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Post by fellephant on Jul 11, 2014 9:05:49 GMT
No sour grapes from me, we're nowhere near that level but we were there watching the FDH class at GYS. As a spectator it was quite hard to follow the shows as they were overlapping so much. IMO some key parts come at the start / end - the first canter transition, the turn to come across the middle and associated downwards transition and at the end - the series of downwards transitions from the extension through the paces and finally the halt - these are all key areas that IMO the judge needs to see (as well as the paces generally). I know it's not a dressage test but if the judge doesn't see those areas then essentially you're being judged on trotting on a straight line, one canter transition and the extension.
Plus, if i was good enough to ride in that fab ring and compete at the Yorkshire I'd flipping well want my moment, not to see the other pony only just finishing as I was half way across my trot diagonal or see someone halfway through their show taking the judges attention when I was halting and saluting!
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Post by nst0708 on Jul 11, 2014 10:02:40 GMT
I would have quite happily joined in on this thread about poor judging, because I have witnessed pretty appalling sights around the show grounds this year ponies wrong legging on BOTH legs and still getting ride marks in the 40's!! However, my faith was restored on Tues at the HOYS at Area 25, the Lead Rein and First Ridden championship was judged with first and second prize winners brought in from both HOYS classes. Now I assumed that the two winners of the classes would take Champion and Reserve but one of the winners didn't go well and the reserve was rightly given to the 2nd prize winner who went beautifully. Hooray I thought it was actually judged on the Championship and not the previous classes a glimmer of hope for me albeit the first this season!!
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Sore loser
Jul 11, 2014 11:37:09 GMT
via mobile
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Post by welshiegirl on Jul 11, 2014 11:37:09 GMT
I witnessed a similar thing watching the amateur hunters championship, 2nd of the light weights went fantastic and tbh better than that class winner and won champion, so it was nice to see a championship judged individually at GYS too!
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Post by bigmama on Jul 11, 2014 11:51:23 GMT
That is a really admirable attitude bigmama. If you hadn't already qualified, you may have been more annoyed though as I know I would. Not particularly, just done this for so many years to realise 'that's showing' and not to go under that particular judge again .... we already knew the conformation judge likes our pony but hadn't heard of the ride judge before so thought as we had paid our money, would go have a day out and give her a try .. we learned a lesson that day and will apply it to any pony we show in the future, ie. avoid her at all costs! Also learned not to go to GYS again unless we have two good judges for our pony as GYS is not good value for money Good luck to all those still trying to qualify Hoys 2014 ... believe me, we tried twelve years for it to happen to us and it was well worth the wait!
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smalley
Full Member
Horses lend us the wings we lack
Posts: 419
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Post by smalley on Jul 11, 2014 13:47:52 GMT
I was at the GYS in the F/D class and I was delighted with how my pony went and for me that was just as good as any placing. I knew I wasn't going to get placed in a huge class of top class ponies so I was going in for the fun and to try not to disgrace ourselves. Like I said I was so happy with how he went however I was then gutted to see the marks and find he had dropped 3 ride marks (despite doing a much better show) and 10 conf marks - going from being the top of the middle (if that makes sense!!) in the conformation section to being almost bottom since his last qualifier. But I am perfectly happy to shrug it off and look forward to our next outing, it's all for fun and experience anyway.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 11, 2014 16:41:32 GMT
he had dropped 3 ride marks (despite doing a much better show) and 10 conf marks - going from being the top of the middle (if that makes sense!!) in the conformation section to being almost bottom since his last qualifier. But I am perfectly happy to shrug it off and look forward to our next outing, it's all for fun and experience anyway. This may not be helpful in the slightest (and does not directly relate to the judging at GYS) so ignore me if it's not, but you can't really compare your marks from one show to another as each judge will use the marks differently - some score quite highly and others score lower. There isn't a set method for using marks, ie deduct 5 for a wrong leg, etc and that's one of the reasons why the system can come under so much criticism.
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Post by Springtime on Jul 11, 2014 19:26:18 GMT
stuart hollings wrote a very informative piece on the use if marks in his h&h a few weeks back. it was a bit of a light bulb moment for me as i could never understand how the same pony could get such varying conformation mark. will try to find article which explained it very well.
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smalley
Full Member
Horses lend us the wings we lack
Posts: 419
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Post by smalley on Jul 11, 2014 20:28:46 GMT
Guestless - I'm still trying to think of it like that, I mostly compete in dressage where obviously the marks don't change as much so I'm used to get a better mark when you ride a better test! I was thinking it was because there's only the one mark, so the judge has to have a base mark with the first pony out and mark the others in comparison to that one, and since there were so many lovely ponies it's understandable that his mark was lower in comparison. I'll try and find that article in H&H and have a read, it might help!
