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Post by Admin on Jul 14, 2007 10:02:42 GMT
I am not getting into the discussion of the rights and wrongs of wearing a hard hat whilst riding. The reason for my post is as a mod you have to decide what you can leave on the site and what you cannot leave. Decisions are not always clear cut on what to do with a particular post. We have our site rules which we use as a guideline but they could never cover everything posted. If we leave certain posts that individuals don’t agree with we get grief, also if we don’t remove some posts we also get grief.
Post removal is a judgment call on the part of that particular mod and will always be that. The only time it is not a judgment call is when we receive a request asking for its removal.
I’m afraid everyone will just have to accept that.
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racehorseman turned welsh
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Post by racehorseman turned welsh on Jul 14, 2007 10:35:03 GMT
Adinistrator
I certainly wouldn't want to get into an arguement about the right and wrongs of wearing a riding hat when out riding.
It is very evident that there are a lot of differing opinions regarding this and we as adults have to accept these opinions..after all it is just an opinion
However, perhaps in future one needs to be more aware about using terms like "free will" so losely.
As l have said one can't use the arguement about freedom of choice and then manipulate it to suit themselves, which has clearly been done above. i.e removing text which didn't suit, therefore removing someones right to freedom of speech.
Of course l am not that stupid to realise what is acceptable and what isn't, and can fully appreciate your reasons for removing it.
I merely am arguing the point that free will is not demonstrated and one should not use that to back up there arguement if they are only prepared to get on the train that's going one way..there way.
I know it sounds padantic, and l realise that we will have to agree to differ on this issue, but please those of you that it concerns don't put arguments forward using things like free will as the main weapon of defense when clearly this is not being demonstrated, as evidenced by the recently deleted text. That to me is not demonstrating free will or freedom of speech.
Also l would like to know how people think they would cope if in the nursing scenario above. Put yourself in that nurses postion, l wonder if you will still feel the same about free will when someone through not thinking through he consequences has just taken everything away from you, and left you totally incapacitated..
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Post by piper on Jul 14, 2007 11:31:18 GMT
I completely agree racehorseman etc you should not have to be subjected to agression in your chosen place of work but you could equally have to deal with agression from someone who had been hit on the head during a burglary at their home or someone who received an injury whilst wearing a helmet so who makes the judgement call there.It's the same as doctors refusing to treat smokers because they have bought it on themselves.It's all a judgement call and part of human nature to do that.You have chosen your profession whilst being fully aware of the downside and pitfalls of said profession admirable as it may be. I can't get onto the free speech thing as this forum has rules which we all sign up to when we register and I presume it was because some rule was broken that the text was deleted.Obvoiusly in an ideal world everyone should be allowed to express an opinion.
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Post by armada on Jul 14, 2007 12:30:56 GMT
As a reformed 'baseball cap whilst riding' person, I honestly cant see anything clever or mature in riding without a proper hat. i decided myself one day, that it really was'nt a wise thing to do, and it infuriates me the attitude of certain riders, one day last week being a case in point, I was driving along a lane with a speed limit of sixty, which is religiously adhered to by most of the drivers I encounter along there, coming towards me was a woman on a large horse, no hat, reins flapping and being held in one hand. I slowed to about 20mph, she did not acknowlege me, make any attempt to pick up her reins and then as I passed her, yawned right in my face, I said to my passenger, ' its little wonder cars dont bother to slow down for horses with the likes of her on the road, is she so arrogant to think her horse is so totally bombproof in any situation that it warrants her to behave like that?' I personally did'nt want her head or anyone elses coming through my windscreen unprotected because the horse spooked and shot her out of the side door. I myself have no desire to become a casualty in a wheel chair or hospital bed because of my own stupidity, yes, it makes my head sweat and my hair go flat, but rather that than a scrambled brain, I can fix my hair, but not my brain. Personal choice is one thing, but when it has the capacity to ruin the lives of the people involved and those around them, its time to lose the vanity and accept, you are actually only human and no less likely to have and accident than anybody else and have a responsibility to those around you to protect yourself adequately.
