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Post by shpgirl on Oct 27, 2012 16:54:02 GMT
Good afternoon everyone Thank you for all your posts and it is interesting to read your different views. I would like to make a couple of comments. The Horse of the Year Show allocate the HOYS qualifying classes to whichever shows that they think are suitable and in the case of the pony classes the show can then affiliate to either the NPS,P(UK),BSPS and The Showing Register. Whichever society they affiliate to the members of all the other pony societies can enter without paying additional membership fees. You have to be a member of one of the above named societies to compete in a HOYS Q pony class but it does not matter which one. I hope that is clearly written I know it is a difficult thing as for so long all the plaited pony classes were BSPS and M and M NPS etc now it is open to all societies who are accredited by HOYS. The HOYS Q shows schedules wording for 2013 will reflect the addition of The Showing Register. I think our goals are best expressed by nici #23 earlier on this thread. best wishes Wendy For the M&M flat classes at HOYS it was previously the case that instead of being a member of one of the above mentioned societies, being a member of your pony's breed society also counted. Will this still be the case? Or does the above only apply to the plaited classes?
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Post by the showing register on Oct 27, 2012 17:01:28 GMT
Hello shpgirl
You are quite correct. I normally add that as well but I have now written close to 50 posts on this and the other thread under Society web sites and this time I left it out. I try to be absolutely accurate and the position with M and M is as follows.
To show a M and M pony in a HOYS Q class you must be a current member of the same society as the breed of pony or one of the 4 societies as in my previous post. If another person is going to ride the pony they must be a member of the same breed society as the pony or a member of NPS, P(UK), BSPS or The Showing Register. If you decide to show another pony of a different breed the same rules apply.
Wendy
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Post by silvester on Oct 27, 2012 17:11:50 GMT
Jeeez I'm still stunned by the negativity towards the showing register!!! Does it really matter what it's called so long as we all use the correct name - showING register!!!! It is a members society and therefore a 'register' whereas I understand the show register is a results service and therefore not a register, and the show ring a discussion forum so each is totally different and should be easy to differentiate between the 3!!!!
I would imagine most people ought to be pleased to have the opportunity to join a cheaper society. I think we've all read plenty of posts on here moaning about the cost of P(Uk) amongst others! Personally I don't really give two hoots if there affiliated to the showing council or if I have voting rights, who is on their comittee or board of directors as quite frankly it doesn't really matter!! I'm all out for saving a few pennies and think we should be encouraging new initiatives designed to help the competitor rather than money grabbing
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Post by the showing register on Oct 27, 2012 17:17:35 GMT
Evening Silvester
Thank you for the support! I had forgotten to reply to the person who asked about the Showing Council we have made enquiries but at the moment they do not have a system in place to accept new members but hope to have something up for next year when of course we will take advantage of it and become a member.
I must say it has been quite a rollercoaster ride !
Wendy
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Post by arrogorn on Oct 27, 2012 18:23:05 GMT
I'm really really confused now.
I previously read that you didnt have to be a memeber of the relevant society and that you could enter the Showing Register Hoys class and this was how it was going to be cheaper as you didnt have to join a society.
Can I point out that TSR is used all over the showing register website so you haven't ditched using TSR which is where the gripe has been.
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Post by sagalout on Oct 27, 2012 18:36:32 GMT
So, in effect, is it that ShowING Register has been added to HOYS accredited organisations for the pony classes (exc. Chaps) from which shows may choose thier Afflliiation - and exhibitors who are members of any of those listed are eligible to compete and qualify at any qualfier?
Excuse my ignorance but I have not shown an SHP for 25 years.
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Post by arrogorn on Oct 27, 2012 18:43:57 GMT
So, in effect, is it that ShowING Register has been added to HOYS accredited organisations for the pony classes (exc. Chaps) from which shows may choose thier Afflliiation - and exhibitors who are members of any of those listed are eligible to compete and qualify at any qualfier? Excuse my ignorance but I have not shown an SHP for 25 years.[/quot I understood from earlier post that you only had to pay £20 to the showing register for pony membership and rider member ship. If a different rider wanted to ride then that would cost £5 and there was no need to be aff to a society hence making it more affordable for the amateurs to show. This does now not appear to be the case, unless I'm clearly not reading something correctly
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Post by sagalout on Oct 27, 2012 18:49:49 GMT
I read it that the £20 fee does entitle you to enter any HOYS pony Q class? Whichever society the show has chosen for its affliation?
