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Post by nli on Jul 19, 2007 14:34:22 GMT
Love it!!!!
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Post by abe on Jul 19, 2007 15:49:33 GMT
Don't have H&H yet-what does it say?
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Post by nli on Jul 20, 2007 7:33:35 GMT
The letter is regarding the article in a previous issue "do horses cause divorces". Thought the letter was very amusing. Loved the bit about the £3.50 prize money...an it had only cost over£50 in entries and diesel to win this. Do read it!
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Post by colour of money on Jul 20, 2007 8:02:33 GMT
It's the letter from the gypsy that enrages me - trying to justify drowning that horse at Appleby Fair. The whole thing sickened me, and it is outrageous that they will be allowed to continue this practice next year.
The RSPCA's attitude to the incident sums up everything wrong with that organisation - saying it wasn't their place to do anything and then drawing comparisons with horses which die at other events such as Grand National. Pathetic
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Post by politics on Jul 20, 2007 8:30:18 GMT
I used to do a lot of work for the rspca until I discovered they are just a political organization with millions stashed away.
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mat
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Post by mat on Jul 20, 2007 8:41:54 GMT
We had a case a couple of years ago where 60 + horses were being seriously neglected and we got the ILPH involved,they could only do so much and had to involve the RSPCA for the actual rescue operation and prosecution.They were appalling,one horse died while they were messing about and the prosecution was handled so badly that despite the best efforts of Derek Knottingbelt and others the woman concerned got a hefty fine but NO BAN can you believe it ?Yet the day the horses were removed there was a half page spread in the local paper of an RSPCA Officer ( complete with photos ) rescueing a pigeon from an office block !! Says it all really
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 20, 2007 8:42:20 GMT
Just as tragic for a horse to die at Aintree - the veneer of respectability and the millions of pounds involved in an event like the National doesn't make it any more acceptable.
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Post by what are you on on Jul 20, 2007 18:05:47 GMT
Just as tragic for a horse to die at Aintree - the veneer of respectability and the millions of pounds involved in an event like the National doesn't make it any more acceptable. I hardly think a horse dying doing the national can be justifed as being the same as horse being drowned by pikes by any stretch of the imagination. The horses that run the national do it for the love of it, anyone who knows a single thing about horses and racing can see that. They wouldn't be put in for the race if the people who know them best (i,e trainer, etc) didn't thnik they had the capability and will to do it. If an unfortunate accident does happen yes it is tragic but no way compares to the manner in which the horse at appleby was practically murdered!! IF it was human the silly twit who was with the animal would be locked up. Yet again it was just pikes doing one of their showing off routines at the expense of their animals and anyone else. IT disgusts me and my point is horses that die at aintree die doing something they love and enjoy, it is a pure ACCIDENT. The horse at appletree was plainly not enjoying it, or doing something he loved he was involved in part of a traveller game trying to prove they were big and capable when all they really are is scum. Rant over
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 20, 2007 18:56:17 GMT
Are you saying that an owner with a runner at Aintree doesn't show off even a little bit?
I was in no way excusing what happened at appleby, it was terrible, but horses die in the national most years and there isn't this outcry. Is is OK for a horse to die needlessly and in pain if he was happy and enjoying himself? An accident is just that, but if you consider the risks and then go ahead anyway, you should take some responsibility.
I agree that something should be done about the cruelty at appleby, but I now refuse to watch or gamble on the national because it never fails to upset me when those screens come out.
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Post by racehorseman on Jul 21, 2007 13:16:35 GMT
Milliesmum,
Oh how l can truely empathise with you on your feelings regarding the National, the heart wrenching moment when the screens come out knowing almost certainly that that poor horse is going to be shoot and taken off to the kennels. However l am afraid that
What are you on
obviously has a better understanding of racing than you obviously do. How on earth can you compare a malicious killing of a horse forced to enter a river without option as it slipped down the bank and then be physically made to have it's head held under water until it drowned. If the intention wasn't to drown it what on earth was their intention, as l don't think this is a very safe game to play..I am sure we agree on this !!..All l can say is that they weren't so big at the end and had to run away.
Can l ask Milliesmum do you/or have you ever hunted ??
If the answer is yes then you will know the excitment horses feel when they are "Running" You will also know that a lot of huntsman jump bigger fences out hunting bigger fences not only in height but spreads and ditches..
Of course it is appalling when any horse dies, at least the clerk of Aintree has been doing something about the fences at Aintree which has lead to and l quote
"Dr Webbon, previously veterinary expert for the Jockey Club, said deaths and injuries had been logged by vets since 2000, and were now kept on a national database. "The figure in 2005 was the lowest number of fatal injuries on the courses since we started recording in this way. We keep extremely accurate records. Whenever the RSPCA asks for the figures we show them immediately, because it is a welfare association that wants to make racing as safe as possible for its participants."
That is more than l can say the RSPCA have done at Appleby.
