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Post by Guestless on Jul 11, 2007 19:59:34 GMT
Boy, there are some strong feelings on here now! I take it that none of you wear a top hat in evening performances then?
I understand the implications of falling off without a hat, but I would have thought the risks during an evening performance when horses and ponies are often more highly strung are much higher than many other occasions and yet most of us stick to the etiquette of the occasion and have less than adequate headgear on then.
Are those of you who feel so strongly saying that you NEVER get on a horse without wearing a hat that fits you? And I assume you buy a new one after any unfortunate incidents which result in you falling off? As I've already said, I rarely ride without a hat, but I do now and again jump on a pony going back to the field and I am sure I'm not the only one who does so.
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woof
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Post by woof on Jul 11, 2007 20:14:57 GMT
I can honestly say i do not ride without a hat ever and my children have never followed "etiquette" and worn a top hat in an eve perf. I have made the mistake once of riding in my child's hat which even though it fits would be classed as a little tight if I tried it on in a shop with a hat fitter, I learnt my lesson as i did fall off a dartie and whacked my head hard, got whiplash badly, won't do that again and don't want to think what might have happened without hat, all my children were there when it happened, thank god I was lucky enough to get up and walk away!!
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Post by thats life on Jul 11, 2007 20:16:39 GMT
I agree with both sides to this, but life is a knife edge.
My husbands godfather died falling off a stool in the kitchen when he hit is head, having come through the war in the bubble of a Lancaster boomer, where you are very exposed.
i do believe what will be ,will be,
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Post by Hats On on Jul 11, 2007 20:55:33 GMT
I also feel very strongly about riding without hats. Today on my way home, with my eight year old son sitting next to me, we passed a man riding without a hat on a very lively horse through the village. He wasn't fully in control of his horse, and I was so angry that he was putting me, a life long horse addict, and my three children in the position that if he had fallen off, we would have witnessed a possible serious accident because he was too inconsiderate to wear a hat. If he wanted to ride on his own property without a hat, thats fine by me, but I think it should definately be law to ride a horse on the public highway wearing a hard hat. That goes for bikes as well. I ride my horse on a busy high street and always wear a reflective tabbard - I know I am giving other road users more of a chance to see me and my horse and to slow down (hopefully!) in more time. I know when I am driving if I see a reflective item of clothing, I immediately slow down before really taking in the person wearing it - it definately works. Perhaps that should be compulsory too.
Perhaps we should have a vote on here as to what people feel - might be interesting. I also think that the wearing of top hats should be banned for evening performances - especially for children. Why do we need to wear them? Times have changed and we have moved on in terms of safety with most things in our lives - why stick with tradition when it is putting us and our children at risk. A show hat with harness, navy jacket and stock is surely dressing up enough without compromising on safety. Would most people drive without a seat belt now? I don't think so.
I vote for wearing hard hats on roads.
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cath
Newbie
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Post by cath on Jul 11, 2007 21:11:09 GMT
I absolutely agree that you have a duty to your friends and family, how selfish!!! Surely if you can afford to buy a top class dressage pony then you can afford to buy a nice comfy hat? Why not wear one? I totally agree with highlander, Dont wear a hat, Dont fasten your seat belt, all these are your own choice, but how selfish !! what about the children, parents and family that you leave behind, who have to pick up the peices, please all of you, remember the people you leave behind, sometimes I used to forget my seat belt, but I only have to remember my daughter without her mum, and i fasten it straight away. thankyou..
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Post by Guestless on Jul 11, 2007 21:11:20 GMT
Just deleted a rude post - if you can't post your opinion in a constructive, non-threatening manner, then don't post at all!
