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Post by maxandpaddy on Jul 11, 2014 15:27:17 GMT
I promise this is NOT sour grapes more I'm confused We are number 1475 in class 129 the score sheets are up on the GYS website (ive screen shotted them incase they disappear again) greatyorkshireshow.co.uk/entries-results/online-resultsThere are 2 score sheet marks up for this class? In one we score higher 42 and it would of meant a 6th place then its crossed out and altered to 32, the second score sheet is rewritten with the altered mark so we finnished 10th Maybe they filled in the wrong column so altered it? but nothing obvious as no one scored that number Happy with 10th anyway one off a rosette but still a bit confusing as to why
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Post by maxandpaddy on Jul 11, 2014 16:02:21 GMT
Had a great day anyway, happy with 10th against some amazing ponies but I do wonder sometimes about how things like this happen. The difference between 10th and no rosette and 6th with a rosette for us is so huge My daughter is gutted...she's the one that looked on the website
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Post by chloesmum on Jul 11, 2014 16:50:42 GMT
Really sorry for your daughter and I am afraid this sounds like another case of marksheets not completed as per HOYS rules - this was also the case at Northleach in a couple of classes. Marks MUST be written on the official form and any alterations initialled by the judge on the original sheet - only the steward should record the mark. I am sure it is an innocent error but again it is the message it sends out.
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Post by maxandpaddy on Jul 11, 2014 16:56:51 GMT
This is the score sheet that was then...replaced with a neatly written one I dont normally moan or complain, but I cant understand this. Shes 15... we do it ourselves, she works her tush off so the difference between 6th and 10th is huge!!
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Post by maxandpaddy on Jul 11, 2014 16:59:32 GMT
if the cross out was immediate...as in maybe the steward misheard then fine...but this was total'ed up before the alteration
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Post by Karen, garrettponies on Jul 11, 2014 17:15:42 GMT
That's wrong, it's been totalled up then changed!!!
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Post by rubyshoes1 on Jul 11, 2014 19:08:24 GMT
certainly looks strange to me, looks like it was altered after the final total, I thought alterations should be signed off
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Post by judyh on Jul 11, 2014 19:55:00 GMT
Definitely altered after final total. In your position I would take it further.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jul 11, 2014 20:09:47 GMT
Being devils advocate here I think that possibly what has happened is that steward 1 has misheard steward 2 when they have transferred the marks, I agree that the judges should have signed the sheet, but with the best will in the world, stewards do sometimes mishear! I know how galling it must be maxandpaddy :-(
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Post by Newlandwelshies on Jul 11, 2014 21:54:21 GMT
Maxandpaddy, i saw this thread earlier on today, but waited until i could double check mark sheets i had seen from another class earlier in the week, which i thought the same had happened. Just had the chance to look on the gys website and the mark sheets and if you look in m and m results class 94 the same thing has happened and the competitor (279) has had 10 marks added to it's ride mark after the totalling up. It is quite clear to see and i felt wrong at the time. A neater version was re written on the next page. It is exactly the same as yours, save for it brought the competitor up to from not being placed to i think 5th!. I do not know how to put a copy of the mark sheet on here but if someone could it would be interesting to compare and should surely add merit to your case.
Placings at this level are hard enough to achieve when home produced and seeing things like this does not help. x
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Post by maxandpaddy on Jul 12, 2014 1:37:34 GMT
I've calmed down now Maybe it was a genuine mistake... either way its not going to get her the rosette or the chance to ride round in the lap of honour with the 'big boys' Wish they hadnt put both copies up though
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Post by kateanne0 on Jul 12, 2014 8:04:04 GMT
I thought mark sheets couldn't be changed and I think that means not rewritten as well!? Ok, if a steward misheard the mark but how did whichever judge remember that that particular score should have been 10 marks less maybe 30 minutes to an hour later (depends on size of class)? Marks should be read back to the judge at the time of writing and before the total is written in otherwise a very genuine mistake appears sinister.
Showing is becoming a bigger minefield than in previous years. It's always hard to compete with the 'big boys' and if it appears that a person should have been up there it's even worse and sour grapes would be perfectly in order in my opinion.
A new rule should be brought in for the steward to say the mark back to the judge before writing it on the sheet, thereafter it cannot be changed and mark sheets should never be rewritten.
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Post by chloesmum on Jul 12, 2014 9:12:05 GMT
Having just had my stewards pack through for the Summer Champs I thought people might be interested in the BSPS Rules for Stewards: Shortened version obviously!!! 'When given a mark by the Judge you must either repeat the mark back or make sure the Judge sees you record the given mark on the sheet. It is the Judges responsibility to ensure the correct mark is recorded. Marks must be written in pen and no alterations made - if alterations are made the judge must initial the alteration and put the reason for the alteration by the side of the mark (I personally have never seen a reason written bar one judge I stewarded for and he got told off for doing it!) In NO CIRCUMSTANCES can marks be altered to amend the result of a class - marks must be given as the pony completes show or conformation.'
To be fair to stewards particularly with very large classes and tight timetables in can be easy to make a mistake either on hearing or adding up but marks changed MUST be initialed by the Judge and the original mark sheet should not be rewritten to tidy it up. Of course HOYS M&M CLASSES are not under BSPS rules but I would hope HOYS rules were the same and if not they should be. We always hope there is a genuine reason for any changes but when these rules are not followed it makes people see things that may not be there and adds to people feeling disillusioned.
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Post by lucynlizzysmum on Jul 12, 2014 9:37:27 GMT
I occasionally steward, and always repeat the mark back to the judge - BUT on occasion when we have been transferring marks from one sheet to the other, as obviously one steward stands with one judge and one stands with the other an error can be made - I will ensure another time that I write stewards transposition error on the sheet. thanks for that Chloesmum - I wasn't aware a reason had to be put down, though if I have made an error I always tell the judge what I have done and ask them to sign it.
I do think that it is a shame that in life nowadays human error is always seen as something sinister, something to benefit another party. It doesn't matter what form you are doing nowadays!!
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Post by kateanne0 on Jul 12, 2014 9:52:23 GMT
I'm glad that there is a rule in place for the stewards to back themselves up that they have heard the mark correctly
Mistakes do happen but there should always be a reason recorded for any changes. Yes, we could all feel aggrieved at changed marks but it would help soften the blow if a reason was recorded. I do not believe that mark sheets should be rewritten to tidy them up though.
It's nearly always the children that suffer, as in this case a mark change that has clearly been displayed and incorrectly added up, marks with the mistake noticed after the rosettes have been given and a child has to move down the line. The move up the line doesn't carry the same distress as moving down.
Stewards and judges work hard and nearly always carry the brunt of competitors and spectators upset. Clearly we all need to be tolerant of mistakes, they happen, that's life. Without the stewards, judges and all the people that help behind the scenes, we wouldn't have any shows to go to.
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Post by ernie on Jul 14, 2014 20:04:51 GMT
A possible explanation could be that each steward had a sheet where they marked down the scores then the two stewards have transferred the marks over and then added them up and compared totals as a way of double checking. Once they have seen a difference in totals they have noticed it is because one steward has taken the score down incorrectly but not from the judge and that's why there are no initials. I don't for one minute think that there is an untidy and a tidy copy - one handwriting will be the performance steward and other handwriting be of the conformation steward.
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