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Post by Question on Jul 26, 2014 19:49:48 GMT
This is a genuine query I am. It out to cause trouble. Can a person produce a pony for someone and show it. Then judge it a couple of months later? (Pony did deserve to win but should it of been allowed under that particular judge)
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Post by highlanderlass on Jul 26, 2014 21:29:03 GMT
It would probably be dependent on what level but I wouldn't think so at County level.
Sent from my GT-I9505 using proboards
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Post by rubyshoes1 on Jul 27, 2014 7:04:34 GMT
I have a horse that was with a producer, also a judge, I'm pretty sure I could not go under him.
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Post by chloesmum on Jul 27, 2014 7:56:24 GMT
Under BSPS rules no. Rule book makes it very clear but in terms of other societies or non-affiliated I have no idea.
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Post by teddydog on Jul 27, 2014 9:01:22 GMT
Unfortunately it's not clear as it varies from society to society. Under TSR, PUK and NPS rules you can go under a judge that has produced your pony but only if it's not been in the previous 1 (with some) and 2 with others years.
The BSPS rule book is a rule unto itself and saids that the judge must not knowingly judge a pony that they have produced but there is no time limit put on this. A very dear friend has just lost a HOYS ticket because she went under a judge that had unknown to her had produced her pony for a brief period 6 years previously despite the judge also not recognising the pony and placing it 8th in marks and the pony coming up to win on the merit of her ride they lost their ticket as some scum bag complained even though it was clear that no wrong doing had been done by the owner or the judge as not done with intention.
Be careful the rules can be interpreted as they want to see them!!
So to answer your question if the class was under any of the above societies then the rules HAVE been broken so a complaint can be lodged.
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Post by gentian on Jul 27, 2014 9:52:46 GMT
Ah but teddydog those scum bags will stop at nothing to get a HOYS ticket. And just how big is that pony?
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Post by bigmama on Jul 27, 2014 13:04:24 GMT
This is a genuine query I am. It out to cause trouble. Can a person produce a pony for someone and show it. Then judge it a couple of months later? (Pony did deserve to win but should it of been allowed under that particular judge) No, not if they have any integrity! .. and on the other point mentioned re. losing Hoys ticket because unknowlingly produced by judge in the past, imo showing societies should be able to indicate on equine passport when and by who that animal has been produced leaving no doubt to future purchasers
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Post by teddydog on Jul 27, 2014 13:19:36 GMT
Correct bigmama if the BSPS want to use this rule then they should be made to provide the knowledge to the new owner so this sort of thing doesn't happen. I have already pointed out to them perhaps when a pony is produced its records need to lodged with the BSPS then when a pony is registered a simple print out should be given to those that register it (after all what does your money pay for!!!) . They didn't want to know when I mentioned it as it can be used to their and those in their inner circles benefit as the situation above I also mentioned they should clarify a time limit like other societies but that wasn't taken on board either again because of the above!!
Gentian good point and it's been noted by many so they will have to watch their backs pretty well!!!!
But it's so so sad that the sport that we all love and pay a fortune to be part of is now just a name game. It does seem that those in certain circles can get away with it like the guest question that started this and those of us that just don't have a bit of know how are being pushed out.
Showing has become a vile, backstabbing world and soon HOYS will become producer of the year show!!
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Post by lisa on Jul 27, 2014 13:34:49 GMT
Not under hoys rules
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Post by so true on Jul 27, 2014 16:34:53 GMT
Showing has become a vile, backstabbing world and soon HOYS will become producer of the year show!!
Very true.
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Post by happy amateur on Jul 27, 2014 19:04:36 GMT
Showing has become a vile, backstabbing world and soon HOYS will become producer of the year show!!
Very true.
Ooh dont say that we've just qualified our homebred for HOYS. Having said that the only judge to absolutely slate him on marks has been a professional who competes in the same class
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Post by amh299 on Jul 27, 2014 19:44:03 GMT
Earlier this year a judge qualified a pony for Olympia when rider had produced her ponies for years, judge's website is basically an advert for said producer, technically not against bsps rules as has been 2 years, but don't see how a HOYS ticket can be taken off one pony yet Olympia qualification stand for another?? Maybe it's time for all societies to agree on a set of showing rules??
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Post by the showing register on Jul 28, 2014 3:13:21 GMT
Very interesting thread. TSR is very much in favour of unified rules . We use the HOYS rules which seem fair and are simple and not over long. The more rules you have the easier it becomes for someone to find a loop hole it is best to keep it simple and always in the interests of the exhibitor.
The showing council is an umbrella for some of the societies but it has no mechanism to allow new ones to join at the moment so perpetuating the closed shop if it was truly representative and societies could put aside their unnecessary rivalry it would be a good place to put together a set of rules for Showing that everyone could run by. Showing will only thrive into the future if it is affordable, inclusive and run for the benefit of exhibitors .
In specific answer to the thread several years ago I quite unwittingly judged a pony that I had owned it was only when the commentator gave out its name after its show I realised and sent it out. The owners did not know I had Been part owner 4 years previously and an online record would be very helpful perhaps this could be an independent stand alone data base where you could go to check past history. To keep it cost effective owners could upload data themselves . Food for thought !