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Post by mara on Jul 11, 2007 21:14:52 GMT
Never had the chance to wear a tophat - I do have one though & would wear it given the opportunity It's all about assessing the risk - even in an evening performance, with hyped up horses you are safer than riding out on the roads - regardless of whether you wear a hat or not. I don't agree with small children wearing top hats at all but then I also don't like seeing the amount of makeup some of the girls wear. At a show you have immediate medical attention available - on the roads you could lie for ages un-noticed depending on where you live, how busy the road is etc. I had a friend killed when she was hit by a car - she was wearing an approved skull hat at the time but sadly the impact split it open along with her head & she died at the scene - the moron who hit her was doing the legal (60) speed limit but didn't know the roads so wasn't aware of the blind summit out of the village. She was treated at the scene by an off duty doctor who witnessed the accident but they could do nothing to save her. I do replace my hats - after turning somersault & not even realising I'd been kicked on the head I took my silk off to wash it & saw a huge scuff mark on the surface of my skull hat - I also smashed it up with a hammer to make sure noone else tried to use it - that took some doing by the way but I gather after an impact it's the padding (which is actually what protects you) that gets compressed & damaged. So yes I do have strong feelings about it - yes I have ridden the 250 yards up the track to one of our fields but I feel very insecure doing it so very rarely do so, I certainly don't do any more than this without a hat on. I also think the BSJA etc should put a stop to the way the showjumpers wear their hats - Ellen Whitaker in particular drives me mad with her loose chin strap & she's constantly pushing the hat back - it's meant to fit snugly & the chin strap's meant to be snug, not swinging about under the chin.
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Post by converted on Jul 11, 2007 21:30:25 GMT
Can I say that I used to ride without a hat my mum and other people on the yard would say wheres your hat, my response was alway 'Im fine' I know my pony, which I did, I could trust her with my life, and I thought I was invincible. I never used to wear a hat because: 1) I thought it made me look cool...... sad I know 2) I have quite long thick hair, and couldnt be bothered to wash and dry and staighten my hair everyday, or I was going out in the evening and I didnt want to flatten my hair! .....sad again I know. 3) I couldnt be bothered to wear a hat!!! I read all the articles and heard lots of discussions about not wearing a hat.....and I was never bothered......IT WONT HAPPEN TO ME....... I was very lucky and had not fallen off in years, and that in some ways gives you a false sense of security. Well, I was riding a new horse, which we had had for a couple of weeks, and for some reason, still to this day I dont know why bu I put my HAT ON, and thank god I did, something spooked my horse and he ran forward and turned blindly, well I fell out the side door and smacked my head into the very new post and rain fence!!!!!!! OUCH....well what I could remember. The reality check came when I was in hospital and the doctors where testing my reflexes etc and explaining about brain damage etc etc when I thought ' how lucky have I been' what if I wasnt wearing my hat?? I admit I was very stupid and it wasnt until something happened to me that I got a very close but sharp reality check. I have not sat on a horse without my hat since!!!! Its not cool and it certainly does not make you any better a rider because you dont wear your hat!
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Post by lincolstables on Jul 11, 2007 21:40:57 GMT
Im really surprised that it hasnt been made law that you must wear a riding hat on the public highways. Motorcyclists have to wear them and a horse can go nearly as fast!!! Set a good example to younger riders...wear your hats...PLEASE.
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Post by Loo nli on Jul 12, 2007 0:06:08 GMT
I think you should have to wear a hat when on the road but what you do anywhere else it at your own risk. I bet loads of us have ridden in from the field without one. My brother died from a head injury when we were kids & he had a hat on, at the same time a chap come in the hospital with a bad head injury from falling off the bed whilst having an afternoon session with the wife, so if your numbers up you will be got one way or another.
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Post by rubbish on Jul 12, 2007 7:53:12 GMT
Can someone who is against wearing a riding hat give me 1 good reason not too, there have been lots of reasons why we should wear them but no one has given a valid reason as to why we shouldnt, the only reason given is freedom of choice well im sorry but its pathetic we are supposed to be grown ups how on earth do you expect our children to grow up to be sensible adults if they are not taught how to behave and what is right and wrong plain fact is it is VERY dangerous to ride any horse at any time without a riding hat. I am sick of people giving incidents of head injuries that have been from non horsey accidents to justify not wearing one are you mad our heads are so easily damaged that if small simple falls cause brain damage imagine what falling of a horse CAN do.
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Post by Lexy P on Jul 12, 2007 8:07:20 GMT
So should we ban anyone jumping jumps (especially XC jumps), horse racing, oh and while we are at it - lets ban people from riding a motorobike or diriving a car. Oh yes, and smoking and drinking and anything else that might possibly end up with people in hospital needing treatment.
I am sure everyone is "guilty" of at least one or more of these common activities that also carry risk or requiring NHS funds.
I am not saying I condone riding without a hat, and definitely on the road. I have ridden in top hat in evening performance and also jumped on pony bareback to ride up from field (only on pony I know v well and trusted). But would never ride without hat on road myself.
