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Post by Toaster on Nov 24, 2014 13:02:08 GMT
I have just looked at Mickey Gavin's website, having never heard of him, and he works the way I would but with far more experience, he reads really great. If I was in your shoes I think I'd try to go and watch at one of his clinics if at all possible. Honestly I went to one of his clinics as a spectator and still get enthused just thinking about it. The participant's horses came off their boxes, bolshy, pulling, ignoring people, inattentive or just plain disrespectful. He had everyone stand still in a small hoop while holding their horse for ages pretending to get everyone concentrating on the herd in the field behind, he gave information about the horses and where they fitted in the herd dynamic then talked about the woodland and the importance of a horse that can hack out and it was only at the end of this did he draw people's attention to their horses, this group of 'problem' horses were chilled out and stood quietly - the aim of the exercise was to be a constant to the horse (eg in this case by not moving) and the logic being when your horse knows where you are and what you are doing he will be much calmer Everything that Mickey demonstrated was useable day to day, no showboating for the sake of it, no showing off, no name dropping or expensive products to buy - just concentrating on the people and their horses
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 29, 2014 18:41:57 GMT
Still working on the ground with him, slow progress hes so lazy its hard to get him going forwards with long reins and on the lunge. He needs a stick of dynamite up his socks !
I need to get him thinking forwards, any ideas ?
On the plus side stable manners are hugely improved and hes responding well to voice commands and staying out of my personal space more
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Post by gillwales on Nov 29, 2014 20:49:40 GMT
tie a plastic bag to the end of a stick and shake. Make certain that voice commands are solid for both going forwards and coming back down.
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Post by brindlerainbow on Nov 29, 2014 21:02:56 GMT
I would ditch the draw reins,need to get him going forward and listening and focusing on the job in hand first
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Post by Guestless on Nov 29, 2014 21:20:43 GMT
I would ditch the draw reins,need to get him going forward and listening and focusing on the job in hand first Definitely - and I have to say I would NOT be using draw reins on a horse that is inclined to rear as IMO they may just encourage that behaviour. Forget about where his head is and work on forward, forward, forward.
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 29, 2014 21:44:54 GMT
I'm tired typing mistake, I haven't had draw reins anywhere near him. I've been lunging and 'long' reining him.
But its hard keeping him going and motivated when he's so backward thinking and lazy, I'l try the bag thanks for that, I've been trying the smacking my own boot to make a 'thwack' noise but within a couple of goes doing it he quickly realised it wasn't scarey and stopped reacting which is probably what'l happen with the bag after a while
He's so laid back, nothing bothers him so its HARD motivating him forwards
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Post by dogandbone on Nov 29, 2014 22:35:03 GMT
As a general rule, loads of transitions is a great way of getting more forward thinking motivation. Walk 4 strides trot 6 strides walk 5, trot 4 or what ever sequence you feel like, and keep changing it. Then intersperse it with allowing a half circle at one pace, or maybe even a whole circle just to allow forward freedom, some cantering too of course - I am sure you get the idea?! It takes a while to get the change in pace if they are really lazy, but if you can get some one to help with a clap of the hands behind him, and / or a crack of the stick or any different noises, it becomes much more like a 'fun time' rather than just work on the lunge or long reins AGAIN!! Even pick up a handful of sand or school surface and chuck it at his hind legs or quarters to startle him into forward movement. Then lots and lots of praise!
Variety is definitely the key to wanting to please and finding work fun rather than boring. He has probably learnt in the past that he can get out of doing something he doesn't feel like by rearing and running for it. Perhaps he was ridden and worked harder than he could manage, mentally and physically when he was being broken, and being a stallion his domination became his 'get out'
I really admire your determination, and I truly hope you succeed, though I have a feeling he may always have rearing in his "Tool Box" if ever he felt the need throughout his life - You did want to keep him forever didn't you? Lol!!! Good Luck, I hope this helps
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 29, 2014 23:11:21 GMT
A brilliant read thank you dogandbone. I honestly think once we've found the key to this/him he'l quickly figure out he cant get away with it and pack it in. Hes not a bad lad
The only time I've seen him keenly going forwards is with a jump. Before we stopped riding him we popped him over a few poles and small jumps for fun, nothing difficult. He LOVED IT, his ears pricked up at the top of the school and he attacked them. I think he'd love to hunt, but he's a year off physically doing that even without the other problems. But it does fire him up and even if the stride was wrong he figured it out himself and pinged them. So I'm wondering how I can use that to help
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Post by Guestless on Nov 30, 2014 0:06:03 GMT
I'm tired typing mistake, I haven't had draw reins anywhere near him. I've been lunging and 'long' reining him. I've edited your other post so no-one else jumps on the same bandwagon as brindlerainbow and I did
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Post by Philippa on Nov 30, 2014 1:12:24 GMT
A brilliant read thank you dogandbone. I honestly think once we've found the key to this/him he'l quickly figure out he cant get away with it and pack it in. Hes not a bad lad The only time I've seen him keenly going forwards is with a jump. Before we stopped riding him we popped him over a few poles and small jumps for fun, nothing difficult. He LOVED IT, his ears pricked up at the top of the school and he attacked them. I think he'd love to hunt, but he's a year off physically doing that even without the other problems. But it does fire him up and even if the stride was wrong he figured it out himself and pinged them. So I'm wondering how I can use that to help Can you long rein him over poles too?? Might be something different for him. Variety is key.
