|
Post by pipandflo on Jun 27, 2014 11:47:16 GMT
So what's the answer? If there is a problem at Norfolk that's another devastated child. I read about the little boy in the 122 mm whp and could only imagine my daughter in that position - even now she's grown up. We are all only human so anyone any ideas/
|
|
|
Post by lancs on Jun 27, 2014 11:55:27 GMT
I think the sheets should be availble for all to see after each class, then at least any mistakes would be picked up much sooner, and perhaps a re presentation of the rosettes could take place if at all possible. I always thought the championship was judged as a separate class anyway.
|
|
aura
Full Member
Posts: 334
|
Post by aura on Jun 27, 2014 19:02:21 GMT
I think that the marks being added up should go through two pairs of hands. This could eliminate human error as Surley two stars couldn't add up incorrect
|
|
|
Post by 09rebel99 on Jun 27, 2014 19:25:22 GMT
Two stewards and two judges should check the marks and sign to say they have checked? This is what happens at the bsps shows I have stewarded at. Mistakes will always happen but it is sad for those who get tangled up in them. I know of at least 2 classes at Cheshire that were wrong. 1 rectified just after rosettes had been given and the other was spotted by myself that night when I saw the sheets on facebook.
|
|
|
Post by Philippa on Jun 27, 2014 20:55:59 GMT
I know we are talking old school but would it not be possible to move into this century and send a calculator in with one of the stewards? ?
|
|
|
Post by sparkysunny on Jun 27, 2014 21:22:46 GMT
It's not rocket science - just two numbers to add together for each competitor. I agree with Philippa - a calculator would help with the mental maths, then it's just about checking for the top however many. From reading various threads it seems that it's not clear in every class or under each society whether the ride or conformation mark takes precedence - another plea for the societies to liaise with each other and to try to simplify the system by agreeing on basic rules. I appreciate that classes are run to a tight time schedule and so there is pressure on the judges and stewards to come up with their results as quickly as possible, but, for the sake of another couple of minutes of double checking, there would be far fewer mistakes and disappointed/devastated competitors.
|
|
|
Post by Toaster on Jun 27, 2014 22:38:10 GMT
A discreet pocket calculator and two pairs of eyes. A calculator may not be very traditional but then the concept of marks probably isn't either.
If it save the blushes of an official and an upset child then surely it had to be the answer
|
|
|
Post by molliesmum on Jun 28, 2014 6:55:52 GMT
Surely as a judge you should double check the rules on which mark takes precedence in the event of a tie before going into the ring to judge such an important class? Having 2 or more ponies on the same marks is not unusual. And having the rule book to hand for the relevant qualifier so any query can be looked up immediately and addressed there and then seems sensible. (I have had a judge do this before presenting rosettes in a lead rein qualifier, checking that handles on saddles were allowed under the rules as they weren't sure). I'd much rather wait a bit longer for the correct result.
|
|
|
Post by 5874julie on Jun 29, 2014 21:02:42 GMT
what happened at norfolk?
|
|
|
Post by edoran on Jun 29, 2014 22:11:21 GMT
I don't think a calculator would help because they must be seeing a different number to add up due to various reasons so the marks would still be entered in to the calculator Wrong , it's not hard to add up 2 numbers but when there are so many to do they start to lose focus so I think at least 2 people should add them up and check ?
|
|
aura
Full Member
Posts: 334
|
Post by aura on Jun 30, 2014 8:17:50 GMT
what happened at norfolk? In the lr the marks were added up correctly however the first place was given to the highest conformation mark asapposed to the highest ride mark. Also in the d class I think it was 2nd-4th were all on the same marks and instead of placing them in order of highest ride marks they made them all do a show again and placed them in whatever order then wished
|
|
|
Post by jamese on Jun 30, 2014 8:38:30 GMT
On both occasions this happened to my sister when she qualified for RIHS this year! Both times placed 2nd in the ring for us to go and check the marks later and realise she'd won as on joint marks with the highest conf!
Really horrible situation for all involved! The judges in our cases seemed to blame the stewards but ultimately judges are the ones who have been deemed adequate to judge/know the rules (eg. which comes 1st conf or show) and have to sign the marks sheet off!!
I contacted the BSPS about this their reply was 'this is a very rare occourance and we were just unlucky!!' But it does seem to be a constant problem this year in an array of classes and qualifiers!!