That said I agree with the freedom of choice argument. The reason given of "my children might witness a road accident" - well I am afraid there are some things that you just cant ensure to protect your children from. What about all the pedestrians ? Shall we make them wear hats and body protectors as well ?!?
Of course everyone can come up with stories of someone that fell of a bike or a horse and was injured or even worse died. And this is of course very sad, and I agree with making sure your children use correct protection. However when adults we all have responsibility for our own safety, and choose what level of risks we take.
So if she chooses to wear no hat, then that is up to her.
Lexy.
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Post by girly on Jul 12, 2007 8:37:59 GMT
In America and Australia people who ride all day working wear hats that protect them from the sun becouse that is the greater danger to them. While I do believe that wearing a correctly fitting had hat is the safest thing to do riding here I lso believe that adults have the right to make their own minds up. I don't think we need more laws but maybe more education. If they made it compulsery to wear a hat while riding where will it stop, wearing a hat while grooming etc.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 12, 2007 8:59:09 GMT
plain fact is it is VERY dangerous to ride any horse at any time without a riding hat. I don't think anyone is against people wearing hats, but more they are in favour of people being able to make up their own minds. I'm assuming you are one of those who wouldn't wear a top hat in an evening performance, and no doubt you wouldn't go to see any of the stunt riders either. Oh yes, and of course the Queen is obviously very foolish too - strange she has managed to get to the age of 80 without any mishaps though! I would never advise someone to ride without a hat; in fact I would do the opposite, but I do believe people should be able to assess the risk themselves and make up their own mind. Smoking kills - FACT and yet people are able to make up their own minds about that! I'm sure there is much more of the government's money taken up from smoking-related illness than people who have fallen off and hurt themselves as a result of not wearing a hat.
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Post by piper on Jul 12, 2007 10:18:50 GMT
Absolutely agree guestless,couldn't have put it better myself.
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Post by rubbish on Jul 12, 2007 10:33:50 GMT
You are right there guestless i would never ride or let my children ride without hats years ago i would have let my daughter ride in an evening performance but not any more yes life is full of dangers but the people who choose to do them have a responsibility to protect their safety as best they can and finally the reason i feel so strongly about this is my son nearly died of a brain hemorrhage last year due to a simple fall of his bike whilst playing he was only saved due to the skill of the surgeon who operated on him my son was 12 years old and as he lay in intensive care fighting for his life me and my husband were blaming ourselves because he had not been wearing a helmet he was not on a road just playing out the back we never thought he needed a helmet and out of the other 3 children in ICU he was the only 1 that was not left with brain damage he came home and those other children will never recover. The doctors and nurses shook their heads when they found out he had no helmet on as it is not an uncommon injury they see it all the time but it nearly ruined all our lives so forgive me if i seem to be on my high horse i have good reason too. Finally adults can just as easily have the same injury as my son you do not need to be on the road, cantering up the field when the ground is hard will do the trick no problem, or a playful buck as you come out the side door a metal shoe smashing into your skull the list is endless old family ponies the quiet ones are less likely put you off but it can still happen. Go to the hospital wards and see what head injuries do to people and just maybee you will think again. I hope you do not learn the hard way like me.
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Post by skint on Jul 12, 2007 10:42:02 GMT
I had a really nasty accident a few years ago, and it happened so simply, I was hacking a 4 year old out with a friend we were nearly home and coming up the quite steep tarmac road, the youngster just slipped on the tarmac and ended up on the deck. I hit the floor straight on my head. Was in physio for 12 months afterwards and the hospital said if I had not been wearing a hat I probably wouldnt be here. The hat disintigrated once it was off my head. All I am saying you can ride the quietist of animals and still have an accident.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 12, 2007 10:58:37 GMT
finally the reason i feel so strongly about this is my son nearly died of a brain hemorrhage last year due to a simple fall of his bike What a terrible accident, but it shows you learned the hard way and (whether we like it or not) it often takes a horrible personal experience before we learn to take our safety more importantly. Regardless of what anyone says on here, people will still make their own choices and that's just part of life. We often have a "it won't happen to me" attitude to life and sometimes that is a healthy attitude and sometimes it's not. I think we have to accept to live and let live. It is common sense that our own life experiences will influence the decisions we make in life, but those same life experiences won't always influence others and we have to accept that.
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Post by viking on Jul 12, 2007 13:58:37 GMT
Couldn't agree more guestless. Well put.
