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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 20, 2014 20:49:49 GMT
I fell in love with a horse on-line a 4 year old section D, the owner was lovely and very honest about him. She said he'd napped a few times but if ridden forwards he was fine, I asked if he hacked out alone and again she was honest and said ' no we have too many so go out in small groups usually'
This horse was for me too so a mother/daughter share, I was a capable jockey who competed and evented in my past so didnt mind green, novicey etc and my daughters a darn good fearless jockey
First few weeks he was fine, we took things slow with him and only rode out with others. We took him in the indoor school about week 3 and left the doors open for more light and he was out, with my daughter on. We led him back in but out he went again, rearing up and nearly taking her knees off - lesson learnt, keep doors closed
Now hes settled and been with us a few months its getting worse and worse, hes fine out in company but will not hack out alone, he wont even leave the yard. This chap isnt nasty hes like a toddler, so I'm being honest here he got a darn good whallop - no effect, I even had the lungeing whip out - no effect. He goes up vertically, if you put leg on -up he goes, if you try to turn him- up he goes, smacking has no effect at all.
So back to basics, back check, saddle check, teeth check all fine
Ride out in company and make him lead/go behind /mix it up - all fine he goes well and happily either way. Long reining out alone -goes well, lunges with doors open - goes well, responds to the voice well
Right so in a nut shell, the problem is i'm flummoxxed with what to do next. The biggest worry is when he does this he has no self preservation and doesnt care if theres a car, a hedge, a wall in his way he'l go up verticle then tow u off in the direction he wants to go. We arnt the kind of people to give in BUT I'm worried, I wanted something for my daughter to have fun on, I wanted something I could hack out every now and then. This boy isnt bad and we're not novices but nothing seems to help, its just his way and hes being honest a bit thick !
If he comes over on my daughter il never forgive myself even though she has her stubborn hat on and refuses to give in. Friends, professionals, people I trust have all said get rid. But we like him and hes stunning
Am i missing something before I give in? Being fair on the previous owner she has said she'd take him back with a full refund so this isnt a gripe against a horse we've bought
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Post by bow1607 on Nov 20, 2014 20:57:58 GMT
Have you tried sending him away for a few weeks?
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Post by ponymum on Nov 20, 2014 21:03:07 GMT
I think you should either sell him or return him . As you state , you aren't novices , but some ponies cannot be fixed, and it sounds like he is one of them . I'm sure as a Mother , if I was in the same position i would do the same. You would never ever forgive yourself if he hurt her , or another person who might just be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Don't beat yourself up about it , It comes down to the old saying..."it costs as much to keep a good 'un as a bad 'un "
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 20, 2014 21:04:30 GMT
No I havent yet - but I am talking to and have contact with a few people very experienced with 'difficult' - for two reasons 1) he'd probably be fine in the short term as he was with us b) i cant afford to send him away for 2-3 weeks which is what it'd probably need for them to see the problem
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Post by chalky284 on Nov 20, 2014 21:13:34 GMT
Firstly I'd like to point out I'm certainly no expert and I'd not have the confidence you've got to deal with a horse like yours, you sound like very caring and sensible horse owners. But as bow has said I'd be inclined to send him away, to an IH expert who can fathom his reasoning for his behaviour!
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Post by bubbles1822 on Nov 20, 2014 22:12:11 GMT
Does he rear in the school alone?
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Post by daisycutter on Nov 20, 2014 22:22:13 GMT
I would take the previous owners offer send him back, as beautiful as he may be you cannot put a price on your daughters safety.
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 20, 2014 22:22:14 GMT
Only if near the door ...we school him at the other end (to encourage the good behaviour) but if he gets near the door he rears up at it closed
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Post by sjw87 on Nov 21, 2014 8:05:36 GMT
Whereabouts in the country are you? I wouldn't send him away personally but there may be someone locally to you who would come out and assess/work with him.
I'd be very wary of who as they could send him over backwards if not experienced enough but there are good people out there.