2+2=?
|
|
|
Post by lilliella1 on Jun 30, 2014 8:50:51 GMT
I know we are talking old school but would it not be possible to move into this century and send a calculator in with one of the stewards? ? Was going to say the same.
|
|
|
Post by CarolineNelson on Jun 30, 2014 10:32:55 GMT
I know we are talking old school but would it not be possible to move into this century and send a calculator in with one of the stewards????? Was going to say the same. Most scribe Stewards carry a calculator. I know I do. And check /double check with other members of the stewarding team. Then, the judges oversee and sign. There are two different issues here, neither of which (by all accounts) at the Royal Norfolk seem to relate to addition. May I add, flippancy is all very well (eg: the person who wrote 2+2=?) but, may one politely suggest that people offer their services as a steward - and discover just how exacting it can be with full classes and a tight timetable. A fellow Steward and I were commenting only just last week at the Royal Highland, how few younger people are coming forward to offer to 'work' in a show ring. It can be interesting, educational, rewarding, extremely helpful. And, very tiring. But, it is called 'giving something back'.
|
|
|
Post by 09rebel99 on Jun 30, 2014 11:31:06 GMT
Was going to say the same. Most scribe Stewards carry a calculator. I know I do. And check /double check with other members of the stewarding team. Then, the judges oversee and sign. There are two different issues here, neither of which (by all accounts) at the Royal Norfolk seem to relate to addition. May I add, flippancy is all very well (eg: the person who wrote 2+2=4) but, may one politely suggest that people offer their services as a steward - and discover just how exacting it can be with full classes and a tight timetable. A fellow Steward and I were commenting only just last week at the Royal Highland, how few younger people are coming forward to offer to 'work' in a show ring. It can be interesting, educational, rewarding, extremely helpful. And, very tiring. But, it is called 'giving something back'. I do and have been at my local riding club and local bsps shows ☺ very enjoyable and I have learnt a lot.
|
|
|
Post by 5874julie on Jun 30, 2014 22:28:40 GMT
On both occasions this happened to my sister when she qualified for RIHS this year! Both times placed 2nd in the ring for us to go and check the marks later and realise she'd won as on joint marks with the highest conf! Really horrible situation for all involved! The judges in our cases seemed to blame the stewards but ultimately judges are the ones who have been deemed adequate to judge/know the rules (eg. which comes 1st conf or show) and have to sign the marks sheet off!! I contacted the BSPS about this their reply was 'this is a very rare occourance and we were just unlucky!!' But it does seem to be a constant problem this year in an array of classes and qualifiers!! 2+2=? did they put it right for you though?
|
|
|
Post by magpie on Jul 2, 2014 12:50:27 GMT
On both occasions this happened to my sister when she qualified for RIHS this year! Both times placed 2nd in the ring for us to go and check the marks later and realise she'd won as on joint marks with the highest conf! Really horrible situation for all involved! The judges in our cases seemed to blame the stewards but ultimately judges are the ones who have been deemed adequate to judge/know the rules (eg. which comes 1st conf or show) and have to sign the marks sheet off!! I contacted the BSPS about this their reply was 'this is a very rare occourance and we were just unlucky!!' But it does seem to be a constant problem this year in an array of classes and qualifiers!! 2+2=? did they put it right for you though? Yes they did. Once was at the winter championships and it was spotted later and corrected - the person who should have been second went on to Q for rihs the next day. The second time it was rectified almost immediately - the girl who should have been second is a very good friend of the girl who should have won so they all took it in good grace. A great shame, but I am not sure what the solution would be. There have been many errors this season.
|
|
|
Post by xJBDx on Jul 2, 2014 16:41:58 GMT
Am I right in thinking ride mark has priority when horses are on joint marks, in HOYS qualifiers?? As I always thought it was the ride mark rather than confirmation that would decide, though the last few HOYS show hunter pony qualifiers I have been doing this year have had a mixture of both. At Three Counties they used the confirmation mark to decide, but at BSPS mid-summer show this weekend they used the ride mark...
|
|
|
Post by Toaster on Jul 2, 2014 19:06:13 GMT
I've just been looking at some results in the show post mortem section and was surprised to note that some M&M results sheets I was looking at had a clear box printed with the ruling on what should take precedence in the case of equal marks - I don't know if all of the forms have this but if they do how is it possible that there is so much confusion?
|
|
|
Post by rubyshoes1 on Jul 2, 2014 19:24:19 GMT
Apart from knowing which marks take precedence, at the end of the day two sets of marks are going to add up to less than 100, this is fairly basic maths, my daughter who is 19 stewards at our area bsps show when not competing, she has never been given marks probably because she is young, however she is a accountancy trainee so could probably manage!
|
|
|
Post by volatis on Jul 3, 2014 6:50:48 GMT
The rules on all HOYS qualifiers can be found on the HOYS website, and judges are expected to have read these rules if they are judging a qualifier. All show secretaries were sent the appropriate mark sheets which this year clearly state which mark takes precedence, and these mark sheets should have been used.
|
|
|
Post by charliefox on Jul 3, 2014 7:40:15 GMT
Such a shame especially for the younger competitors involved when the marks are added up incorrectly - luckily at the royal norfolk in the section D class- whilst 2nd to 7th were placed incorrectly - at least they got the winner correct!
|
|
|
Post by Dipsy on Jul 3, 2014 7:52:36 GMT
Was going to say the same. Most scribe Stewards carry a calculator. I know I do. And check /double check with other members of the stewarding team. Then, the judges oversee and sign. There are two different issues here, neither of which (by all accounts) at the Royal Norfolk seem to relate to addition. May I add, flippancy is all very well (eg: the person who wrote 2+2=?) but, may one politely suggest that people offer their services as a steward - and discover just how exacting it can be with full classes and a tight timetable. A fellow Steward and I were commenting only just last week at the Royal Highland, how few younger people are coming forward to offer to 'work' in a show ring. It can be interesting, educational, rewarding, extremely helpful. And, very tiring. But, it is called 'giving something back'. I've started to steward too, under some of the top judges (well in my opinion) and find it more than helpful as its very interesting to see everything from the judges eyes.
|
|
|
Post by CarolineNelson on Jul 3, 2014 9:49:38 GMT
Well done you. Any stewarding is helpful and educational.