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Post by sjw87 on Nov 30, 2014 8:51:02 GMT
It does sound like the key is getting him going forwards - they are less likely to rear if going forward properly.
How does he respond to your 'energy'? Using a whip, throwing arena surface at his legs, using a plastic bag etc is all designed to startle him to go forwards rather than encourage true energy. It sounds as though what is happening is as soon as the 'startle' is done, forward is lost. Use body language to encourage him to go forward, poles, loose jumping, anything that he enjoys.
When he is going forward consistently on request, I notice you said in your first post that he long reins out of the yard ok. In that case, I'd be looking to long rein out, mount and ride back. Go with what he can cope with and don't push him until he is ready for the next step.
All the best with him.
Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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Post by brindlerainbow on Nov 30, 2014 9:39:23 GMT
Why not bite the bullet and take him hunting. He is broken and riding and plenty of 4 year olds hunt. This would definitely get him going forward and it sounds from your posts that he is lazy and disinterested in his work, hunting would sweeten him up You don't have to stay out all day and if he is naughty then just bring him home but it could just be the making of him. It could be that there will be so much for him to look at and take in that he doesn't have time to mess about
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 30, 2014 10:15:23 GMT
It does sound like the key is getting him going forwards - they are less likely to rear if going forward properly. How does he respond to your 'energy'? Using a whip, throwing arena surface at his legs, using a plastic bag etc is all designed to startle him to go forwards rather than encourage true energy. It sounds as though what is happening is as soon as the 'startle' is done, forward is lost. Use body language to encourage him to go forward, poles, loose jumping, anything that he enjoys. When he is going forward consistently on request, I notice you said in your first post that he long reins out of the yard ok. In that case, I'd be looking to long rein out, mount and ride back. Go with what he can cope with and don't push him until he is ready for the next step. All the best with him. Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards I'm sure forwards is the key ...we've just this morning loose jumped him over a few poles and jumps and he was charging at them, it really does fire him up. Everything else is a slow dead slog, quite often he just grinds to a halt with me leaping about making noises to get him going forwards again Maybe I should rethink getting him out hunting this year brindlerainbow. I ruled it out because hes not finished growing yet, but maybe the benefits outdo the concerns plus he could go with a stable mate who hunts most weekends
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Post by brindlerainbow on Nov 30, 2014 11:54:35 GMT
Definitely go for it, he will still be growing at 6 You have nothing to lose and it really could be the making of him. Im a great believer in hunting teaching them to go forwards,jump,learn to balance themselves etc. Most Irish horses have done a seasons hunting by the time they're 4 . Also if he's going with a stable mate you will at least have someone to give you a bit of moral support if needed
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Post by CarolineNelson on Nov 30, 2014 14:58:21 GMT
Definitely go for it, he will still be growing at 6 You have nothing to lose and it really could be the making of him. Im a great believer in hunting teaching them to go forwards,jump,learn to balance themselves etc. Most Irish horses have done a seasons hunting by the time they're 4 . Also if he's going with a stable mate you will at least have someone to give you a bit of moral support if needed Agree 100% - great advice. BUT, you really must "go for it" and enjoy the hunting and the day. Naturally, not being sure who you are with (what area /Pack etc) its difficult to advise, but, put on a neckstrap, think 'tally-ho' - indeed, be 'gung-ho' paying due consideration to the Master, Staff and the 'Field', of course.
Best to phone the Master and/or Huntsman in advance and advise that you may have some 'issues'. A green' ribbon in his tail wouldn't go amiss, (that is, hoping the 'field' will understand the genuine meaning!). Above all, You and your friend with his stablemate enjoy the day and ensure that he really does. After all, he may end up being a great hunter / jumper /WH - and simply not be cut out to be a 'tame' show horse. Is that such a problem?