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racehorseman turned welsh
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Post by racehorseman turned welsh on Jul 14, 2007 12:45:00 GMT
I think what your saying demelza is right except that your forgetting one important fact, it is not self induced when someone is hit over the head in a burglary or receives a head injury whilst wearing a crash helmet. I am sure you can see where l am coming from. As for dealing with these people in my given profession, yes you are quite right to point out the pitfalls of such work but no one should be subjected to agression/bullying/abuse weather that individual is ill or not. You will no doubt have heard the millions of claims being put through each year where staff are suing patients for simple that. Also when l worked in substance misuse any form of agression/abuse etc was not tolerated and the individual would be discharged from the books to be given time to think about the situation and off course would be welcomed back into treatment but only after a period of three months had elapsed. Most hospitals now like GP surgeries have a zero tolerance to this As for the smoker debate l really do think that is a totally diferant scenario..although l do take your point on this issue. This can lead to another healthy..or unhealthy !! debate As for the free speech and freedom to do as one pleases issue, you really can't expect me to let you get away with it that easily, hiding behind the administrators bushel . (i am trying now to make this a friendly debate !!, as l know we have both made our points and stances very clear.) You have just said everyone has a right to do as they choose and have freedom of speech. Whilst in the next breath you are saying that the site has rules which you have had to sign up to don't allow for this...ie the removed text of someone that was using their right to the power of speech. ..So do l take it you disagree with the site rules ?? If you agree with them surely that is being hypocritical given you have demonstrated a very solid and valued view point as to why people should be allowed to do as they please, and be expressive.
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Post by piper on Jul 14, 2007 14:06:24 GMT
I think people do have the right to make their own informed choices in this life.I cant do anything about the administrators decision to remove a post.If you are saying that i shouldn't have signed up to this forum because they have a form of censorship,then maybe you are right,presumably why you are only visiting as a guest? I think that fundamentally we agree in as much as we both feel that people should wear hats as it's undoubtedly safer we only disagree as to whether it should be compulsory.
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RACEHORSEMAN TURNED WELSHIE
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Post by RACEHORSEMAN TURNED WELSHIE on Jul 14, 2007 15:55:14 GMT
Well l must admit l do know that it isn't you who has control on whats on the boards and what has to be removed, l promise that is that now, l think we have come a a conclusion which you have summed up well.
I will in the near future sign up as a member but obviously being new to this site it is useful to see what people are like. I really respect your honesty and appreciate the way you maintained your stance on things. of course there are going to be lots of things we disagree with..so l will enjoy getting into a debate again with you, at least you don't back down !!!!!!!I don't have to agree with you as you don't me but at least we are adult enought o respect one anothers views.
Great debating with you..many thanks
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Post by piper on Jul 14, 2007 16:13:28 GMT
Feelings mutual Sir,I'm sure we will cross swords again on this or another forum.Wouldn't do if we all thought the same ,what a boring world it would be.
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Post by Not daft on Jul 14, 2007 17:36:25 GMT
I'm all for riding hats being made compulsary in law. For those who choose not to wear one, or who say it's 'free will', I hope if any of your friends, family or aquaintances happen to sustain a head injury through not wearing a hat, that you remember your opinions. I hope if any of your friends, family members or aquaintances sustain long term injury, that you can still so calmly say 'oh well it was their choice', and remember not to say how terrible it is, or if only they were wearing a hat. I hope those who think riding without a hat is fine remember not to look for sympathy on the internet forums should an accident occur.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 14, 2007 18:28:26 GMT
Adinistrator I know it sounds padantic, and l realise that we will have to agree to differ on this issue, but please those of you that it concerns don't put arguments forward using things like free will as the main weapon of defense when clearly this is not being demonstrated, as evidenced by the recently deleted text. That to me is not demonstrating free will or freedom of speech. I think you're getting a bit antsy about nothing now. If you want to be so literal, then there is no such thing as free speech as we are all subject to the laws of the land, such as not being racist, overtly discriminatory, etc. The post removed contained foul language which is one of the few things not tolerated on this site. Anyone is permitted to express their view on most things as long as they are civil. Can I suggest if you wish to debate how we moderate this site, then you do so using a new thread as another rule on here is that we try to keep threads on topic!
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racehorseman turned welsh
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Post by racehorseman turned welsh on Jul 14, 2007 21:30:31 GMT
Firstly l don't need you to tell me about Human Rights Law, l work with it everyday.
You obviously find it difficult to accept when people aren't agreeing with you, and as for the person getting "antsy" (as you call it) l suggest you look in your own back yard, before you start accusing others. I am entitled to an opinion as much as the next person, and if you think within a debate everyone is going to agree with you then unfortunately that won't be so , well not from my cornor. I was merely pointing out issues others had raised on here regarding Free will (again words others have used) like l said if the train isn't going your way Gutless oops sorry guestless then you won't get on it...You think you are obviously so open to to freedom of speech and i quote again "free will" but you really don't understand what your talking about.
At least your colleague Demelza admits that here belief is so strong and that she agrees she maybe shouldn't have signed up to the forum given the censorship issues.
As for keeping to topic l agree... just take a look back over this topic..Smoking..fat people..Whats that to do with wearing a riding hat, and l have never mentioned this once except for now !!!
