dis
Junior Member
Posts: 82
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Post by dis on Oct 24, 2014 20:40:38 GMT
Hmmm well expelled linseed is linseed which has had the oil extracted (to waste on cricket bats...........).
Then the solid linseed 'waste' is bound with glucose (upto 10%)
Wheatfeed is a wheat by product, plus the oat by product- cereals arent ideal. molasses is essentially sugar.
for a horse likely to be sensitive id rather go for a feed without those in.
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foxyt
Full Member
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Post by foxyt on Oct 25, 2014 4:52:25 GMT
I stuggled with our section A, you could always tell his feet hurt a bit. Having successfully used the anti lam and lite chop before, I tried again for months with little improvement. We then went to a shop open day and got woowed by a rep who sold me some NAF slimline. This mixed with hifi lite (bigger bag for less money) has really worked for him. I would definable recommend it, as it's a powder so no sticky agent used to make the pellet
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Post by Gutted member NLI on Oct 25, 2014 6:24:08 GMT
Thanks everyone for the advice so far. I'm still confused with it all but I've made my decision to try the pergolide for 1 month and retest. What I'm not sure of now is do I keep her on freestep? Dis - would you definitely not feed the TS Anti lam then??? Do you feel it's a lot of sugar in it?? If so would I be better on the freestep for vits & mins? Or is there another supplement you or someone may advise?!! Catkin - I'm glad it's not just me who is confused by all this. It's a minefield.
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foxyt
Full Member
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Post by foxyt on Oct 25, 2014 6:50:14 GMT
The NAF slimline has good mix of vits and minerals
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Post by LinsopStud on Oct 25, 2014 7:32:58 GMT
I'm always wary of TS I don't find the feed in general half as good as the hype claims but that's just my personal preference/experience, I know a lot of folk swear by it. I would give Andrea a call at FreeStep but can't imagine there's a problem keeping her on that as a lami preventative because it is purely plant based so shouldn't interfere with the drugs. Lots of luck with your mare, really hope there's a happier ending for you.
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Post by LinsopStud on Oct 25, 2014 7:36:15 GMT
(Also recommend hi-fi lite - as I mentioned I don't have a Cushings problem but my boy lost his weight on a feed of hi-fi lite, a balancer (supplement based not feed based as the feed/pellet balancers often have a lot of sugar and a binding/bulk agent such as ash and charge a fortune for the privilege!) and FreeStep.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 25, 2014 9:20:06 GMT
Catkin - I think you need another talk with your vet. I'm not one as you know, but I do know that some oldies can have trouble digesting protein so need a low protein diet - maybe this is in his/her mind? Protein in itself is not implicated in causing laminitis, in fact alfalfa is accepted as a useful feed for laminitics because of its very low sugar content and because it provides good quality protein for growing healthy new feet. Maybe on your old hay, although it's fine for his feet, he's fatter than the vet would like, and if he has fat pads derived from whatever feed they are hormonally active so not a good thing, they need keeping slim. He would of course be able to put weight on by digesting the fibre in the hay.
dis - I've never used the linseed lozenges, which I assume are the same thing as expeller, so haven't gone into them, but wheatfeed is essentially bran and oat by product the equivalent from oats, both the high fibre husks where the starch and sugar is in the grains. No feed is ever completely without anything, so I never say none of anything, and you'll notice the feed companies don't either as I think it's impossible! The important thing is to be aware of actual quantities and choose appropriately. I think there's a very good case for vit/min powder supplements, but they don't provide the essential aminoacids (ie protein) than may well then be lacking and are necessary for all tissue repair so this must be provided elsewhere in the diet. When choosing a chaff do look at the actual ingredients, they always used to use lots of molasses to bind the mixture together and I expect some still do. No good if it's all straw and molasses even if still lo cal, to give an extreme and doubtless non-existent example!
attylinz - just because it's plant based doesn't necessarily mean it won't interfere with drugs - I'm not allowed to drink grapefruit juice because it interferes with one of my pills! Many drugs were developed from plants in the first place anyway, the classic example is aspirin from willow. This is just a general point, I have nothing at all against FreeStep but hugely support their work.
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Post by fanfarefan on Oct 25, 2014 10:44:55 GMT
Gutted , at this point in time i would be inclined to phase out the free step , so that when you retest you have a clear and positive result as to whether the Pergolide has been effective ,as regards the vits and mins , once you have retested your vet should be able to supply you with a supplement that will supply all the essentials for a cushings /lami animal , ours has just started on a vet supplied supplement which is high in all the B vitamins, which are good for being antioxidants, shes been on it for about 3 weeks , and is moving like a dream.Im not saying give up on the Freestep , if it works for you thats great , but you dont want too many things confusing blood test results,,, the other thing is , it that its always easier to start with a clean sheet , and introduce things one at a time , that way you know which , does and doesn't work, good luck
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Post by Gutted member NLI on Oct 25, 2014 12:00:29 GMT
Again thanks for the advice everyone. It's a case of not being able to see the wood for the trees at the moment.