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 30, 2014 18:08:11 GMT
Ok hunting we go, i'l find out locations this week luckily our area coordinator is a friend and they meet just up the road from us quite often
Working hunter was the aim anyway Caroline so nope not the end of the world luckily, a good friend and producer who is great with difficult/awkward types is popping over this week to meet him so it'l be interesting to hear what she thinks too
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Post by sjw87 on Nov 30, 2014 19:23:32 GMT
Sounds ideal, please keep us updated with his progress :-)
Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 30, 2014 21:09:35 GMT
I will, the advice on here is brilliant. Maybe one day it'l be a success story with pictures :0)
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Post by CarolineNelson on Nov 30, 2014 21:45:23 GMT
I will, the advice on here is brilliant. Maybe one day it'l be a success story with pictures :0) Great stuff.
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Post by mcnaughty on Dec 1, 2014 9:53:21 GMT
Have you thought about taking him hunting - I was always of the opinion that rearers need to have their brains switched to 'forward forward forward' mode and this may help??
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Post by Guestless on Dec 1, 2014 17:26:46 GMT
Have you thought about taking him hunting - I was always of the opinion that rearers need to have their brains switched to 'forward forward forward' mode and this may help?? Lol, I'm assuming you didn't read the full thread
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Post by Philippa on Dec 1, 2014 18:40:18 GMT
I used to hunt the 3yr olds which had come out of flat training and were going into national hunt training. Wouldnt worry he is only 4, im sure you dont plan to slaughter him for a full day twice a week!!
We hunted the Zetland which is 'big' country, but I used to have a ball on the babies, they were often more confident than the old stagers. Great fun ahead of you im sure.
Just sit and kick!!!! lol
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Post by mcnaughty on Dec 3, 2014 11:28:44 GMT
Ah .... no I did not - great minds and all that! Hunting should help - you dont have to hammer him all day long. Just an hour or so regularly should help.
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Dec 3, 2014 12:03:50 GMT
Well I've decided on the nearest meet which is literally a 5 minute walk down the road and on a lovely day
Christmas Eve :0) !
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Post by Philippa on Dec 3, 2014 13:25:39 GMT
Good luck.
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Dec 22, 2014 19:19:05 GMT
The Christmas eve hunting idea has been put on hold for now hes just not fit enough, but things are progressing well. His manners are already so much better, he loves us and wants to please. He hasnt been ridden out alone since I last posted but hes thoroughly enjoyed hacking out in company and popping logs and ditches, on top of that we've ridden him in the school and had the odd bit of backward behaviour but nothing too serious. We may of stumbled onto they key, he annoyed me with one of his in the school little flair ups - he decided he'd had enough so reared and spun around. I had a flat whip like the jockey's use in my hand so I donked him on the head with it, right between his ears. He didnt like that, and came straight down and worked well. Similar happened the next time so I 'donked' him again and hes not tried it since We'l hunt him after Xmas when hes a bit fitter, in the mean time hack him out in company when possible, and keep the schooling to a minimum but try to make even that fun with a few poles and jumps
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Post by rosefinch on Dec 23, 2014 20:57:17 GMT
I bought a fell stallion in spring very similar to your boy! Used to frighten me to death. Used a chiifney on the ground - only needed this a few times and then a hoe when lunging. Makes them work long and low and pulls when they lift the head up. Lots of variety, trips out with others, stallions need to be kept guessing and as Sarah p says they need to know you are the boss. My boy loves jumping to, I would keep up with the hacking and get him out to different places as much as you can. Also reward the good behaviour! Feed after good work etc .
Sounds like you are on the winning side already xxx good luck
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Post by cayo on Dec 27, 2014 10:26:54 GMT
I had one did just the same years ago he was fine first few weeks then once settled in behaved pretty much the same as your lad ,after finding riding him forcefully and giving him a clout didnt work in fact made it worse i took to leading him out and riding him home ,then leading him out getting on and riding as far as he would go with out napping if he stopped i just got off lead him a bit made no issue of it got back on rode again ect ect, he got better and better we got on nearer and nearer home rode further and further without any naps took several weeks but we eventually just got on in yard and rode off ,he was great,always took carrots to treat him when he was being good took time and patience but paid off , i didnt push him out of his comfort zone although remained the boss just tried to avoid the napping and rearing issue arising when he felt under pressure .only difficult one i have had to do this with but it certainly worked for him .
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