Also, when he long reins out on his own, is this in full tack?
It's good that you've got the option there to send him back but it sounds as though you really want to keep him.
Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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Post by gillwales on Nov 21, 2014 8:09:37 GMT
Return him asap,
He may have had a head injury that even his previous owner was not aware of, I base this on experience, I had a lightweight hunter from a foal, he banged his poll when a 2 year old, after he was broken he would nap for no apparent reason, he was sent to some of the best trainers in the country, none could cure him, more recently I had a foal who has banged his head and fitted, my Vet advised he was pts which was the course we took, I then realised why my hunter had behaved the way he did, I should add that eventually he started to "go" for people, we did not have the knowledge then that we do now. Send him back.
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Post by brindlerainbow on Nov 21, 2014 9:38:04 GMT
It sounds like you have tried everything. You are obviously experienced riders/horse owners and im not sure sending him to someone else will do any good. If you were novices then yes but as you aren't then im not sure anyone else would be able to crack him either. A pony I was breaking/schooling carried on like this and was sent away to someone else to have a try but with no improvement. After vet's did lots and lots of tests etc it turned out she had a brain tumour and was PTS. Most horses do have some sense of self preservation but when they don't then in my opinion they are just too dangerous for the ridden job.
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 21, 2014 9:45:05 GMT
I'm still mulling things over. I'm torn between handing him back now and my daughter hating me for life, or throwing him out for winter then starting all over again with him in the New Year, take him back to basics.
He was cut late only 6 months ago, so maybe time out to finish maturing (hes still bum high) is worth considering.
Your right I'd never forgive myself if anyone especially my daughter was hurt or worse by him, but I do hate giving in and feel theres a nice pony here who I still havent sussed. Hes gentle in the stable, loving, kind easy to do and care for. But hes backwards thinking, hes lazy and from what I can gather from the previous owner he had a rough start to life which is why hes numb to the whip now, hes switched off to it.
I could winter him out, save up and maybe send him away to someone in the New Year. Someone recommended and given all the facts and see what they think?
Ahhhhh brain fug, being stubborn isnt a good trait at times like this
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Nov 21, 2014 9:59:33 GMT
It's often difficult with horses to tell if there's a physical reason or if it's just bad behaviour. I had a mare years ago who started napping badly, turned out she had a cyst on an ovary the size of a football. She was operated on but we lost her, anaesthetics have moved on since then.
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 21, 2014 12:46:20 GMT
Well its all changed a bit, she cant afford to buy him back but is trying to find someone she knows and trusts to come and see him for another opinion. Cant say I blame her it has been a few months since we bought him
So I need to sort this and not pass the problem on
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Post by Philippa on Nov 21, 2014 12:57:52 GMT
What a shock!!! Miraculously now theres mention of him going back she cant afford him, thats convenient!!! Sorry if I sound cynical but ive heard all the stories. I feel for you but what price do you put on safety??? I would rather your daughter be peeved at you and get rid rather than her be faced with the possibility of a horrific injury or worse, you say yourself you would never forgive yourself and rightly so. You wouldnt put your child in the middle of the road in the hope a bus didnt hit her so why put her on a nutter of a pony? ? I have had rearers as a child, 2 in particular which I dealt with as I was a gutsy jockey and would ride anything!! Im not so gutsy now at just gone 40 with a 3 yr old child, im not afraid to admit it, I want armchair and slippers if im going to ride (the section A & SP of my daughters every now and then to tick over are quite suffice!!!!) I also have seen the aftermath of a rearer going over and injuring my mother badly when I was just 10 years old. Im with the others on this one who say get rid, cut your losses, really its not worth it and ponymum quoted my favourite phrase "it costs as much to keep a good un as a bad un"
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Post by brindlerainbow on Nov 21, 2014 14:46:31 GMT
If the old owner won't take it back then I would say PTS, don't pass it on otherwise it could injure/kill someone. As I said in my earlier post a vertical rearer with no sense of self preservation is not for the ridden job. If you wanted to keep it and just show it in hand then fine but no horse is worth the safety of the rider no matter how nice it is.