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Post by hollycane on Oct 27, 2012 19:30:41 GMT
"The Horse of the Year Show allocate the HOYS qualifying classes to whichever shows that they think are suitable and in the case of the pony classes the show can then affiliate to either the NPS,P(UK),BSPS and The Showing Register. Whichever society they affiliate to the members of all the other pony societies can enter without paying additional membership fees.
You have to be a member of one of the above named societies to compete in a HOYS Q pony class but it does not matter which one. I hope that is clearly written I know it is a difficult thing as for so long all the plaited pony classes were BSPS and M and M NPS etc now it is open to all societies who are accredited by HOYS.
The HOYS Q shows schedules wording for 2013 will reflect the addition of The Showing Register."
Absolutely clear as mud to me.... The quote above is verbatim. It says you HAVe to be a member of a recognised society to compete in a pony HOYS Q. Is it me? Does this mean my registered shetland (Member of Shetland Society) can compete in a HOYS Q for 12.2hh SP? Just because I am already a breed society member. So I DON@T need to join The Showing Register as I'm already a member of something..... Moreover BECAUSE I am a member of something already I have to pay the "full" price to qualify.....
Can of worms, dogs dinner etc. Please can you just be quiet until you have all of this stuff sorted out. All you are doing is confusing people and possibly cheesing off those of us who intend to keep up membership with the relevant societies. get all the rules. I don't intend to be rude but really, this dialogue is just compounding the confusion and losing any credibility for something that seems to be a genuine effort to help showing.
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paul
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by paul on Oct 27, 2012 21:25:27 GMT
I can't see where all the confusion is coming from, seems very clear cut to me.
For those wishing to enter HOYS M&M qualifying rounds, and for your qualification to be valid, the pony must be fully registered with the relevant breed society. The rider of the pony must be a member of any of the affiliated socities - be it the National Pony Society, Ponies UK, British Show Pony Society, The Showing Register or one of the Native Breed Socities. Where the rider is under 18, then the owner must be the member of the above.
For the plaited pony classes the pony must be registered to the National Pony Society, Ponies UK, British Show Pony Society or The Showing Register. Both the owner of the pony and the rider of the pony need to be members of one of the four socities above, NPS, PUK, BSPS or TSR.
Its my understanding that the horse classes do not fall into this conversation, those being Hunters, Hacks, Cobs, Riding Horses, Coloureds etc. These owners and Horses will still need to be members of their relevant society.
I think that it is quite easy to understand and follow
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Post by sagalout on Oct 27, 2012 22:16:30 GMT
sA lot of confusion came from the name and many readers assuming a connection with The Show Ring (TSR) and The Show Register.
HOYS Horse classes have already been mentioned by The Showing Register spokesperson, but 'not for 2013'
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Post by the showing register on Oct 28, 2012 6:29:46 GMT
Good Morning Thank you Paul you are exactly correct and I have reproduced you post below. The £20 membership package covers an adult owner,junior rider and 1 pony extra junior riders and extra animals are £5 each. £15 is an adult membership again animals £5 each. You still have to pay the relevant entry fees for whatever show you wish to attend. For amatuer riders it is a great deal as you have £20 of benefits. (see other posts) We do not cover any of the other Horse HOYS Q you have to be a member of the relevant association but we are opening the debate as the more riders that can afford to compete the better for showing. Wendy Paul wrote : ''For those wishing to enter HOYS M&M qualifying rounds, and for your qualification to be valid, the pony must be fully registered with the relevant breed society. The rider of the pony must be a member of any of the affiliated socities - be it the National Pony Society, Ponies UK, British Show Pony Society, The Showing Register or one of the Native Breed Socities. Where the rider is under 18, then the owner must be the member of the above. For the plaited pony classes the pony must be registered to the National Pony Society, Ponies UK, British Show Pony Society or The Showing Register. Both the owner of the pony and the rider of the pony need to be members of one of the four socities above, NPS, PUK, BSPS or TSR. Its my understanding that the horse classes do not fall into this conversation, those being Hunters, Hacks, Cobs, Riding Horses, Coloureds etc. These owners and Horses will still need to be members of their relevant society. I think that it is quite easy to understand and follow '' Read more: horsegossip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=144853&page=2#ixzz2AZX2ITKm
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Post by arrogorn on Oct 28, 2012 10:09:09 GMT
Wendy this is not what you said on 19th October!