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Post by mara on Jul 12, 2007 14:29:50 GMT
My main concern is that the person mentioned is one that countless younger riders would look up to & admire & possibly be influenced by her.
Whether I wear a hat or not in the overall scheme of things doesn't matter - I'm not famous or ever likely to be but I do feel that someone who is easily recognised should take a more responsible attitude.
Even I will confess to wearing my chin strap over the peak of my hat as a child cos that's what all the showjumpers did at the time.
I also remember Nick Skelton quoting in a magazine that he would retire from show jumping if he ever had to wear a chin strap - bet he's glad he was correctly protected when he had his accident.
Riding is a risk sport, life is a risk but we can do things to minimise the risks such as wearing appropriate protection.
I don't wear a hat when handling my horses unless I know they're young or problematic & then I'll also put on my body protector.
Strangely the only time a certain someone messes about when I'm riding is when I wear my body protector!
I do always lunge with hat & gloves on though - rope burn is incredibly painful.
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Post by sad on Jul 12, 2007 16:48:13 GMT
She's not going to hurt anybody but herself. So wouldn't she hurt those left behind if she had a fatal accident or was left in a vegitative state for the rest of her life? So she isn't going to hurt her family and friends if she did die? And leave them thinking 'if only' for the rest of THEIR lives? Tell me that that's not hurting someone else I don't know
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racehorseman turned welsh
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Post by racehorseman turned welsh on Jul 13, 2007 15:41:18 GMT
I really am amazed that a horsey site like this can even begin to think that it is right to ride without a hat/or say it is ok due to personal choice. I won't have a choice about having to look after this person when they have a serious accident and end up in hospital..with side effects to name just one...of aggression. I won't have a choice about weather or not l want to look after someone that is constantly lashing out at me. Her/his children won't have a choice about weather their mummy or daddy will be able to play with them due to their incapacity. Their parents won't have a choice about being heartbroken and what they see as losing their child. The driver of the car that spooks the horse to cause that accident won't have a choice about how it will leave them feeling. Yes I can go on and on. Surely you can see that we are role models for our children, they learn from what they see and hear and when your children ask you is that ok to ride without a hat on..Your response is "that is their right darling". Then the following day without you knowing they go out and ride without a hat on. That is their right also (especially if old enough to make a decision) Beat you would find that hard to accept, and above all it leads to double standards if you expect them to wear their riding hat..Come whilst people have rights about what they generally do l don't believe they have rights to compromise safety. Infact the human rights act does say that no one has the right to compromise safety I also think it is well and good deleting rude offence material but also sarcasim is deemed rude and offence to some people. Perhaps demelza you felt slightly threatened when you had to resort to this aire of sarcasim My point exactly if I want to risk my life it is up to ME,I pay taxes,Oh Boy do I pay taxes and actually I do have private medical insurance,not that riding without a hat is the reason I do(mainly to do with the state of the NHS) I didn't realise it was in such a state because they are all soooooo busy looking after the head injury cases who were riding without a hat !!Get a grip folks I'm not saying we should all go riding without hats just that the small minority who do should be allowed to make that choice.As it happens I do wear a hat when riding...my choice.
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Post by piper on Jul 13, 2007 17:53:28 GMT
Well racehorseman turned welsh,I'm sorry if you were offended by my attempt to lighten the mood.I assume you are also upset by smokers and people who don't wear seat belts and fat people whos food is about to be taxed to force them to be slim.It's been a good debate but I stand by my view that if you take away people's right to make their own decisions right or wrong we will find ourselves living in a country that's hard to recognise as the free country we grew up in.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 13, 2007 18:27:39 GMT
I really am amazed that a horsey site like this can even begin to think that it is right to ride without a hat/or say it is ok due to personal choice. Can I just point out that anything I have posted on here is my OWN personal view and not the view of this site! We moderators do actually think for ourselves and are entitled to offer our opinions as much as any other members on here. At the end of the day, riding without a hat is not against the law, so whether you like it or not, it IS down to personal choice. My personal choice is that I don't smoke and yet a large percentage of my tax money is used up treating people from smoking-related illnesses. It sucks but it's life!