Please note l am note saying that l agree with the National or not. The old saying is you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. I think this also applies to racing...You can take a horse to the course but you can't make it run or jump. This is evidenced by many horses refusing to take part in races, show jumping ring or out eventing//team chasing.
Please don't compare a deliberate killing of a innocent horse with sport............
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 21, 2007 16:10:18 GMT
I have never claimed to be an expert on racing, I didn't think I needed to be an expert to have an opinion!
I have not hunted, however have ridden in large groups (30 plus) so I know how much horses love to gallop together.
I agree that racehorses would not run and jump if they did not want to. I also think that if an animal will run his heart out for you and give you every last ounce of energy he has, then we have to take the responsibility to decide when we think he has given enough, and not run him until he drops.
You probably are more qualified than me to talk about this, and I am glad that as you say work is being done towards making the grand national safer, this can only be a good thing.
The only other thing I would say is whether it was deliberate cruelty or a sporting accident I would rather that both situations be avoided if possible And as for the culprits at appleby leaving the scene instead of facing the music - that speaks volumes as to the type of people they were.
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Post by racehorseman on Jul 21, 2007 17:47:15 GMT
Milliesmum,
Sorry if l gave you the wrong impression but l didn't think l said you had to be an expert to have an opinion.. Anyway this is not about teasing out specfic words , and l think we are saying the same thing, except l would say that most of the horses that have been killed in the grand national and note it has only been one in the last four years (one too many of course) have met there fatality within the first mile and half of the race, but l do also see that horses will run their hearts out for the individual and the person on top needs to take responsibility for this a good jockey and a caring trainer would obviously do this. I know l certainly did when were pointing.
Yes totally agree with you on the Appleby situation..
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Post by be fair on Jul 22, 2007 11:24:00 GMT
sorry to interupt this arguement but milliesmum i would just like to say that maybe you are exagerating how many horse actually are killed in the national. Its only 1 maybe 2 a year. So i dont know why you disagree with it so much.
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mat
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Post by mat on Jul 22, 2007 13:02:21 GMT
Interesting points of view and a good debate developing. I have to say that sad as it is when a horse is killed at Aintree ,it dies doing it's job , a job that it has been highly trained to do .The horse at Appleby was a baby,barely trained to do anything and patently obviously not happy to be doing what it was doing. So I don't really think the arguements stack up,they are just too different. Accidents are just that and can and do happen at any time,out hunting,pony club,eventing,or mucking about in the field. At least at Aintree,regulations and welfare are paramount and no horse has to suffer for long. You just can't legislate for accidents and if you try you miss out on a lot of the fun of life,especially with horses.
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Post by lincolstables on Jul 22, 2007 13:17:16 GMT
IMO Appleby should be banned. I have been once...never again. Who in their right minds wants to watch so called macho men showing off with no care for the poor horses they are riding or drowning!!!! Its BARBARIC, walk round look at the state of these poor defenceless animals, especially the ones they hide!!! If you can walk away without crying...you have no feelings!!! As for the RSPCA dont get me started this money making, ignorant society should be prosecuted...they have caused more suffering to animals over the years than anybody else getting off my soapbox now
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Post by racehorseman on Jul 22, 2007 14:11:54 GMT
Like you Matt l think this could be a very interesting debate as long as it doesn't turn into a slanging match..Lin (Lincol) I know you feelings all too well regarding the RSPCA, but l have also got to agree with you on the Appleby saga.
I think Matt you have hit the point right on the head when you said, "it dies doing it's job , a job that it has been highly trained to do . The horse at Appleby was a baby,barely trained to do anything and patently obviously not happy to be doing what it was doing".
We mustn't forget to give the racehorse credit these animals are highly skilled professionals at what they do, they know their job inside out and are probably some of the best hunters you will ever have the privalege of seeing.
I had a fantastic opportunity of leading up a horse in the Grand National some years ago now, God did l pray, l prayed from fence to fence just hoping that he would come back safely, this horse was having the time of his life he jumped every fence with zest and gusto ears constantly pricked (l hastant to add l only watched the video after the race)..luckily enough he did return safely and with his jockey aboard finishing 6th. I tell you one thing Milliesmum l wasn't showing off not "even a little bit" and l quote you when you said ("Are you saying that an owner with a runner at Aintree doesn't show off even a little bit?") yes l am telling you l didn't show off. l was to busy worrying about weather l would see the fellow l was leading up again, to be showing off.
I think the main point of this conversation is that you cannot mix the two...... Mis-treatment and an uncaring attitude from people who have little idea about how to care for the horses welfare I.e as said before just look at Appleby, and the thing about sport where horses are finely tuned have generally the best of facilities and are masters at their own craft. I tell you l loved my racehorses each and everyone of them, and infact l only gave racing up as l started to have nightmares about the horses getting hurt/killed, this happened for several weeks just prior to each of them racing. I felt the risk was just too great to take and as a consequence gave up the racing game after 30+ years I only ever had on faller in all that time, and he came back to fight another day. Each one of the horses have since gone onto do other things successfully in their lives..