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Post by Newlandwelshies on Jul 11, 2014 22:36:15 GMT
I have read this thread with interest and waited until now to post. Two things i must say is if marks are changed after scores are totalled up then i can fully understand sour grapes, i would be livid to see this after all the hard work we and i am quite sure that everyone on here does. Not sure if that is what people were referring to regarding the sour grapes. if not i will keep my nose out but i for one felt that thread was justified.
Also whilst i can completely agree regarding quite a lot of judging i would like to stick up for the judge who undertook the m & m classes on thursday (lr and fr). The class was seriously over the safety limit for the ring and the ponies were nose to tail and goodness knows how hard to judge. This is not the judges fault and she judged no doubt as best as she could. I did watch only about half i have to be honest, the class i think went on for nearly 2 hours in very hot weather and what i did see the judge seemed very friendly and tried to give her attention, although i dont doubt she probably did try and send things on, not to rush through but to also help the little competitors some of whom only looked about 3 or 4 years old, sat there for sooo long in such heat. To me gys let down not only the competitiors in this class but also were unfair to the judge to expect her to probably judge such a large class in such a small ring. Luckily a very nice pony won but i am sure many others didnt get the chance to show their true potential.
I later watched this judge in the fr and watched the full class of 13. This class followed on the lead rein for which the judge had already been out there two hours in the heat and I was very impressed to say the least. It had unfortunately a lot of ponies napping, spooking and wouldn't even come out from the line and again the tannoy went off unsettling another pony. She gave fully attention and encouragement to each little one in that class, watched each one of their shows and salute to a point i made a diary note to find out who she was as i certainly would be happy for my daughter to ride under her anytime. She did not rush the show in anyway. Additionally, she in my opinion placed the top four ponies spot on that i had named out to my husband one by one in the same order. Dont know if she would have liked our pony, had we competed but would have at least been happy to known my daugther was under i judge like this. Sorry to rant on but whilst i do agree with a lot of comments regarding the judging i would also like to stick up for what i thought was good judging and who was very good with the children. Maybe i missed something in the lead rein but i saw ever minute in the first ridden.
By the way anyone know who the judge was?
Rant over....
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Post by Philippa on Jul 12, 2014 6:15:24 GMT
I also thought the LR judge made a good job from a bad situation and by pulling ponies from various places in the line up proved she watched them all. I saw her on many occasions talking to the jockeys and what seemed to be helping them with maybe reins etc and also after she had made her decision going to a couple of exhibitors to probably tell them why they weren't placed. There was one pony in particular which I liked but it was a little unsettled but did a super show, the judge went straight to them and gave very encouraging feedback.
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fernwhitecharity
Full Member
www.spanglefish.com/thefernwhitecharityshow
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Post by fernwhitecharity on Jul 12, 2014 6:26:46 GMT
Mini m&m judge was the lovely Sharon Thomas
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Post by Newlandwelshies on Jul 12, 2014 6:39:55 GMT
thanks fernwhitecharity. x
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Post by Toaster on Jul 12, 2014 7:54:03 GMT
I think that good feedback can help prevent situations that may be seen as losing sorely and is particularly helpful for children who may be disappointed. I've seen some wonderful judges so far this year, some that have even taken time to speak to everyone in the class even if just a few words (although I understand that's not always possible)
In saying that, judges comments can lead to 'sore losing' at a recent show a competitor came out of the ring looking annoyed -sore loser? It seemed like that to onlookers perhaps, it turns out that the judge had made what was perhaps a passing comment to some owners of a particular breed in a mixed breed class that made them feel that they hadn't been judged fairly
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Post by Springtime on Jul 12, 2014 12:44:50 GMT
STUART HOLLINGS COLUMN HORSE AND HOUND 17 APRIL 2014
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Post by dancer on Jul 12, 2014 20:37:05 GMT
We were judged by Mrs S Thomas last weekend (not sure if she is the same lady) but also very good & encouraging to the adults in the WHP classes!
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Post by tysilio99 on Jul 13, 2014 19:41:42 GMT
The horse going well is the most proudest thing, alot better than a rosette. Would rather be at bottom of line after horse going well than the top after horse going poor!
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Post by dizzydora on Jul 14, 2014 11:40:25 GMT
Yesterday at the NOE i competed in the Leeman Supreme Veteran championship and there was certainly some questionable judging. The judges didnt really watch the pony that went before me to do it's show and were more interested in chatting with each other and looking at the line up which i thought was quite rude. It also seemed that poor behaviour was not taken into account either, this seems to happening more and more frequently this season from what you see and read which is a shame as it will end up killing our sport off. I didnt get placed yesterday but my horse gave her usual foot perfect performance so i was very pleased with her, and i already have my olympia ticket so yesterday was just a bonus class. With so many lovely horses and ponies in the line up, judges really need to penalise poor behaviour and manners because they weren't short of ones to choose from. I've been in the showing game for many years now to know just to make a note of the names and dont go under them again but it is still annoying when it happens.
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Post by sundance20 on Jul 14, 2014 13:59:19 GMT
I think I'm doing moaning wrong, I'm more moaning that I thought I deserved a lower ride mark than I got!
