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Post by shonat on Jul 16, 2007 10:42:30 GMT
At the GYS, I was surprised when the Fell Judge placed his hands not only on the neck and wither of a yearling Fell, but also run his and along the flanks, over the rump, down the hocks, examined both front limbs and canon bones, fetlocks, feather and lifted the foot to examine the hoof and sole. Is this normal practice/acceptable under rules? I am first to admit I dont read the rule books from front cover to back, but I have always been aware though common knowledge that if a judge cant see a fault, they cant go looking for one. Any comments please!
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Post by Lexy P on Jul 16, 2007 10:50:55 GMT
Interesting question. I was also vaguely aware of such an "ethic" even if not a rule (never seen it rulebook myself, so dont know on this one).
However also had judges touch ponies in IH classes. Usually much less than you are describing though !! Such as feeling crest to check how fat pony is, or running hand down leg to feel splint.
Running hands down rump and hocks sounds rather foolish to me to a strange pony you dont know !!
Lexy.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 16, 2007 10:54:56 GMT
I think there different rules for different societies. I think (but could be wrong) BSPS says judges should not touch ponies for H&S reasons, but NPS and PUK have it as a recommendation (again could be wrong).
Individual breed societies will have their own rules. It's certainly common to see judges at Fell shows giving each pony a good run over with their hands and (as a Fell owner) I don't have a problem with it as I think all that hair could easily be hiding a blemish or two. Only time I object to a foot being lifted (although I've never verbalised it!) is when I am riding the said pony (and that's happened more than once - not at Fell shows I should add!)
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Stonefold ponies NLI
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Post by Stonefold ponies NLI on Jul 16, 2007 10:59:02 GMT
I am not aware of any rules which state ponies can not be touched.(however I may later stand corrected) Im my own opinion, if a judge feels the need to move a ponies tail to see the hocks and lift feet to see the true shape and size of foot etc, especially if an animal is shod and examine the limbs for any reason, they should be allowed. I think a close inspection is better than not getting their full attention.
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Post by ickelford on Jul 16, 2007 12:23:41 GMT
Good question!
I do agree with judges touching the ponies as some blemishes, particulary on hairy hairy natives, are very easy to cover up. There are a lot of tactics for hiding/minimising blemishes on show and show hunter ponies too, so I wouldn't agree with "if you can't see a blemish don't go looking for one". In my experience this isn't what the judge is trying to do anyway, its more about seeing the quality of the ponies crest, canon bones, limbs, hocks and general condition etc. This is particulary common at breed shows, and in my very short experience of native breed shows (have only just entered the native world!) then most judges would do this in the in-hand classes.
However what I do not agree with is touching the youngstock quite so extensively as shonat described in the original post. From talking to friends in the native world it seems this is a little frowned upon for good reason - youngsters are generally a lot less experienced and less trusting of people so I would think a judge who tries to run his/her hands down the back legs, through the tail etc could potentially be putting themselves at risk. I know there are exceptions and I have seen some very relaxed and tolerant youngsters who probably wouldn't batter an eyelid at being touched, but I think in general, youngsters, particulary yearlings, are likely to be a lot more wary and judges should be sympathetic to this in the ring - and I know a lot of them are.
I also disagree with judges picking feet up in the ridden sections - surely its hard enough for a horse to hold a rider on 4 legs, let alone 3! If a judge wants to look that extensively at the conformation then I think they should strip the class separately after the individual shows have taken place as per usual.
As a final note, I do feel that judges should ask if it is ok for them to feel the horse they are judging, but at the same time it is the owner/handler's responsibility to educate the horse to be able to accept such handling and warn the judge before he/she starts to examine the horse if there are likely to be any problems. You may lose a few marks for it but its better than a lawsuit after your horse kicks the judge in the face!
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Post by herbert on Jul 16, 2007 12:39:23 GMT
Speaking as a judge, I do not feel it is necessary to touch a horse/pony.
Unless you touch every animal in exactly the same way, it is not fair to single out and draw attention to a possible fault on an exhibit.
If you cannot see a fault, there is almost certainly not one there...
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Stonefold ponies NLi
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Post by Stonefold ponies NLi on Jul 16, 2007 12:58:29 GMT
Speaking as a judge, I do not feel it is necessary to touch a horse/pony. Unless you touch every animal in exactly the same way, it is not fair to single out and draw attention to a possible fault on an exhibit. If you cannot see a fault, there is almost certainly not one there... I would have to disagree on that last comment piper. I think it depends on what you are judging, native ponies can hide a multitude of sins under a fair bit of hair, like the fells mentioned in the first post, and when it gets to a show as big as the great yorkshire, the ponies are usually of a high quality and a small fault could make all of the difference? Also as said in the first post the judge touched every animal in the class in the same way. maybe this was as to not draw attention to particular pony's faults? I would also have to agree that a ridden pony's feet should not be picked up, on the grounds of H&S.