I will Quote
'Hi again Several people are asking if they need to join another society / association as well as TSR if they want to enter HOYS pony qualifiers the answer is NO ! You can enter MM,plaited pony , Intermediates lead rein and first ridden etc just with TSR membership (£20) - Wendy
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Post by the showing register on Oct 28, 2012 10:15:31 GMT
Hi arrogorn
This is correct you can enter all HOYS pony Q just on a TSR membership but of course you still have to pay the show entry fees.
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Post by Guestless on Oct 28, 2012 10:20:43 GMT
For those wishing to enter HOYS M&M qualifying rounds, and for your qualification to be valid, the pony must be fully registered with the relevant breed society. The rider of the pony must be a member of any of the affiliated socities - be it the National Pony Society, Ponies UK, British Show Pony Society, The Showing Register or one of the Native Breed Socities. Where the rider is under 18, then the owner must be the member of the above. Correct except my understanding is that BOTH owner and rider require to be members of an appropriate society, unless the rider is under 18 in which case it is just the owner.
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Post by arrogorn on Oct 28, 2012 10:25:53 GMT
Thank You.
In this case it will save me a fortune as I have an intermediate but I am too old, therefore I have a jockey, so now we can do Int classes under The showing register and only pay £20 and without having to join pony, rider and owner under BSPS. (its not worth us joing BSPS for maybe 2 shows)
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paul
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by paul on Oct 28, 2012 10:35:17 GMT
For those wishing to enter HOYS M&M qualifying rounds, and for your qualification to be valid, the pony must be fully registered with the relevant breed society. The rider of the pony must be a member of any of the affiliated socities - be it the National Pony Society, Ponies UK, British Show Pony Society, The Showing Register or one of the Native Breed Socities. Where the rider is under 18, then the owner must be the member of the above. Correct except my understanding is that BOTH owner and rider require to be members of an appropriate society, unless the rider is under 18 in which case it is just the owner. Not according to the HOYS rules, which can be dowloaded from their website. In flat and worker M&M classes, only the rider needs to be a member. The owner need only be a member if the jockey is a junior, as would be the case in Lead Rein and First Ridden.
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Post by the showing register on Oct 28, 2012 10:42:23 GMT
Good morning guestless and arrogorn
Both the owner and rider have to be a member of one of the societies. A junior rider has to have an adult registered as the owner of the pony. If you are 18 years or over you can own and ride the pony yourself.
So a package is - £20 and covers an adult owner, junior rider and pony. Or if you have no junior rider - £15 adult membership , £5 horse/ pony registration Extra juniors and extra animals £5 each
In the case of the Intermediate if the rider was 18 years or over they would need a seperate adult membership of £15.
arrogorn if you give me the age of your rider I will tell you exactly how much it will cost for an annual membership for you,rider and pony.
Wendy
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Post by Linzy D ickinson on Oct 28, 2012 10:53:35 GMT
I think this whole debate raises a lot of issues. It's a case of free-market economics, isn't it, and competitors will choose whichever 'market' best suits them. For me, there are number of concerns:
1. Grandstand Media ought to have made a clear, public statement about the role of TSingR in HOYS qualifiers. It's a really important development with some big implications for the established showing societies.
2. The confusion about the name is generating a lot of free publicity. If that's not a deliberate strategy then it's certainly a happy accident. It's something that is commonly done in emerging economies (India, Africa) for that very reason.