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 22, 2007 17:37:08 GMT
Racehorseman - you put a very good argument!
The fact that you gave up racing after 30 years because the risks were too great, tells me that you care very much about your animals. If only all owners of horses were as concerned with their horses welfare ( and I mean all horse owners, not just racehorses),the world would be a better place and we wouldn't be having this discussion!
We owe it to these beautiful animals to do everything we can to keep them well and happy and the difficulty is where we draw the line between taking too many risks and wrapping them up in cotton wool so they die of boredom.
I've learned a lot from what you and others have said, however you still won't find me sitting down to watch the national next year because I can't stand seeing a green tarpaulin as the horses go round for the 2nd time.
To 'Be Fair' - 1 or 2 horses each year is still too many for me, I'm not saying ban the national, all I'm saying is I personally can't enjoy watching it, it always upsets me.
Its like hunting - If I personally don't want to go hunting, I wouldn't stop other people having the right to go and enjoy it if it suits them and their horse.
Typing that bit has just made me question myself - because if I said Appleby should be banned would that be double standards?
Interested to hear what you've all got to say.
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Post by hanna on Jul 22, 2007 18:55:15 GMT
milliesmum, i think you should give up driving aswell if you dont like the green sheets coming up.
How many people loose their lives on the road each DAY! doing what they love, living. More people die than horses. If you dont like death stay at home and dont watch the news!
If you watched racing every day on the tv you would realise that horses die from racing quite often for various reasons, its just that the grand national is SO popular and people who never watch racing tune in to see this one race and then are horrified when a horse dies.
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Post by racehorseman on Jul 22, 2007 19:18:59 GMT
I respect you for what you have to say Milliesmum, and can appreciate that you don't like the National...hey your not alone in that..but my point was that it is hard to compare a sport such as horse racing let alone the Grand National to the dreadful incident that happened at Appleby.
I think when you say about owners caring you are exactly right, bligh l would be a very rich man now if l had a £1.00 for every time someone said to me "They are Welsh Mountain ponies they don't need this/that....etc etc etc". You obviously also have that emotional attachment to horses and l would guess animals in general...Hey join the gang.
Whilst again l appreciate your opinions Hanna but it is difficult to compare road accidents with Horses deaths from it partaking in a sport..However l guess you could compare that to the grand prix !!
As for horses dying quite often yes you are right . Here is some general research interesting l would say. This piece of research is taken from Australia Not able to find any research from britian
Results: There were 514 fatalities over the 15 year period; 316 in flat races and 198 in jump races. The risk of fatality was 0.44 per 1000 flat starts and 8.3 per 1000 jump starts (18.9 × greater). The risk of fatality on city tracks was 1.1 per 1000 starts whereas on country tracks it was 0.57 per 1000 starts. Of the 316 fatalities in flat races, 73.4% were due to limb injury, 2.5% to cranial or vertebral injury and 19.0% were sudden deaths. Of the 198 fatalities in jump races, 68.7% were due to limb injury, 16.2% to cranial or vertebral injury and 3.5% were sudden deaths. The risk of fatality in flat starts increased between 1989 and 2004 but the risk in jump starts remained unchanged over the 15 year period.
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 22, 2007 19:20:20 GMT
If I am in a car I wear my seatbelt and observe the speed limits. That won't stop some other idiot driving into me!
Accidents do happen but that doesn't mean we can't try to minimize the risks.
Of course, if you are involved with horses in any discipline you will have accidents. But I'm just saying take all the precautions you can to look after yourself and your horse, and then go out and enjoy! I did say its drawing the line between being sensible and over-protective that's difficult.
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Milliesmum
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Post by Milliesmum on Jul 22, 2007 19:26:28 GMT
Interesting that there were more fatalaties in flat races than jump races - that one surprised me. But the risk for jump starts was higher? These are interesting statistics as it knocks some preconceptions on the head.
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Post by hanna on Jul 22, 2007 19:27:57 GMT
Racehorseman, my post was miss leading!
I meant that more people die on the roads than horses do racing!
People who dont understanding racing take their opinion from watching one race ie the grand national, decide that this race is unacceptable because horses die and then decide never to watch it again in protest.
Not sure what you thought i meant, sorry not very good at getting my point across in words!
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Post by racehorseman on Jul 22, 2007 20:03:24 GMT
Yes totally agree with you illiesmum..Statistics are strange, however l think that could be very misleading as British racing there are more meetings and l would suggest that there would be more fatalities in the jumping game. Just out of co-incidence I remember going to the horse sales and bidding on a horse which l didn't get. Went to barbados on holiday and visited the Garrison Savannah racecourse only to see this horse running there, unfortunately it broke it's leg..(sorry don't know why l should mention that but l think it was because it was a flat race !!)
Don't worry hanna got it now it is probably me being a bit thick.
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sash
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Post by sash on Jul 23, 2007 17:48:33 GMT
and this thread has turned into yet another argument! brill letter of the week! xx
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