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Post by eyesight on Jul 16, 2007 14:13:00 GMT
The rules are different for different societies. I think it is mainly Dales and Fell judges who feel the need to touch the ponies. Hunter judges have to ask permission to touch them. Having said that, a number of shows now ask judges not to touch the ponies for health and safety reasons when they are appointed.
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sp
Junior Member
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Post by sp on Jul 16, 2007 14:44:44 GMT
At Kent County the judge picked up our 3yr old hack's leg! Don't know why because she had nothing there!
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Racehorseman turned Welsh
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Post by Racehorseman turned Welsh on Jul 16, 2007 16:09:16 GMT
I was lead to believe for H&S reasons that judges were not allowed to touch a pony/horse, but like most cannot be certain of this or weather this just applies to certain breeds. I can however see why perhaps you may need to with the hairy animals ie Fells for all the reason already identified.. Whenever l have judged l have never touched the ponies being judged.
However, as a competitor now, it really does not matter too much to me if they do, for me it tends to be what you see is what you get. I for example would never show mine if l could obviously see a fault, l don't see the point.
As for lifting horses legs up whilst jockey is still on board l would say that was a no no.
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Post by Touchy on Jul 16, 2007 16:46:27 GMT
Surely if Judges insist on touching ponies they should have disposable gloves which they change before touching each pony,that must be enough to stop them doing it.
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Post by silly on Jul 16, 2007 17:26:05 GMT
I remember a few years ago in a HOYS qualifier the conformation judge virtually gave mine a vetting feeling down both back legs picking up feet pulling the tail one way then the other i was so embarresed my mare had small windgalls so i was horrified that she was drawing so much attention to them she did not do this to any other pony and the other competitors were whispering to each other i thought i was going to cry but then i ended up 3rd out of over 30 and when i looked at my marks my mare had top conformation of the class.
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sp
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Post by sp on Jul 16, 2007 17:27:08 GMT
As for lifting horses legs up whilst jockey is still on board l would say that was a no no. It was inhand but surely if he did that to a younger more inexperienced horse and it had spooked at something he could of been sent flying!
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racehorseman turned welsh
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Post by racehorseman turned welsh on Jul 16, 2007 17:55:23 GMT
Sp
I was actually referring to Guestless post, when she said this has happened to her more than once, but none the less, l still agree with what you are saying. No matter how much education you give these youngsters they do change on show days. I have a three year old filly, who is a big pony but last year, in her first season showing was so laid back, this year at her first show she was like a time bomb waiting to explode,and thats not because she was fed up to the eyeballs as l tend to virtually show mine from the field, they only come in the night before for a small feed bath etc. I am hoping she will get better as the season progresses, started showing late this year. Mind you she is great fun as she really shows herself off and moves like a train.
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fell
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Post by fell on Jul 16, 2007 18:17:38 GMT
I was in the fell class at GYS and the judge did touch the pony, which I have no objection to and would say its more common than not in fell classes to have the judge touch the pony. Running hands down the shoulder, withers and checking feather quality as well as picking a hoof up are quite normal.
The judge at this years stallion and colt show felt the hocks of almost every pony including yearlings, there were very few ponies it bothered. Its up to the judge if they want to take the risk with young ponies.
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Post by try on Jul 16, 2007 20:39:57 GMT
I stewarded at an agricultural show at the weekend and the judge i stewarded for went down the line of foals putting his hand in the mouth of every one of them. Apart from the huge risk of spreading disease it also upset some of the foals.(and some of the handlers!) i was shocked at this as i always believed you werent to touch the ponies when you were judging.
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Post by erm no on Jul 16, 2007 20:47:16 GMT
I think moving a tail or running hands down a leg is ok but lifting feet etc is not IMO. At PUK 2 years ago I saw a judge in a lead rein class lifting legs with little jockeys on board The last judge who tried to lift my native front leg lost her rather stupidly large floral and feather decorated hat
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Post by Bonkers on Jul 16, 2007 21:00:34 GMT
IF YOU CAN'T SEE IT, IT'S NOT THERE!!
How do you know that the horse/pony you are touching will not take your head off !!
and
Erm no....................... That amused me !!