3. There is a plethora of gala type shows all over the country at a time when competitors at all levels are being more selective about where they spend their money - as well as the major showing societies, there are Equifest, Royal London, Midarc, Amateur Showing Soc, Equestrian Life, Trailblazers and innumerable club level championships and independently run gala shows. There is a finite number of competitors, and where some shows gain, others inevitably lose. I don't think it's a case of TSingR creating an opportunity here, so much as entering an already flooded market. If TSingR is successful, others will inevitably lose out. It's free market economics and competitors will go where they get best value and enjoyment, but I doubt there is room for all these gala shows to co-exist and thrive.
4. At a time when some of the long-established breeding and showing societies are struggling finanically it's very worrying to see the emergence of a new organisation that may divert some of the HOYS-related income stream. It's very difficult to quantify what the impact might be...how many members register solely for HOYS eligibility and would not continue to register anyway for other purposes? It sends a clear message to the pony showing societies that in order to retain and boost membership they need to compete more strongly in an increasingly aggressive market - something that does not necessarily come easily to those that have charitable status and a non-commercial ethos. The long-term impact may well be that we lose some of the established, charitable organisations if we don't continue to support them.
5. The opportunity for competitors who do not want to 'do the circuit' but do want to enter one or two HOYS qualifiers to do so at less expense, is a good thing. It would have been, and still could be, really good to see this opportunity offered by the established pony showing societies offering a DAY TICKET system similar to that offered by SHBGB, etc. If I were running one of the established pony showing societies, that is exactly what I would now do to try to protect my market share. If part of the rationale of TSingR is to provide more affordable routes to HOYS qualifiers for grass roots competitors then that does not really stand up in the horse classes because the day ticket system already exists.
6. It is always really concerning to the established societies when a new organisation emerges that 'offers' judges the opportunity of joining their judges' list. It takes years and years of training, mentoring and selecting judges to get a good, strong panel established. Yes, most judges serve on more than one panel, but the established societies have invested substantial manpower and resources in to their judging panels and it is exploitative of new organisations to piggy-back on the established societies in this way by offering judges from other panels a more or less automatic place on their list. There is nothing to prevent this, and again, it's the force of free-market economics, but this is precisely how newly emerging organisations are able to under-cut the established societies, because they are exploiting investments already made by those societies.
It will be very interesting to see how things develop. Personally, I hope it's an impetus for the NPS in particular to revistalise its modus operandi in order to compete more effectively for market share.
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Post by the showing register on Oct 28, 2012 11:06:50 GMT
Good afternoon Linzy
Thank you for your very well reasoned post. I would just like to add that day tickets do not include HOYS or RIHS qualifying classes (BSHA)
I quote
'' Non-Members may purchase up to a maximum of two ‘Day Tickets’ per Exhibitor, per Horse, per season. A Day Ticket will allow entry into Novice, Amateur, Home Produced and Open Affiliated classes only, but not RIHS or HOYS qualifying classes. Horses registered using the ‘Day Ticket’ DO NOT require a JMB Height Certificate until full registration, see Rule 3(A). (i)''
I am not sure about Sports Horse I will have to check
Wendy
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Post by Linzy D ickinson on Oct 28, 2012 11:12:20 GMT
Thanks, Wendy. I show ponies so am not fully familiar with the Horse societies. I think a day ticket system would be an excellent way of enabling low cost participation in a local county show HOYS class for competitors who want the thrill of competing at their local county show. One for all societies to think about IMO.
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Post by the showing register on Oct 28, 2012 11:57:26 GMT
Hi again
You are right it is something to think about but for £20 you can show all over the country !
Wendy
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Post by tabbycat on Oct 28, 2012 12:13:28 GMT
I think whatever one thinks of the TSR good or bad it has raised a discussion about what we as members want from our societies which surely must be a good thing .
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Post by silvester on Oct 28, 2012 18:24:42 GMT
Why shouldn't the established societies have a 'kick up the backside' and rethink their marketing and pricing structure?! There rates just seem to go up and up each year!
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Post by CarolineNelson on Oct 28, 2012 18:37:15 GMT
Why shouldn't the established societies have a 'kick up the backside' and rethink their marketing and pricing structure?! There rates just seem to go up and up each year! Silvester, to a degree I agree with you, but, as has been said previously, some (all the Breed Societies and the NPS, for starters) have only limited funds with which to best serve their members. With a Charitable Society, that is the norm. On the UP side, Education, Welfare and the relevant Breed promotion, remain their main aims - this is a necessary part of the remit of a Charity. Showing is encompassed in this.