I have no intentions of discussing the moderators on this site, you not so important that l feel l need to be discussing you but what is good for the goose is good for the gander, You cannot confess to do one thing then do something else. I obviously accept you have rules but don't start accusing everyone else of breaking them because they can match you with your argument.
At least Demelza and myself have been able to reach a compromise, that being we agree to disagree.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 14, 2007 22:32:53 GMT
You think you are obviously so open to to freedom of speech and i quote again "free will" but you really don't understand what your talking about. Maybe you think that, but I'm a community worker so I encourage people to use freedom of speech on a daily basis! BUT (and it is a big but) I encourage them to do it in a polite, non-offensive manner. I will not apologise for removing a post that was offensive. I volunteer as a moderator on here and part of that involves making decisions on whether a post is likely to be offensive - and more often than not, we wait until someone asks for a post to be removed (which did actually happen in the instance on this thread btw). I am always happy to agree to disagree - nothing I love more than healthy debate. I am however struggling to work out why you are so keen to keep on mentioning a post that was removed when it was offensive (and offensive towards you since it was directed at those who insist others should wear hats). If you use human rights law every day, then I should not have to say any more on the matter as you should understand more than most why removing offensive material is important....unless of course you think referring to people such as yourself as belonging to the second world war acceptable! I did not say you had broken any rules, btw, I merely asked that the discussion (if you wish to continue it) should be done on another thread. I would reiterate that now and politely ask you to refrain from commenting any further on this particular thread, since it is supposed to be about people wearing riding hats and not whether or not it is acceptable for a moderator to remove a post! The points on smoking and fat people were compared to the particular debate so I don't actually consider them to be off topic.
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Post by rubbish on Jul 15, 2007 5:31:24 GMT
Sorry guestless i agree with the above post you do not like anyone to question you and woe betied anyone that argues withyou you ALWAYS want the last word i have noticed this before yes good on you for standing your corner if you truely belive in something but the simple fact is you are not always right and at the end of the day you just can not accept that.
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Post by viking on Jul 15, 2007 7:37:01 GMT
Well there you go you see, because I happen to agree with guestless, and I think the adult thing to do is to agree to differ, don't you?
What I would like to ask racehorseman turned Welsh, and would like an honest answer to, is just how many times you have been assulted in your capacity as nurse by someone with head injury that was caused by an equine riding acident, and who wasn't wearing a hat at the time of their injury.
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Racehorseman turned welsh
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Post by Racehorseman turned welsh on Jul 15, 2007 8:26:38 GMT
Rubbish l would totally agree with you. Viking has now ask me a specific question, which l am prepared to answer. Firstly, it must be said l used the situation hyperthetically. In my present job honest answer never. However in an earlier job l had two people who demonstrated aggressive behaviour due to riding accident whereby the individual was riding without a hat on. One of those was a child of 9yrs old who as a consequence suffered permanant brain damage. Extremely traumatic if you have never seen it.
A friend of mine has been working in an A+E Department in Sussex and a high percentage of head and back injuries are due to riding accident. I am sorry l cannot identify how many were riding without a hat.
Just to pick you up on your post Guestless, and l am not going to keep harping on but you remove offence material from this post, note that you didn't remove what l said was offence. Again your just demonstrating one standard for one and one for another..I hope your clients, patients and service users get a better deal from you and are treated on equal terms.
As for the smoker, fat person issue again ..If that isn't way off topic from wearing a riding hat l don't know what is..Again demonstrating double standards.
Like l said to Demelza we will have to agree to differ.
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Post by viking on Jul 15, 2007 10:50:38 GMT
Thank you Racehorseman turned Welsh.
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Post by lincolstables on Jul 15, 2007 12:24:33 GMT
I love a good debate. Riding without a riding hat is stupid, selfish, dangerous and IMO only done by pig headed idiots who shouldnt be allowed on a horse. They think they look "cool" without a hat, well believe me the only thing they look is a prize FOOL. Suppose that will take my karma to -2
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rtk
Junior Member
Posts: 107
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Post by rtk on Jul 15, 2007 17:34:57 GMT
I love a good debate. Riding without a riding hat is stupid, selfish, dangerous and IMO only done by pig headed idiots who shouldnt be allowed on a horse. They think they look "cool" without a hat, well believe me the only thing they look is a prize FOOL. Suppose that will take my karma to -2 I agree, I've put it back up again
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Post by lincolstables on Jul 15, 2007 19:09:09 GMT
;)someone likes me..thanks rtk
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Post by mara on Jul 15, 2007 23:02:37 GMT
I've lost track of who's said what on here but I thought the whole point of the smoking & fat references was that the person posting pays for those people via her NI contributions, the same way as her care would be paid for by everyone else's contributions so not entirely off topic, just looking at it from another perspective. I agree with whoever said the person injured through a burglary or in a motorcycle accident didn't inflict their injuries on themselves - I think this is the whole point of this thread - if you choose to ride without a hat which most of us seem to agree is a somewhat daft idea then you have chosen to put yourself at greater risk than necessary as you know there are items of clothing available that will help protect you. Interestingly, I have a young German lady with staying with me at the moment & we were discussing this amongst other things & she was saying that since she started riding over 10 years ago everyone has been made to wear hats at the riding schools. They haven't made it law for youngsters to wear cycling helmets or riding hats. The grossest story she told me was of a friend out on a hack (they live near the Black Forest) & the girl had long hair tied back which got caught in a branch & scalped her - now if that's not a good reason for wearing a hat I don't know what is.