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Post by Doris90 on Jul 16, 2014 23:01:39 GMT
Yesterday at the NOE i competed in the Leeman Supreme Veteran championship and there was certainly some questionable judging. The judges didnt really watch the pony that went before me to do it's show and were more interested in chatting with each other and looking at the line up which i thought was quite rude. It also seemed that poor behaviour was not taken into account either, this seems to happening more and more frequently this season from what you see and read which is a shame as it will end up killing our sport off. I didnt get placed yesterday but my horse gave her usual foot perfect performance so i was very pleased with her, and i already have my olympia ticket so yesterday was just a bonus class. With so many lovely horses and ponies in the line up, judges really need to penalise poor behaviour and manners because they weren't short of ones to choose from. I've been in the showing game for many years now to know just to make a note of the names and dont go under them again but it is still annoying when it happens. I was next to you in the line up ! I honestly thought your lovely mare had it in the bag! bizarre judging!! They didn't watch any of us! I hope you got your cheesy chips!!
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Post by Kerbeck on Jul 18, 2014 9:09:45 GMT
I honestly think judging is becoming more and more hard to understand these days, I haven't actually done a qulaifier last season or this season as I just can't bare to part with my hard earned money to see questionable judging. Obviously there are lots of animals going to HOYS & RIHS that do deserve their places but I am reading of more and more mistakes in adding up of marks plus judges that should no longer be judging these qualifiers.
I have voted with my feet by deciding not to support these shows at the moment, do I miss them? Yes I miss riding in the big rings but that's it, do my ponies miss them? Definitely not! I am enjoying competing at agricultural level still big strong classes but the judging is much more transparent and it costs about £10 tops to enter, I can think of 7 agricultural shows within a 15 mile radius of me.
On top of that I am doing a lot more dressage, so much more chilled, get your time, turn up and ride, get constructive feedback and leave an hour later! Ponies seem to enjoy this more than showing too. So I guess those that still choose to show in these qualifiers maybe need to accept that this is how it is, pay your fee and take your chance. Is it right? Not in my eyes as it really seems that putting hard work in to schooling your animals is no longer paying off!
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Post by frustratedJudge on Jul 18, 2014 9:50:03 GMT
I am a judge on several panels. I VERY rarely get asked to judge at affiliated level. In fact have not done so in my own area or next door areas for the last 2 years! I know I am not alone in becomming more and more disheartened in seeing the same 'favoured' names booked to judge, even when this will have incurred massive travelling expenses and accom fees for the area show. No wonder people are getting hacked off, entry fees are going up and facey judges are seen to be 'doing favours' for each other. One society has just promoted many judges from horse panels straight onto the pony panels. In theory I am not against this. BUT what is the point when there are already many many judges who have been through the assessment process, done the time, got their star and still don' t get asked. Am I a sore looser, no I no longer compete , but I am definately a frustrated judge.
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Post by Guestless on Jul 18, 2014 9:54:26 GMT
One society has just promoted many judges from horse panels straight onto the pony panels. That to me is a HUGE issue. How can societies expect horse judges to be familiar with breed standards? I'm fed up seeing Highlands with no bone and flicky toes at the top of the line up. Breed type is already changing due to the show ring and I dread to think what some breeds could look like in 20 years if we don't put a halt to it.
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jigsaw
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by jigsaw on Jul 18, 2014 10:09:58 GMT
agree totally Guestless, disheartened by some of the line ups in Highland classes.
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Post by sjw87 on Jul 18, 2014 10:26:55 GMT
I try my best not to be a sore loser and am more than happy to stand below quality horses who have done better on the day whether they be ridden by amateurs or professionals. I am very self critical and am objective with my horses and accept their faults. It is however difficult to just accept it when you see an animal qualify that just simply didn't go well. Sometimes the judge just prefers a particular type or a mistake is made in the go round behind the judge so they don't see it which I totally accept but if it just doesn't go well on the day, it should be dropped down the line.
I tend to keep myself to myself - I produce my horses single handedly and often show alone too. Whilst I recognise some pro's names or faces, I'm really not familiar with 'who's who' and it doesn't bother me whether I am competing against pro's or not. I'm happy so long as my horses go well but it is rather disheartening when you see something qualify which really should have been well down the line (if placed at all), and then when you see the results on here or elsewhere, discover that said horse is actually owned by a judge who has travelled miles from home for that particular show!
As a competitor, I do feel uncomfortable witnessing behaviour of sore losers though - I had a few years out from competing and upon my return, found a massive change in someone I had previously competed against. They had gone from being a lovely, polite person who would accept being beaten by something better to now leaving the ring with a face on them if they've not been placed top whether their horse went well or not (although I think they fail to see their faults now as their ego has sadly grown so much). It makes me uncomfortable as I may have witnessed fair judging to then hear the judge and winners slated for it being a fix when in fact they genuinely deserved to win.
Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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