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Racehorseman turned welsh
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Post by Racehorseman turned welsh on Jul 13, 2007 18:29:55 GMT
Demelza, firstly let me say that it has been a good debate, and that you haven't offended me at all, it would take a lot more than a few of the mark comments to offend me !!!. Your comparasions with smokers and fat people are just so way out and off the mark although l can appreciate that the seat belt comparision is more near to the topic being debated
I am pleased that you feel so strongly about an issue that is constantly highlighted in the horsey magazines and can maintain your standpoint on the issue. I wouldn't want to change that as everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, should a nation wide vote be cast on such an issue I do believe that you would be in the minority, if a vote was cast of users using this site l guess from responses l have seen on here that probably wouldn't be the case. However, l also feel strongly to the contray of your thoughts. It is worth repeating again given that you keep using the words "ones human right", that the Human rights act states that no one has the right to compromise one's own safety or life and/or the life and safety of others.
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Racehorseman turned welsh
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Post by Racehorseman turned welsh on Jul 13, 2007 18:37:39 GMT
Guestless
I appreciate it is your own personel view, and l am pleased to hear that you can actually think for yourself..what is the point in moderating a site such as this if you can't do that.
Can l ask then when you removed a comment made by one of your other users you removed it if it is supposed to be a free society..Why remove what someone else has written because only you deemed it as offensive. Hey where the free society in that ?? I note you haven't removed the sarcasim that l deemed as offence.
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Racehorseman turned welsh
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Post by Racehorseman turned welsh on Jul 13, 2007 18:40:07 GMT
Guestless the above is just a point l really don't expect you to answer that
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Post by Guestless on Jul 13, 2007 21:57:14 GMT
Can l ask then when you removed a comment made by one of your other users you removed it if it is supposed to be a free society..Why remove what someone else has written because only you deemed it as offensive. I don't mind answering! The thread I removed was a one liner written in text speak and was calling those who insisted that riders should wear hats some rather nasty names! We are usually happy for everyone to have their say on here, but there is a way to say it and a way not to say it!
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Post by piper on Jul 14, 2007 8:16:06 GMT
The point about the smokers and fat people was that they still chose to do it and be it ,even though all the evidence says it is bad for them.So government steps in and legislates for their own good.Not Good for society as a whole , we have to have a balance and be able to see the bad side of things as well as the good so that we can make a choice.I truly believe that we should all wear hats when riding on the road but if despite all the evidence some one still chooses not too,then that is fine too.Lets not castigate and condemn them for being irresponsible and above all let's not criminalise them for their own free will.
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racehorseman turned welsh
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Post by racehorseman turned welsh on Jul 14, 2007 9:28:11 GMT
I accept what both you Demelza and Guestless have to say, but yes l will condemn those that put themselves in danger. They are very poor example of life role models .
Ok to take this one step further lets look at it from another point of view
I am a psychiatric nurse (l am in real life) and have been doing so for many many years..all my work life.
The casulty gets admitted to my unit, the individual who has had a riding accident..which could have been prevented but through bloody mindedness/choice they refused to wear a riding hat.
This individual is very fit and very strong and due to the seriousness of the head injury, they are also very very aggressive. It is a fact of life most people with head injuries are somewhat aggressive. I as the caring nurse try my best to work with this individual but am constantly subjected to abuse and threats of violence, until one day this individual strikes out at me and causes me to be off work for the rest of my working career. Not only do l lose the job l love but also my pension which l have been working for 30+ years for will greatly diminish.
Do you think it is right that l as the person just doing my job should be subjected to this behaviour due to the mindless thoughtlessness of someone not wearing a riding had?? Bear in mind l have no choice who l treat.
I would have been forced to give up my job and lost the good pension that l hoped was in store for me. Plus being subjected to many hours of painful therapy. You can say that this is far fetched but it could happen.
You still harp on about own free will, but l don't have my own free will when forced to deal with someone who blantantly choose not to protect themselves, and l end up the loser.
GUESTLESS
I appreciate you answering the question and could have foretold your answer before you wrote it down. Only an idiot wouldn't have known that, but my point is if we are talking about peoples free will as mentioned in Demelza's text, and l add this is someone you are supporting, then surely the person who wrote that text that you deleted has the right to as much freedom of speech as any one else. Freedom of speech is prominently identified in the human rights act. I use this act again because "own free will" seems to be the buzz words bantered around in this thread. You can't have it both ways to to suit yourself and then when it doesn't fit with your beliefs stop the interlude.
I am not trying to be difficult just mere observation, from whats written down.
No matter how much you or anyone else tell me it is not law to make people wear riding hats and free will of people to do as one pleases, l will still totally disagree with you and l certainly know l am not alone.
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