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racehorseman turned welsh
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Post by racehorseman turned welsh on Jul 16, 2007 8:13:29 GMT
Think you have a made a very good point there Mara...I guess when l spoke about rights and things and about my right to treat or not treat a self injured individual due their aggressive behaviour, it must be said that l would have never rejected the individual but l would reject the behaviour.
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Milliesmum
H G Addict
COCKERP00S RULE!!!
Posts: 23,901
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 19, 2007 11:13:30 GMT
I totally agree with freedom of choice, but please, if you are a well known rider, team member or whatever, remember that children aspire to be where you are now. One quote already said that they didn't wear a chinstrap because the top showjumpers at the time didn't.
Children are easily influenced and even if their parents insist they wear a hat, some will take it off when their parents back is turned, just because the top rider they admire doesn't see fit to wear one.
At the end of the day, it's your choice, but please consider all the implications.
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Post by Stacey on Jul 19, 2007 12:19:25 GMT
I know the debate is about riding horses without a hat, but freak accidents do happen on the ground, and one did at a friend's yard a few months back which left the woman in a coma for 6 weeks and it was unknown if she'd ever regain her memory/was left brain damaged at that stage. She was just leading her horse down to his stable and something spooked him and she has now been affected for the rest of her life
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Milliesmum
H G Addict
COCKERP00S RULE!!!
Posts: 23,901
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 19, 2007 12:28:21 GMT
Exactly. My ponies were on livery at a riding school, and now if the kids want to take their favourite pony out to the field at the end of the day, they have to wear a hat with the chinstrap done up, or they don't go. Simple.
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Post by choice 1 on Jul 19, 2007 15:25:28 GMT
i agree to its her choice,i for one sometimes ride without a hat,when schoolong i dont wear a hat.i.ve had my ponies 10yr and i 100% trust them.
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Post by Racehorseman on Jul 19, 2007 16:09:07 GMT
Choice1
I am just astounded that you can post such a comment. Whilst l agree that it is your choice to do as you please, but to actually post on a thread like you have done, a thread which numerous youngsters will read promoting the fact that you ride your ponies without a hat on "whilst schooling" because you have had them for 10yrs and that you trust them 100%. I would have thought you could have recoginised the naivity of that statement and how silly that comment really is.
If you want to put yourself MORE at risk through not wearing a riding hat that is fine but don't promote it so that other youngsters follow suit. There is nothing big in what you are doing and surely to self protect, and maintain your own safety has to be paramount. If you don't value your life then as l have said that is your choice.
l have said before on this thread we are suppose to be role models for or younger generation. I really don't see much role modelling taking place.
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Post by ceriwills12 on Jul 19, 2007 17:13:35 GMT
I agree racehorseman turned welsh. I just feel a hat should always be worn, you cant turn back time when an accident has happened. Also no matter how much you trust you horse/pony at the end of the day even the kindest most trusted ride can shy or do something unpredictable, its just nature. A person can jump in fright sometimes so the same is true for horses/ponies. At the end of the day nothing is ever 100% sure, especially a horses nature.
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Post by choice 1 on Jul 19, 2007 20:15:33 GMT
i am just saying i agree that is the riders cjoice as to weather they wear a hat or not,i am not the only one who has said they ride with a hat.i am more than old enough to look after myself and if anything was to happen id only have myself to blame.
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flj
Junior Member
Posts: 176
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Post by flj on Jul 19, 2007 20:56:27 GMT
I quiet often ride bareback without a hat, although i have never done this near my young jockey who even wears a helmet on the ground just incase. And certiantly do not encourage younger riders to ride without one.
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Post by lincolstables on Jul 19, 2007 22:51:02 GMT
flj...isnt that a case of DO AS I SAY not DO AS I DO??? Sheer stupidity at its best
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