homework and seek out the studs that consistently produce true to type traditional Welsh ponies and Cobs. I trust my eye and I have considerable faith in my own personal judgement of type. We all have our own ideal and what drives us towards a certain animal. Sometimes it is simply the depth of our pockets, our desire to win at all costs, or we simply fall in love with a particular pony. But at the end of the day, I place my trust and buy my ponies from those traditional breeders who consider it their personal duty to preserve the heritage of the true to type Welsh Ponies and Cobs, regardless of market influence and rule changes.
Do my ponies win? Depends on the judge!
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Post by big on Jul 5, 2007 12:51:57 GMT
welsh ponies and cobs is that not they are called? not horses! the taller they are the less bone they are having they have lost that big strong shoulder and the fenomanel depth of the body! they are not ment to be horses they are a native it is rediculous that on my 14.2 typy cob im against a 16 hand horse! Where on earth do you get the concept that the taller cobs get the less bone they have? ??/ Some cobs look like horses and lack depth, and I agree that 16 is far to big. But there are some good big cobs around at the moment that stand around 15h. Felinmor distinction / triple crown, P the Judge, Carol Issacs 2 cobs that she has out this year, S. Forget me knot, to name a few...............dont lack bone to me or depth to me? i think you miss read what i ment sorry! i think the height limit should be about 15hands! forget me not is a horse not a cob!
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Post by put money down on Jul 5, 2007 15:06:42 GMT
PLEASE NOTE THAT THE ABOVE RULES/GUIDELINES DO NOT OVER-RULE ANY RULES OR GUIDELINES ALREADY IN PLACE WITH SHOW SOCIETIES EXCEPT AT SHOWS SOLELY AFFILIATED TO THE WELSH PONY AND COB SOCIETY - just got this off WP&CS website so why don't the other societies do this then and place the upper limit in that would then stop these horses being in the pony classes, cause how do they get on in these two examples from P(UK) affiliation's
GLYN GREENWOOD M&M IN-HAND CHAMPIONSHIP Open to Mountain and Moorland ponies of all ages, registered with their respective Pure Breed Societies of Connemara, Dartmoor, Dales, Exmoor, Fells, Highlands, New Forest, Shetland, Welsh Sections A, B, C and D. Stallions, colts, fillies, mares or geldings.
KINGSFORD M&M RIDDEN PONY OF THE YEAR CHAMPIONSHIP Open to Mountain & Moorland ponies registered with their respective Pure Breed Societies of Connemara, Dales, Dartmoor, Exmoor, Fells, Highlands, New Forest, Shetland, Welsh A, B C and D. Stallion, mare or gelding, 4 years old and over. Rider any age. (Please see Rule 7, page 5 of the 2007 Rule Book.
Each show MUST have two classes: ¨ Mixed M&M Small Breeds – Dartmoor, Exmoor, Shetland, Welsh A & B. ¨ Mixed M&M Large Breeds – Connemara, Dales, Fells, Highland, New Forest, Welsh C & D.
they both clearly state ponies and not horses so start putting the money where the mouth is and put in the complaints cause at the end of the day if you can say that a D or any of the other breeds in these M&M classes is over 14.2 they are then no longer eligible for at least these two classes.
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Post by Disagree on Jul 5, 2007 15:20:01 GMT
So you are saying that any pony over 14.2, be it a welsh or connie etc then they should not be allowed to compete in these classes?
What tosh!
As I have already said above why do you think either Puk or NPS has any right to enforece a height restriction when the actualy Breed societies do not do this?
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