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 21, 2014 15:01:00 GMT
You're all going to pile in and tell me I'm stupid but just like with kids I dont believe in bad horses, I believe in bad upbringing or something has happened to cause the problem. I will not put my daughter back on him, but neither will I give in. We own one at a time usually for years till we need something bigger, this time it was finally something for me as well. We've never yet owned an easy pony because we dont have the budget for one. I cant afford to right this boy off plus I dont think he warrants it 'yet'. If I have to spend the next 12 months walking him in hand round the roads and villages I will, I'l lunge him, long rein him, anything and everything and finally I'l be the one to get back on him when I feel its right
Now I know he cant go back the decisions made for me so any help or advice or strategies to try, please post them all up ! I'l try the blooming lot BEFORE i give up
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Post by anotherone on Nov 21, 2014 15:52:05 GMT
Needtoberealistic, we are having the exact same problem, now our pony is with a trusted person and she has done wonders but she didn't give up and has had a physio over to see him, and they are pretty certain that all the symptoms, (rearing, napping, grumpy) could possibly be down to Gastric ulcers, and when you read up on some stories of people with horses who have ulcers, their behaviour have been exactly the same, not sure if this is something you have thought about, our boy has just started on supplement for Gastric ulcers, and it's just a wait and see, but it's worth you thinking about this being as a possible cause?,
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Post by Philippa on Nov 21, 2014 17:19:37 GMT
You're all going to pile in and tell me I'm stupid but just like with kids I dont believe in bad horses, I believe in bad upbringing or something has happened to cause the problem. I will not put my daughter back on him, but neither will I give in. We own one at a time usually for years till we need something bigger, this time it was finally something for me as well. We've never yet owned an easy pony because we dont have the budget for one. I cant afford to right this boy off plus I dont think he warrants it 'yet'. If I have to spend the next 12 months walking him in hand round the roads and villages I will, I'l lunge him, long rein him, anything and everything and finally I'l be the one to get back on him when I feel its right Now I know he cant go back the decisions made for me so any help or advice or strategies to try, please post them all up ! I'l try the blooming lot BEFORE i give up Fair play to you and I admire your determination, I rode dodgy ponies all my childhood and thought it was marvelous but being older and wiser I dont have the time, inclination or balls for it now. I hope you get this pony sorted, he obviously is worth the battle to you. I can only speak from my own experiences and I stand firm that I would never keep a rearer. Good luck, I hope one day he really does you proud as you will deserve it. XX
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Post by not logged in on Nov 22, 2014 0:44:20 GMT
I really feel for you , we had a horse once who was a sweetheart to ride she was great for over a year then suddenly for no reason she started to nap which over a short time escalated into a rear , we had the lot checked as you do teeth back tack etc, all fine, the behaviour ridden became worse , nap then vertical and all of a sudden and couple of rides no bad behaviour at all , we decided to give her some time out in the field just to chill for a few weeks , then winter set in so the horses were coming in at night , at first she was fine bringing in turning out then one day she just went , bolted off while being led in running blind all round the yard with no regard for machinery tractors cars etc, then 5 mins or so later calmed down , and just ambled towards her stable as though nothing had happened, this concerned us so teh follwing day we were wary of turn out but we did and nothing , then a day later same again running off from being led and running blind all over the place then calm again minutes later, this went on for a few more days then one day in her stable she started to bang her head repeatedly on the wall till it bled then calm again we called our vet immediately , he took blood tests which came back the follwing day with liver damage likely caused by ragwort which we later found out she had grazed in ragwort earlier in her life before we got her, he advised her be pts there and then as liver damage can effect any organ and with her he said t was her brain causing her to have these incidents which were getting more frequent and more dangerous... I am with you totally that a horse is not born bad and yes they can be nappy if they have had