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Post by teddydog on Jul 28, 2014 6:43:37 GMT
The showing register its nice to read your post. Societies do need to get together and sort this out as it's pulling showing down and at the mo it can't afford to as numbers are depleting rapidly it's a sad state. When I started showing in the 70!! The classes where huge and we think nothing of a class of 45 plus. The BSPS stance is very unhelpful they where very rude blunt and unhelpful when they took my friends ticket away (they are one pony people totally produced and funded from home and won on merit) they where completely gutted and the rider lost all confidence they have now decided it's their last year of showing as can't stand the lack of support and back stabbing for those that are true amateurs. The rules are read to suit those that want to use a side door to obtain their tickets and the inner circle of showing protects those that are in it and helps them with these rules get what they want that's why esp the BSPS will not sit round a table with other societies and sort this out it's not to the benefit of the privileged few.
I have said it how I and many many others see. Very sad for showing
PS like the idea of putting details on a web base. It would be easy for society's when they register ponies to have a section in form asking if pony is produced and by who then has to be updated should said pony move yards all that needs doing then is when it changes ownership or is registered print out sent with cards bingo cases like above don't happen!!!
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Post by Philippa on Jul 28, 2014 6:48:34 GMT
I think the online info system would be a great idea.
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Post by volatis on Jul 28, 2014 7:37:35 GMT
HOYS rules take precedence over all society rules in HOYS qualifiers, where there is any discrepancy. They are an amalgamation of all the society rules and I would advise all competitors to read them. Nothing is worse than losing a HOYS ticket to have unknowingly broken any of the rules, but unfortunately the rules are there for a reason.
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Post by teddydog on Jul 28, 2014 8:52:21 GMT
Rules are fine as long as they apply to EVERYONE and the information should be given to people to allow them to make an informed choice about wether they do a class or not. No point in having a rule that people don't have the knowledge not to break. Society's also need to have one standard rule for all making it easier for everyone !!!!!!!! Except those that want to cheat.
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Post by Lizapeterakovic on Jul 28, 2014 12:48:13 GMT
IMO The Showing Register have it right. But until the apparent personal gain for some is removed from the equation,(and this includes as mentioned in a previous thread, judges not competing), and the various and many different Societies start to work together and share knowledge, the sorry state of showing seen over the last couple of years will not IMO improve.
You have to ask yourself why are they so afraid to work together?, what do they gain from being a "closed shop"? Surely financially it would be beneficial to work together too?
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Post by whip lass on Jul 29, 2014 15:38:49 GMT
would it not be possible to write in a ponys passport who has produced the pony .in racehorse passports all the trainers who have trained the horse are recorded.then new owners know who not to show under,
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Post by teddydog on Jul 30, 2014 6:38:32 GMT
The closed shop of the BSPS will stayed closed as it suits those few. Everyone knows this but no one has the mind to do anything about it. If the RIHS saw fit to open up their qualifiers to other societies as HOYS does then BSPS would be out of business very quickly. Nice thought. My and many others crux to is the BSHS hyjacking the Hack and Riding Horse in hand classes making people who compete in these classes become members for absolutely NO benefits what's so ever. When they where run under NPS rules there where no complaints as you could choose to be a member to compete or not and being a member of NPS does have its benefits but BSHA come along and do it uncover with many only finding out after they had entered a show for us it was Devon county we had a call telling us we now had to be a member of the BSHS!!!!!! Which they have increased membership by 100% in a year and next year you will also have to pay to register your Youngstock.
These 2 societies in my eyes are killing showing in hand and ridden why oh why can't we have a vote with our feet and join the likes of TSR that at least sound sensible and not trying to rob us all.
TSR get those RI qualifiers and you will reign
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Post by chloesmum on Jul 30, 2014 7:47:00 GMT
As a BSPS member for over 25 years, BSPS Steward and on our Area Comittee I find those comments very sad and insulting. I am not suggesting any Society is 'whiter than white' but in my experience the BSPS do take complaints seriously and ALL are investigated and rules have been changed where inconsistency has been reported. Please also remember not all complaints are justified, some are outright lies and malicious but from personal experience I can tell you they are certainly investigated. I have yet to see that with some other societies - I hope HOYS looks at ALL societies to ensure FAIRNESS and TRANSPARENCY. For me it is still the breeder network that is so hard to get past in HOYS qualifiers at least with the Ridden pony qualifiers most judges do not have ponies in the same classes and all would be too old to be competing in them! Unfortunately this is not the same in the ridden M&M classes. BSPS also opened their doors to other society judges particularly BSHA & NPS so a much wider range of judges, however most HOYS M&M qualifers come from just one society so basically the same names every year (not including TSR who again have a wide spectrum of judges). I don't have an answer, many people will not speak out because of the 'closing of ranks' but maybe HOYS could be an impartial investigator, all HOYS qualifiers are under HOYS rules so perhaps that would work.