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zara
Junior Member
Posts: 185
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Post by zara on Oct 28, 2012 19:47:17 GMT
10 years ago I stewarded for BSPS at champs and I saw blatant waste of members money on the way judges and stewards were enjoying themselves and thought then that more should be done for members I feel as the showing register is limited as a company at company house reports can be viewed. with some societies certain individuals think that the societies owe them a living, which should not be the case. If this new society gives them a kick up the backside so be it!
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Post by louisem on Oct 29, 2012 8:28:47 GMT
But, the question still remains, if a society has a card system in place which is used to fund the classes at HOYS, what will happen?. I'm assuming The Showing Register are nit going to fund the breed society classes with the revenue they generate from those breed members? And will The Showing Register find sponsors for that section? As the society does?
So in short if your breed society funds it's own classes through sponsorship and cards systems and those are taken away what will ultimately happen to your classes?
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Post by mcnaughty on Oct 29, 2012 8:42:16 GMT
What a completely ridiculous situation! Why on earth would a new association want to confuse potential new customers in this way from the outset? The only reason would be to take a free ride on the back of the other two groups surely? However, by doing this they are also taking the gamble that the other two groups are going to carry on behaving themselves because if they don't it would muddy their own water. If they had been sensible, a fresh new name would have singled them out for glory ... or fall!
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Post by tabbycat on Oct 29, 2012 9:46:21 GMT
I think it is a good thing that people can enter a hoys qualifier without the expense of having to be a member of certain societies . I think everyone is focusing on Hoys here which tbh is where alot of the current societies have lost their way . We are supporters of our breed societies and the NPS but even the NPS of late have forgotten I think what they are there to do .
We had no catalogue at the chps this year and there were not finalist rosettes in all the classes, very disappointing ,for a friend of mine who had travelled all the way down from Scotland to her first ever chps after me telling her how enjoyable it is !!!!
Not good enough when you have spent money all summer trying to qualify - I realise that it maybe down to sponsors but this is what the majority aim for . I think you can even for go less prize money if you have GOOD ROSETTES it makes the children happy and secretly the adults as well .
So TSR here is one for you - we don't need prize money nice as it is the pros nearly always end up with it anyway - so spend the money on rosettes !!!
Have proper novice classes !!! no hoys /rihs /olympia ponies .
Have true amateur classes the standard is good enough now .
In open classes lets ask for a bit more not just the usual basic show lets see what our ponies/horses are capable of !!! lets make it interesting to watch .
Remember the professionals are very good at their jobs because that is what they are paid to do but they are not always sat on the best animals and on occasions should not always win !!
Each society has its strength, NPS is an umbrella for breed societies and the riding pony stud book. Promote them get the breed societies on board look to your core members . Bsps have always been a society for the children encourage them that it is what your are good at sp/shp can do more !!! believe or not I have seen sp's leave the ground children want to do more than one class with their ponies as I'm sure do parents . Puk brilliant in providing training and education for everyone keep working away at it .!!!
The glory days are over everyone is going to have to work very hard to remain in competiton the councils of these societies would do well to canvas their members to find out what they really want they might be surprised .
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Post by sagalout on Oct 29, 2012 9:58:08 GMT
Very little is required of a private limited company.
However, a society with an elected board and AGM makes all of its finaces available at the AGM in the Treasure's report, and any member can ask questions. The audited reoirt also shows how much was paid to other organisations, such as HOYS, sponsoships, expenses, even gifts are recorded.
As to increase in fees each year, anyone who runs a business or club will know that fixed and vaiable costs are increasing- rent, rates, utilties, insurances, postage, travel expenses, printing and even the increasing cost of employing staff regardless of any pay rise for them, let alone the hire of faciilties for judges assessment and training.
Anyway, I digress - As people being to book time off for next year's shows, especially in the often rationed school holiday period, ('the 'show-cation'), renew various society memberships, attend AGMs, arrange thier transport etc , a formal statement from HOYS and lists of 2013 qualfiers and the GM new rules to include ShowING Register would be beneficial.
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