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Post by advice please on Oct 31, 2014 15:24:50 GMT
If horses are grazed 24/7 on very good grass and look well but not fat as ar ridden is there any need for suplplementary feeding at all ? its seems a minefield out there with the range of supplements and feeds available. But are they ok on grass alone, ie will this provide a balanced diet
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Oct 31, 2014 17:13:56 GMT
All mine are on just grass and/or hay and out 24/7 unless they have to come in for any reason, currently just the weaned foal and his nanny.
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Post by welshiegirl on Oct 31, 2014 18:41:51 GMT
Just studying this at college, a common miss perception is that grass is enough. Just because the grass looks good doesn't mean that the nutrients and minerals a horse needs are within it, looks can be deceptive. It Ll depends on the type of soil, the field management of the paddocks etc. the only way you'll know for sure is to get your grass tested, as nutrient/mineral deficiency can't always be apparent.
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Post by welshiegirl on Oct 31, 2014 18:48:16 GMT
Here is an article by Hermione Perry MSc equine nutritionist In Britain, the majority of horses have access to plentiful grazing, and as the most cost effective and readily available feed for horses it is easy to understand why many leisure horses are given grass alone, especially during the summer months. However, the horse may appear to be blooming on the outside, but is his paddock really providing him with everything he needs? Horses evolved as grazing animals and therefore grass has always provided a major part of their diet, but in the wild, horses travel considerable distances to forage and consume a huge variety of herbage. The modern horse kept in an acre paddock, and sometimes even on a ‘starvation’ paddock has a much more restricted diet than his wild counterparts. We may feel that we are providing him with the best possible care, but it is interesting to consider how fit and healthy our native ponies look in the harsh climates in which they live. It is often only when these ponies are removed from their natural habitats that they develop such conditions as laminitis and sweet itch. So are our native ponies actually getting something which the modern horse lacks? And is our modern day pasture really meeting all his needs after all? We all know that variety is key when giving ourselves a balanced diet, and the same goes for our horses. However, most modern paddocks provide very limited plant species. It is also difficult to calculate the nutrients his grazing is providing as this depends on so many factors. The time of year is obvious, as we all know the grass is richer during the summer than winter, but the season will also alter the mineral and trace element content. The species of grass in the pasture will alter the protein and energy content, and the part of the country and thus the mineral status of the soil affects the mineral content of the grass. How the grass is managed will also affect on its nutritional value. It is also important to consider the horse you are feeding – a youngster or broodmare will have greater needs than an adult, a horse in hard work needs more than an animal at rest etc. Therefore the proportion of your horse’s daily requirements met by his grazing depends not only on the grass he is eating but on his age and lifestyle as well. Grass Species In theory, the most fertile pastures can support five, 500kg horses per hectare (approx 2.5 acres) from grazing and conserved forage. Where as a poorly managed paddock may only support one horse. The most productive swords contain at least 30% perennial ryegrass, with rough meadow grass, cocksfoot, timothy and other meadow grasses such as fescue and Yorkshire fog. The proportion of clover depends on the use of nitrogenous fertilizers and grazing pattern but it can be as much as 25%. The stocking density is generally correlated with the amount of ryegrass in the sward. – the greater the concentration of ryegrass the more nutritious the pasture and the more horses it can support. Time of Year Within any pasture the nutritional quality varies from area to area and therefore the feeding value of the pasture as a whole depends on the stocking density and the most palatable herbage at any one time. The protein content of pasture is directly correlated with rainfall, and inversely with soil temperature during the growth period. In the UK, the greatest yield of digestible energy and protein occurs during May and June, and from then on this declines particularly from July and August when the grasses flower. Re-growth of succulent leafy material occurs in autumn, but work with sheep suggests that this may be utilized up to 40% less efficiently than spring grass of a similar chemical composition. The time of year will also affect the mineral content of the grass. A preliminary study performed by Jones, Lax & Holland’s of Dodson & Horrell Ltd showed a