FFF - thank you, I'll stop the FS as of now. 1st tablet administered today - here goes xx
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sarahp
Happy to help
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Post by sarahp on Oct 25, 2014 13:10:10 GMT
I can see that! Very sensible suggestion of FFF's though.
Good luck.
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Post by Norris on Oct 25, 2014 16:45:38 GMT
If it were mine I would give bute on small amounts trun away for 3 months if doent come right then rethink .
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Post by fanfarefan on Oct 25, 2014 18:04:01 GMT
The trouble though Norris , and im not being critical , is that with Cushings and EMS is that grazing is VERY restricted , so its not just a case of turning them away , they become very labour intensive , trying to amuse them whilst in confinement , small amounts of light exercise ,trying to get them to adjust to a different regime , and unfortunately they dont just come right , its on going for the rest of their lives, you do have to adjust yourselves aswell, especially if you are on a livery yard , but you deal with it , you have to
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Post by Gutted member NLI on Oct 25, 2014 23:34:11 GMT
If it were mine I would give bute on small amounts trun away for 3 months if doent come right then rethink . If only it were that simple. Unfortunately if I turn this pony out for 3 months I'm likely to kill it!!! When you've struggled for over 3 months to get something sound and back on track from lami the last thing I'm going to do is turn her out in a field for 3 months. A few hours in the pen with a grazing muzzle on is as far as its allowed to go at the moment.
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Post by chalky284 on Oct 26, 2014 8:22:21 GMT
If you're looking for a simple feeding plan, I would use formula 4 feet, spillers high fibre cubes, speedibeet, hi fi lite. Soak your hay as you have been and see how you get on with the pergolide. I would want more clear instructions and discussions from your vet and though similar I would want to know if you're looking at cushings (PPID) or EMS. Sounds like your giving your pony a try which is great let us know how you get on!!
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sarahp
Happy to help
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Post by sarahp on Oct 26, 2014 8:33:08 GMT
They may present similarly, but have different causes and require different drugs, although those with Cushings may have EMS as well.
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Post by ilovenatives on Oct 26, 2014 11:37:22 GMT
Spillers high fibre cubes has molasses in and so does hi fi light . They do a hi fi molasses free and also the only nuts I could find without molasses are the dengie alfalfa cubes that are purely alfalfa . I found that our vet although knowledgeable about EMS didn't know a great deal about what foods contain molasses so I did a bit of research myself and reading bag labels . With our boy who had EMS we had to accept that he had to be kept to slim for showing I'm afraid . You may find that it will take a year free from laminitus attacks to get yours sound as they need to grow healthy hoof horn .
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Post by Fat is bad on Oct 26, 2014 12:17:04 GMT
I think people can over look a good old fashion turn away. I did what Norris suggested, turned my boy away in a field with a herd, as the grass was not short he got limited amount of fructin and 6 years later I have not had another bout of Lami and he is fit as a fiddle with strong hoof growth. I do not feed hifi lite as it has sugar in it, I feed the new Dengie which is as sugar less as you can get and Fibre beet with a bit of hay and some magnesium. When his lami was active I also fed him bio yogurt as this promoted the hind gut. Now my boy is not on medication and is managed purely on diet, my vet and farrier have said they wished owners would follow advice like I did. With regards to the OP you will not be able to put weight on him unless you medicate him for the rest of his life then you can manage the disorder through this so he can serve your purpose. I prefer to manage it via the weight of my boy and again as I have said he has been lami free! Take your pick from the advice offered here all of it is relevant its just which path you wish to go down can determine your horses health. Good luck and hope he becomes pain free soon xx
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Post by catkin on Oct 26, 2014 12:54:58 GMT
yes, SarahP I think I do! The pony hasn't any fat to speak of at all on him. Has always been very muscular anyway. So, no fat pads. I did query (as you can imagine) this at the time and he just didn't make sense to me. The nearest I could get to understanding was perhaps the calories in the protein were not required. Fair enough. I have to say, I have largely ignored the feeding advice. I just refuse to starve the poor pony. He has no excess fat and is sound, so until proven otherwise I will keep going as I am. And, would you believe, I was recommended a well known feed used for laminitics containing lots of molasses! Again, I have ignored this and the pony is having something else entirely. I don't have a mud patch and far too much grass at the moment. If I shut the pony in our school, he jumps out, so he does have to be in a lot more than I would like and is having plenty of hay.
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sarahp
Happy to help
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Post by sarahp on Oct 26, 2014 13:25:04 GMT
Well excess protein is metabolised to provide calories instead, but they do need sufficient quality protein to rebuild good feet. I must admit, if what you're doing works well for him why change it?
My lovely chocolate pony jumped out of my sand school the other day to get with the others, fed up of being in fat camp - 3'6", I measured it. Not bad for an 11.2 Welsh A. She was OK while she had a friend in with her, but I'd just moved friend out in the middle of a big shunt round.