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Post by Guestless on Jul 16, 2007 21:14:39 GMT
I think moving a tail or running hands down a leg is ok but lifting feet etc is not IMO. I don't mind a judge lifting my ponies feet as long as I'm not on board. In fact I think with some breeds (such as the Fells) looking at their feet can be important as good, round, open feet are very important and you can't always tell how good the feet are without lifting them - particularly when showing on grass.
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Post by Scotland NLI on Jul 16, 2007 22:25:33 GMT
It wasn't just the fell judge at GY, that was touchy feely! The Cuddy judge was feeling down legs and lifting feet
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Post by Im my Op on Jul 17, 2007 6:21:59 GMT
In this day and age of lible sueing i would not touch any pony other than maybe a stroke on neck upon presenting rosettes.
In veteran Classes if i wish to see teeth i ask owner/handler to open mouth a little.
I for one would not want to risk passing on diseases after touch noses / mouths.
I do not feel it nessecary to touch legs, again you can spread bacteria !!!
I wouldnt want a judge to touch my pony without asking first, my pony wouldnt mind but i might, not everyones are as clean and hygenic as your own, and can cross contaminate, at shows i never nose to nose or graze the land or use communal troughs.
The exception tothe touching rule is in a best turned out where i may feel plaits, coat and possibly tail AFTER asking the owner, and i carry baby wipes in my pocket if doing this class.
I see it as for instance in a school, i wouldnt want a teacher to open my childs mouth then do the next one without washing their hands or even touch skin and do the same, we all know what germs are flying about out there, i would rather not touch at all.
Hoof picking up is occasionally done in the older group of young handler by the handler while i hold the pony they pick the hoof to show competance.
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Post by jmo on Jul 17, 2007 8:20:46 GMT
I think that no judges should be allowed to touch any ponies. For
1) they simply do not need to why cant they just look. A good judge should be able to see faults etc.
2)Health and Safety- it is so so so dangerous for a judge to touch ponies and horses especially yearlings.
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Post by sony on Jul 17, 2007 8:26:47 GMT
The confirmation judge at north of england on saturday in the SHP class, felt the neck, chest, run his hand down one of the back legs and moved tail to one side. If anything was to have happened that day, he would not have been able to get out of the way as quite an elderly gentleman and had to site on a stool in the middle of the ring to watch the initial go round.
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Post by herbert on Jul 17, 2007 11:20:38 GMT
As I said before it is not necessary to touch any horse/pony.
Any conformation fault can be seen, if you look properly and know what you are looking for.
Ok, in some cases hair may cover a small blemish, but if you cant see it and it doesn't affect the way the pony goes it is unlikely to affect its place in the line up.
It can be very dangerous to touch exhibits in the ring, whether youngstock or ridden.
I agree it is not hygenic, who knows what you could be passing on.
On a lighter note, disposable gloves would be a good idea, if only to protect my hands from all the make up used on some exhibits - as it can be very difficult to wash off!!!.... And that is just from giving a pat whilst presenting rossettes!!!!
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Post by think again on Jul 17, 2007 13:25:45 GMT
Last week the judge kissed my pony on the nose when presenting the rosettes. I was very pleased that she like the pony so much - but slightly worried that the pony might have thrown its head up and knocked her in the face. With so many people sueing people for all sorts, if your pony in jures the judge when they touch it, whose fault would it be - apart from everything else about passing on infection and so on.
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Post by ickelford on Jul 17, 2007 14:00:51 GMT
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Post by but on Jul 17, 2007 17:38:49 GMT
If a judge tried to sue because they got hurt swhen touching a pony in the ring i would of thought that the chances are they would not get anything as it would mist likely be against the rules.
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Post by nikki on Jul 17, 2007 18:57:16 GMT
I have the opposite problem - my pony touches the judge! If I am not one step ahead of her, she will nuzzle them, inspect their pockets and positively licks her lips at the sight of flowers on hats or jackets. Fortunately as she is a native she never wears make up so I haven't had any dry cleaning bills ....yet! And if the judge places a hand on her she thinks they are playing the scratchy-scratchy game and tries to reciprocate.
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rtk
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Post by rtk on Jul 17, 2007 19:12:43 GMT
At the larger shows no-one has ever touched our horses. Riding Club is usually a different matter. On Sunday the family pony judge went around picking up all their feet. Then the veteran judge opened all of their mouths to inspect their teeth and then went all around (including right behind) feeling their muscles . Luckily mine are good but I was just waiting for an accident. I agree about the disposable gloves, what about spreading infections, never mind the make up problem.
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Post by viking on Jul 18, 2007 11:24:54 GMT
Just wondering.... do you feel legs when you go to buy, or check for dodgy mouths, shallow feet etc?
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