significant difference between the mineral content of pasture in the spring (March – June) and the summer (July – September). The aim of the study was to determine whether grass would provide a balanced diet for growing thoroughbreds, and if the season would affect this. They discovered that summer pasture contained considerably less copper, zinc and phosphorus than the growing stock required, which could have serious detrimental effects on musculo-skeletal development if not rectified by a feed or supplement. With the exception of potassium and magnesium neither the spring nor summer pasture provided adequate minerals for growing thoroughbreds. Vitamins, Minerals & Trace Elements: In the UK, a calcium deficiency is unlikely among grazing horses even when the ground is poor. In the summer when the ground is parched, the horses will firstly be deprived of water, then energy and protein followed by phosphorus. Horses can become deficient in calcium, phosphorus and magnesium if they are confined to wet, acid soils covered by poor quality grass. Horses seem more resistant to low magnesium than cattle, but a fall in serum magnesium of lactating mares is possible. One of the reasons for low magnesium has been blamed on the increased potassium in the lush herbage which grows in the spring. The trace element content of grass depends on the trace element content of the soil and it therefore varies naturally across the UK, with clay soils tending to have the highest levels. When waterlogged soils are correctly drained this tends to increase the availability of selenium and zinc but may reduce the availability of iron, manganese, cobalt and molybdenum. Individual trace elements may be deficient or even toxic in some parts of the country. For example, poorly drained soil in Somerset, Ireland and some parts of Devon may lead to copper deficiency which can be identified by loss of pigmentation particularly around the eyes (sometimes known as ‘spectacles’). Soils with a high rainfall, acid pH and water logging often produce selenium-deficient pasture which is sometimes blamed for muscle problems such as azoturia. The Welsh and Scottish borders, north Cornwall and Shropshire are most prone to selenium deficiency. Sandy soil, such as in Newmarket is also selenium deficient. Applying minerals to the soil to correct a trace element deficiency is usually not practical and therefore a targeted supplement is usually the easiest and most cost effective method.
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Post by welshiegirl on Oct 31, 2014 18:48:29 GMT
Grass Management As a horse owner, there are a number of practices you can employ to improve your horse’s pasture. Harrowing – harrowing grass in the spring will help to aerate the soil and remove dead and matted grass which is clogging up the base of the plants. It is import to help the air to reach the root ball to encourage good grass growth. Harrowing will also spread any droppings which are remaining on the paddock. The benefit this may have on parasite burden is questionable, but spreading the droppings is an effective way of keeping the grass palatable and preventing patches being left due to tainting. Fertilizers – many horse owners are worried about applying nitrogen as it is associated with the rich pastures needed for dairy cows, and brings concerns of laminitis for horses. However nitrogen is essential as it is vital for healthy plant growth and it is leached out of the soil by heavy rainfall in winter. There are special slow-release fertilizers available for horse specific pastures. Rolling – particularly when performed after fertilizing will help to push the nitrogen into the soil. It also helps to encourage leaf growth as it gently crushes the growing shoots so that secondary shoots take over. More leaf is produced and combined with the nitrogen this will trigger greater growth earlier in the year. Topping – horses are fussy grazers and can leave patches which they find unpalatable (particularly if the droppings are not removed). Topping the pasture to a length of 10 – 15 cm will prevent these areas from going to seed and allowing poor quality grasses to take over. If cattle and sheep are kept these animals should be grazed on a rotational basis as they will eat up the areas left by horses and also help to break the worm cycle. Conclusion It is difficult to obtain accurate and representative pasture analysis but it is fair to assume that if your horse is having no hard feed or supplements whatsoever it is likely that his diet will not be providing a balance of all the vitamins and minerals. This is particularly crucial for pregnant mares and growing young stock who’s demands for minerals are so much greater. With this in mind, the use of a mineral lick will give you peace of mind that your horse has access to everything he needs. Animal Nutrition 20 Mar. 12
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Post by highlanderlass on Oct 31, 2014 19:14:35 GMT
Mine are out on 11 acres of rough grazing, they still get their Lo-Cal, chaff and supplements, it seems to work for them.