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Writetograndstandmedia
Guest
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Post by Writetograndstandmedia on Jul 30, 2014 18:03:11 GMT
Anyone who feels that there has been blatant favours done/dodgy dealings in any Hoys qualifiers this year then please write or email grandstand media voicing your concern - I am about to do just this - they will act on any judges they feel have acted in an unfair and biased manner and they will be not allowed to judge any further qualifers.You have to include your contact details but these will not be disclosed. When you hear a Hoys qualifier for a certain breed is already sorted for an upcoming show it leaves a rather bitter taste in your mouth .
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Post by yorkshire on Jul 30, 2014 18:53:49 GMT
Unfortunatly this sort of thing goes on all the time and there is some "facey " judges out there who make a mockery of showing. We been in the game for over 20 years now and there is always a story to be told.At a hoys qualifier fr earlier this year the judge gave the pony the highest mark out of a huge class, even though the pony was not 100% sound and it then qualified.Other competitors were astounded that the pony had even been entered in the class because the childs mother was close friends of this judge and has had and produced/promoted many of the judges Darties.It was all over facebook for all to see with the mother and the judge commenting on each others posts. On the same note the majority of judges are professional enough not to comprimise their positions and this is why genuine people enjoy competitions.
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aura
Full Member
Posts: 334
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Post by aura on Jul 30, 2014 22:08:06 GMT
This is not in relation to the original op but I must say reading this thread has irritated me.
Why do so many people come on social networking sites to complain and bit*h about a judge, show, class ect rather then writing to the relevant society with thier concerns- then go an enter another show the following weekend and low and behold back on here that night unhappy with the days activities.
If you do not enjoy showing which so many people on this site don't seem to then by all means quit. As I fully belive it's the sad, Bitc*y comments on sites such as this and fb that cause most of the problems. Remove said sites and rumours would not turn into witch hunts.
No one seems to enjoy the sport anymore, just the winning.
I apologise that this has turned into a rant.
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Post by teddydog on Jul 31, 2014 6:42:01 GMT
Aura I don't think you got the point here. I haven't written anything about judges as was one myself for many years until I couldn't stand the way showing was going and the phone calls asking for favours which I wouldn't do. My grip is the society's that run showing that sing from many handbooks and have no regulated rules ie they talk to each other and decide on rules together. This is what is bringing showing to its knees and why people are leaving it in droves. Can I thank everyone for their messages I have had so many saying that they agree totally with me about the BSPS but don't want to say anything incase that get retribution!!!!! The closed circle will continue. I agree people should put pen to paper and perhaps they should write to show organisers themselves asking them to have certain society's. I for one have done that. Put pressure on RI to open up their qualifiers so it's not so closed shop run by one society so that it makes it a more even playing field. I have written that letter and would gladly help anyone who would like to do the same. The only way to turn showing in the right direction is not moaning but actually doing something about it and if you love the sport you will do it. By the way my friend above took legal action against the BSPS and sent them a solicitors letter. You can now by law have the name of anyone who made a complaint about you they have to give it to you especially if done unfairly. If it's made against the society or judge its a different thing.
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Post by honeypot on Jul 31, 2014 8:43:07 GMT
Under the data protection they must also supply any information held on computer systems they have about to you on request, keep it securely and only use it on a need to know basis.
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Post by catkin on Jul 31, 2014 13:43:51 GMT
I think the time has most definitely come for much more uniform rules. I just cannot see why this cannot be achieved. Other than that, what is the purpose of the Showing Council? Once you have one set of rules, you can then work through them systematicaly updating, improving etc. In fact the process of drawing up one list would by the catalyst. On the particular point regarding judging a produced pony, but just a few thoughts. I know for a fact of people this has happened to who really did not recognise the pony. Its not always about cheating. Does it really matter if there is now a new owner and a sufficient time period has passed? Certainly over five years ago would seem fair.
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Post by Annoying rules on Jul 31, 2014 17:56:24 GMT
If the said pony and owner had been tsr members they would have kept their hoys ticket! Why would anyone join bsps to be treated like a criminal! Ticket should be re instated. The funny thing is the judge who had produced it didn't do it any favours!!!!
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Post by the showing register on Jul 31, 2014 18:29:35 GMT
As Volatis said in an early post ALL HOYS Qualifying classes are held under HOYS rules which are also the TSR rules . It does not matter which society you join the rules for HOYS classes are the same. There is a case for GM to administer everything to do with their Q classes as they are impartial and have a keen interest in the future of showing in general.
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Post by Really confused on Jul 31, 2014 22:24:13 GMT
Now I'm really confused. There's an earlier post referring to a SHP losing it's first place and HOYS ticket as BSPS rules prohibited showing under a judge who had had a connection / produced regardless of when. Reading the TSR post ( thank you to a society for posting btw ) it seems that HOYS qualifying classes are run under HOYS rules. So does this mean HOYS also have the judge / producer rule? Or if not then why did this pony lose it's ticket or was this particular class run under bsps rules and not HOYS ?? Apologies if I'm missing a point, but you can see how confusing this all is. I vote one set of rules for every society, joined yo thinking is surely the way forward and will secure the future of showing. Thank you
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