Even tedious but very important stuff such as being on the gate for workers is enourmously helpful to show committees.
One other thing - Stewarding also enables one to accept the fact that whilst the great majority are lovely, not all competitors are pleasant at times.
Indeed, it can quite be an arduous task - stewarding isn't just all about being in the middle with the judge and it's best to volunteer for any task and take turn about with your colleagues!
|
|
|
Post by cyffryn on Jul 6, 2014 22:26:21 GMT
I thourghly enjoy stewarding however being dyslexic with numbers I would always carry a calculator and get someone to double check scores. However I do wonder in these days of technology why there cannot be some programme in a hand held computer where the scores are put in and automatically added. It would even be much more interesting for spectators if at the larger shows they could automatically go up on a score board . They can do it in most other sports with times, scores etc- why not in ours
|
|
|
Post by mayhem on Jul 7, 2014 10:55:20 GMT
I have always been of the opinion that the HOYS AND RI should have, hand held computers, that can not be altered, they add up automaticly, if the wrong number has been put in then only one person with the correct password can alter, along with an explanation, as to why it has been incorrectly put in.
|
|
topper
Junior Member
Posts: 143
|
Post by topper on Jul 7, 2014 17:19:10 GMT
I have stewarded at the bsps champs for more years than I care to remember. When the judge gives us the mark ie 38 we repeat three and eight, etc and the judge confirms, then the correct mark is written down in full view if the judge Mistakes can be made, we are only human, but with the system we have in our ring, mistakes get picked up before the results are given out. We have 2 stewards, each doing their own marks ( way of going and conf) Each stewards adds up their own sheet then our chief steward comes into the ring and re checks the marks We then stand together whilst the marks are put on one sheet, and all observe whilst the marks are transferred to placings. This takes time but I am happy to say it works in our ring and no child gets placed wrongly. The judge is given the mark sheet to sign before we read out the results, most judges now do a quick tot up to reassure themselves the marks are correct If you keep to this format, no mistakes make the line upand no child is disappointed It helps that we have the same team year after year and know our job, but we don't care how long it takes at the end of the class, we just make sure everything is correct It's not rocket science I admit but after 8 hours in a ring for 4 to 5 days you need to have your wits about you. It is not an easy job but very satisfying and it is our way of giving back I just wish more young people would come forward to steward, they would learn such a lot.
|
|
|
Post by CarolineNelson on Jul 7, 2014 18:17:43 GMT
I have stewarded at the bsps champs for more years than I care to remember. When the judge gives us the mark ie 38 we repeat three and eight, etc and the judge confirms, then the correct mark is written down in full view if the judge Mistakes can be made, we are only human, but with the system we have in our ring, mistakes get picked up before the results are given out. We have 2 stewards, each doing their own marks ( way of going and conf) Each stewards adds up their own sheet then our chief steward comes into the ring and re checks the marks We then stand together whilst the marks are put on one sheet, and all observe whilst the marks are transferred to placings. This takes time but I am happy to say it works in our ring and no child gets placed wrongly. The judge is given the mark sheet to sign before we read out the results, most judges now do a quick tot up to reassure themselves the marks are correct If you keep to this format, no mistakes make the line upand no child is disappointed It helps that we have the same team year after year and know our job, but we don't care how long it takes at the end of the class, we just make sure everything is correct It's not rocket science I admit but after 8 hours in a ring for 4 to 5 days you need to have your wits about you. It is not an easy job but very satisfying and it is our way of giving back I just wish more young people would come forward to steward, they would learn such a lot. SO well said Topper! (I attempted to say the same, a few posts ago). You've Stewarded for me most efficiently at important shows - and I agree with everything you you say. Yes, to "us" it sounds a bit like a Bingo game. But, it is precise. And it works. To the disbelievers, may I suggest that you listen to the wise words of "TOPPER".
|
|
|
Post by gooogle on Jul 12, 2014 22:37:28 GMT
My other half scathingly asks why county show level events are not digital like meter readers , the steward types in score and it goes to a computer at secretary's tent and where it is added up by the computer, the results printed and taken back to the ring ! I add a defining comment would be nice eg Almost perfect, Lovely show shame about wrong leg, Trot a bit rushed, A bit strong in canter, Just some examples ! Still dreaming lol. But like you say a calculator would do .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 14:53:36 GMT
I know judges are only humans and can sympathise totally but did have a giggle at the festival of hunting judge's inability to add up 33+34 correctly! Felt awful for young jockey who thought she had qualified in 122cm shp though, she looked thrilled in the ring
|
|