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Post by brindlerainbow on Oct 31, 2014 19:20:42 GMT
Thanks Welshiegirl, lots of interesting info there I keep a Welsh section A aged 22, a section B aged 5 and a RP aged 3 on 2.5 acres of what I would call poor grazing. Mine have been fed all summer, the section A and RP on Top Spec conditioning flakes and Top spec grass and the section B just on Top Spec grass. All have brewers yeast in their feed plus they have access to a salt lick. From Mid August they have been having a section of hay a night each in addition to their 1 feed a day. None of my ponies are over weight but look well, although the section A is starting to show his age and is not as well covered as I would like him to be going into the winter. Once the weather turns colder ( very mild in Devon at the moment!!! ) they will have access to a round bale of haylage 24/7. I think my ponies are getting what they need from what im feeding them. I also regularly through the summer give them fresh cut nettles, goose grass and comfrey. Their stables are always bedded down and the doors are always open so they can come and go as they please. Would also like to say that i've never had a case of laminitis
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Post by welshiegirl on Oct 31, 2014 20:34:19 GMT
As it says in the article, the Przewalski ponies left to graze on what us showers would consider "rubbish" tend to be the healthier ones, getting all the nutritional value. By us messing around with the grass, nitrogens etc it affects the feeding and nutritional value of the grass and again as the article says just because it looks good doesnt mean it is good. Something as simple as a salt like could help to provide the vitamins and minerals they're missing
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Nov 1, 2014 7:27:50 GMT
Thanks for all that welshiegirl. I've given brief details of my own lot above, but now feel I ought to expand a bit in the light of what you have said!
My soil is officially a sandy clay loam with an old but still efficient system of clay land drains. I keep a purely grazing flock of sheep used for grass management and worm reduction purposes only and currently have plenty of land for them and my breeding herd of Ds and As. The ponies are constantly being moved and remixed to give appropriate grazing for different sizes, ages and sexes etc of ponies as the grazing in each individual field changes. Youngsters, especially the Ds get better grazing, and mature As, which do spend time in fat camp off the grass from time to time, the least.
As for the grazing - to a farmer it would look dreadful. It is managed to reduce ryegrass as much as possible and maintain variability of species, never weedkilled and has small copses and thriving mixed hedges so plenty of different species of both grass and other plants available to the ponies. It is harrowed and rolled in the spring, and topped to prevent weeds such as thistles seeding, but never harrowed in between as spreading the droppings beyond the long patches just enlarges the patches left ungrazed as horses won't graze over their own droppings. If done when damp, it also spreads any worm eggs over a wider area; it only works to reduce them if done in hot sun which dries them out. I try to graze the sheep over a field when I move the ponies out so that they graze the patches down, and always the sheep are the last to go through a field before shutting it up for the winter. I don't fertilise, only spread the muck from the stables which is very little, one field out of 9 done every 2/3 years. I do check the pH every few years and correct when necessary though.
I do try to keep a mineralised salt block in the fields with ponies, but don't stress too much over it if they finish one. My ponies remain very very healthy and recover from minor things quickly on their own without intervention from the vet, I expect them to have strong immune systems. They have good coats and skin, clear eyes and strong hoof horn growth. I also expect them to maintain condition throughout the growing system without any extra feed, and if one doesn't, assume that it has some health problem that needs sorting out. Even in a drought when there appears to us to be nothing to eat on a field they hold condition - remember that what they do get is very high dry matter. They do of course have a constant water supply so do not go short of water. It would not be practical for me to bucket feed my lot while they are out at grass, anything that requires either individual feeding or medical treatment (or fat camp!) is removed from the herds and brought to the yard to deal with. Interestingly, I bought an old stallion a year ago with severe depigmentation who has now regained his original colouration - his grandsire (not with me but I knew him) had it too.
For completion, when I do bucket feed any I start with a balancer and the rest is fibre and oil based with no cereals or molasses of any sort, so no mixes.