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Post by fanfarefan on Oct 26, 2014 14:31:03 GMT
Fat is bad ,whilst i commend the route you took with your pony , and with an EMS/laminitic pony this regime can work ,,,,, but with cushings , in my experience , they can get laminitis even without touching a blade of grass , and the only route really is to take the medication one , because its note diet fuelled !!!!! ,stress , foot trimming , worming , annual jabs can all set a cushings animal off with laminitis again ,obviously diet is very important ,and over the years we now feed all of our animals as if they were laminitic , along with a good appropriate balancer or vitamins
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Post by catkin on Oct 26, 2014 17:22:52 GMT
ah interesting, fanfarefan. My pony (recently diagnosed and now on drugs) had been manageable until he had his flu jab. I am going with the medication as I do feel it has really improved things for the pony and trying to feed as sensibly as I can. SarahP - dear Spike cleared a gate well over four feet high. Oh I do love a section A!
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dis
Junior Member
Posts: 82
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Post by dis on Oct 26, 2014 17:46:52 GMT
I would avoid the pellet type balancers and feed a powder based one. Why risk feeding anything that will potentially cause harm, even if its a small amounts. Pro balance has a decent spec so does metaslim. amino acids can be fed by choosing other feeds.
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Post by fanfarefan on Oct 26, 2014 18:05:31 GMT
Catkin , we only came across this scenario with the flu jab 2 yrs ago , when said pony , who has had many ups and downs , was on an even keal in the July , and then had her flu jab , and within 24 hrs was crippled for 6 months with lami , she went to hell and back , but this pony has more than a will to live , she is incredible , and even the vet cannot understand how after what she has been through is still here , but of course the flu jab is a live vaccine , and when they have Cushings their immune system is compramised, and she just couldnt fight the jab , and battle commenced,,, i also believe that the length of daylight hours have an effect , especially with mares , and that summer time is a going to be when they are most prone to cushings/lami , i only say this as our pony never goes out on the grass in the summer , and the slightest imbalance can trigger lami for her
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Post by catkin on Oct 27, 2014 12:51:32 GMT
Interesting stuff fanfarefan. To be fair, I don't think my boy is anything like as advanced/severe as your pony. I hope (and pray) I have caught him before things got out of control. I have just got him in from a couple of hours at grass and its so lovely for him to be able to be out, albeit for a limited time. I am going to be really interested to know his count after the first few months on the drug. Interestingly, I think I may have held him off on the daylight bit as he is in a barn with another pony that had the lights on until mid Oct to keep her coat. I am convinced that daylight has far more effect on them that we realise. Far more effective to keep the lights on than rug and rug!
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Post by fanfarefan on Oct 27, 2014 13:07:14 GMT
absolute mine field !!!!! , the only thing i can say is that in the winter she never goes lame , why we dont know , but we learn something new just about every day with her
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Post by julie1967 on Nov 1, 2014 14:06:57 GMT
I am not sure if this is the correct spelling but someone who has a old horse on my yard feeds chaseberry for cushings I do not no all the details of how much etc but you could perhaps google it good luck whatever you choose to do
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Post by jennipenny on Nov 14, 2014 12:48:01 GMT
Hi I haven't read all the posts so sorry if what I am going to say has previously been mentioned x.
We have to ponies both with cushings x. We found that ponies stopped eating when on the treatment for cushings and dropped a lot of weight... What we have found though is when feeding "milk thistle " supplement. ( the main ingredient in most cushings supplements ) That there has been a big difference. There appreciate is back they are Sound , drinking less and a much better coat '! I would certainly say it's worth a try. And it's only 9£ a bag ! X.
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Post by jennipenny on Nov 14, 2014 12:49:42 GMT
Also to go with the milk thistle our ponies are fed hi fi life a small amount of speedibeat along with a sprinkle of garlic. But plenty of hay ledge. X. They look brill condition and are both aged ponies in the late teens x.
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Post by clifton on Nov 14, 2014 13:19:16 GMT
if you haven't already done so please look at the Turmeric User group on facebook, many horses are on Turmeric for laminitus and cushings
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Post by Gutted member NLI on Nov 25, 2014 7:22:51 GMT
**UPDATE**
Well we are a month on from starting on half a tablet, pony has been totally sound in this time and had feet reset twice with no problems. We went to vets on Wednesday for bloods, the results came back yesterday at 21. That's 70 lower than last time and over half the recommended level for Cushings!!!! Yippee. So we are now reducing meds to a quarter a day and retesting in 6 weeks.
I can can see the light at the end of the tunnel, the only thing I could now do with is to speak to a feed company regarding where to go from here, she is finding the hifi lite & speedibeet a little monotonous, but I'm still unsure as to who to go to?.
To to say im over the moon is an understatement I've just had 6 months of hell with her.
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