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Post by welshiegirl on Nov 1, 2014 12:11:35 GMT
very well said Sarahp! xx
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Post by CarolineNelson on Nov 1, 2014 16:37:44 GMT
As it says in the article, the Przewalski ponies left to graze on what us showers would consider "rubbish" tend to be the healthier ones, getting all the nutritional value. By us messing around with the grass, nitrogens etc it affects the feeding and nutritional value of the grass and again as the article says just because it looks good doesnt mean it is good. Something as simple as a salt like could help to provide the vitamins and minerals they're missing :) Welshiegirl, you should be well on the way to a PhD if you have digested the excellent article from your mentor! Let's hope that others will take the trouble to read the quoted article. The crux is - in regard to the Przewalski 'wild' horses - that they had 1,0000's of acres in which to roam and self-select. Unfortunately, finances and logistics dictate that a greater proportion of today's animals are retained in 'enclosures' which will obviously become starved of vital nutrition if drained of resources and not allowed time nor given 'assistance' to replenish. Both SarahP & Brindlerainbow have carefully explained 'their way' which, with sufficient acreage and utilising knowlegeable & practical management, works extremely well in their situations. Beware of some posters who say simply 'I use this xyz product, it works brill for me' . . . All situations are different. The most difficult scenarios are those such as, indeed, SarahP's and BrRainbow's, with a diversity of ages, Breeds and needs. As often happens due to circumstances, I've moved a few times around the UK and each time have encountered totally differing nutritional values and deficiencies. Coupled with having at full show livery, animals of differing Breeds, types and upbringings, not only from all areas of the UK but from as far afield as the Eastern Block & the Middle East; the latter where almost all nutrition is, of absolute necessity, 'false'. Massive learning curves, to create the best possible nutritional environment for all grazers (even recreational grazers!) - and that includes my fussy 'lowland' Suffolk Sheep. If considering using grazing as an integral part of the daily ration, you have to be very savvy. However, for relaxation for our poor Equids, access to the great outdoors is paramount, as I've mentioned in the 'recreational' sentence above. But, for the most part, we have stripped the Equid's ability to 'self select' as the wild mammals of our forefathers could, which can only be a retrogade step for future 'managed' generations.
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Post by mcnaughty on Nov 15, 2014 8:02:34 GMT
No, I do not believe that grass is enough as far as a full spectrum of minerals and vitamins. I have a welsh a that lives out all year round and I give him a cup of balancer a couple of times a week.
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Post by Guestless on Nov 18, 2014 17:05:05 GMT
Most of my ponies live out 24/7 all year round but they are on rough grazing with a broad variety of shrubs and plants that they eat as well as grass. I no longer supplement their feed during the summer unless they have worked hard but they do get ad lib haylage in winter when a lot of the plants have died back and the grass is IMO poorer quality.
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Post by sometime on Nov 18, 2014 21:21:11 GMT
I have 4 ponies on 4 acres all tend to get fat if allowed so they are fed year round on soaked grass nuts and supplements but I use very little hay as it doen't agree with their tummies so they live out 24/7 going onto standing foggage over the winter in the summer they are on a track system on short well grazed grass so they always have food going through the system but dont have rich grass they stay on the grass year round the only rested grass provides the foggage in winter the summer grass is the same stuff they have grazed all winter so is never longer than a well mown lawn The lose weight in winter lots of weight but they are then able to stay out on grass all summer without risk of dietary problems like laminitis and ems gaining weight for the next winter. This time of the year they are fat by April they will be slim
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justliloldme
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Post by justliloldme on Nov 19, 2014 4:35:56 GMT
you used to be able to get a hand fed block biscuit like a treated called pasture plus, which was fed from the hand once a day to pasture fed ponies, removing the need for buckets that had vitamins and minerals in it, not sure if still made now x
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justliloldme
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Post by justliloldme on Nov 19, 2014 4:40:31 GMT
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Nov 19, 2014 7:15:59 GMT
I won't feed mine from the hand for the sake of their manners, so that's out! Before I learned better I used to use the feed blocks in plastic tubs, then discovered the perils of molasses which they were mostly made of so stopped those. Then I found compressed bricks of feed which I just threw into the field, but very expensive so I gave those up. Currently just on mineralised salt blocks on top of their grass/hay.
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Post by welshiegirl on Nov 25, 2014 6:51:08 GMT
How about the Lucibrix company??? you could buy those in bulk and they have different ones for what your horse/pony needs, the lucibrix are only a pound a block xx
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Nov 25, 2014 8:20:53 GMT
I'll have a look, but really after micronutrients if anything rather than feed - I use the winter for slimming them down so they don't need extra calories. They sound like alfalfa so a good source of protein so could be useful for the growing youngsters rather than the adults.
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Post by Guestless on Nov 25, 2014 17:25:08 GMT
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