bad treatment from humans but trust can be rebuilt but more often than not an underlying physical reason beyond the usual teeth back tack checks we do , and there are many and they cant talk and diagnostics can be so expensive and at times inconclusive at first as you could be dealing with so many things.One thing I recommend is a starting point of a full body thermal scan will cost you £100 for the whole body , it can show up sites of pain so you have a starting point in discovering a physical cause maybe ? its so hard .. to unravel , Im rambling here but horses cant talk and generally are biddable creatures who will put up with a lot of pain before it even starts to manifest itself in behvioural issues , some interesting points made here re gastric ulcers Ive learned something today. If I were you I am not a quitte with a horse either, I would do ground work wearing a hat at all times and go right back to square one as if the horse wasnt even backed , start again and do it slowly and for time... if the problem is physical .. he even may start to show bad behaviour from the ground , if not and its a learned fear reaction from past experiences then he may just start to chill learn to trust and in time come right... but anything bad physically should manifest in bad behaviour in ground work too , I hope not for your sake, but I certainly wouldnt be riding anything that rears vertical , until time has passed and you are totally confident in good behaviour on the ground, it also wouldnt harm to give time off he is only 4 after all , then start again , badly treated horses can in time with patience overcome fear and bad habits drawn from fear, but if its physical in time you will also know as sadly like what happened with our mare these things dont get better but worse. I wish you all the luck in the world that you can get this horse right, but please dont ride him for a long while until you are sure he is cured of the habit an dits not a physical pain reaction.
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 22, 2014 20:51:01 GMT
Thank you so much for the reply's, I'm chewing everything over and taking all the comments on board. I had a mare with gastric ulcers and she was crabby in and out of the stable, her mood was dictated by I think the uncomfort she was in, this boy doesnt fit that bill, or to be honest a pain related one. The reason i think this is ridden out in company hes perfect, hes bombproof and happy, this guys ears are always forwards even when hes being 'naughty' his behaviour is never malicious its more like a toddler having a tantrum. Its only when we ask him to go out alone the napping rearing starts. In the stable hes kind, hes a real people person and prefers your company to other horses. Hes playful and funny, he likes to pick the brush up and brush up for you, he'l pick anything up off the ground to shake it about, hes a right character. Feet fine, our blacksmith already adores him and says hes one of his easiest to do. As I said before if the indoor school door is open and my daughters on him, hes out and theres NO STOPPING HIM. So I've been lunging him in there for the last few days, he tried it once and I cracked the lunged whip (didnt touch him with it) and he shot forwards and didnt try it again, same tonight he lunged beautifully fully tacked up with doors open and me almost encouraging him to 'do his thing' and he went perfectly.
I think the ridden thing politely speaking is his form of taking the 'michael' Hes strong, stubborn and a bit backward thinking, he doesnt respond at all to a whack, or leg, or direction. Noise he does react to so interestingly I sounded out a friend who works for a to racing trainer and asked what they'd do with a horse like this. He surprised me, I thought he'd say 'bray it to death' but after explaining all the detail he said 'braying it wont make any difference, its obviously been capped at some point in its past so its now numb to it'' he then asked if he responded to noise which he does, so he said 'go that route on top and when you sit on him' he suggested using the whip on you're welly - hard. So that it makes a THWACK noise, if he shoots forward let him and praise him was his advice
Lots of things to think about, I'm chewing them over night after night. If though at any point I even suspect this could be physical i'l get the vets involved. As well as the back/teeth/saddler checks I do have a Bowen therapy lady local to us who has been out a few times to check him over for me, she said he shows no tightness or pain anywhere.
Please keep posting with suggestions xxxxxxx
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Post by Toaster on Nov 22, 2014 21:37:25 GMT
If its at all an option could you send him to someone like Mickey Gavin, this chap is amazing and has acres of safe hacking land to work the horses, he actively encourages the owners to visit each weekend after the first couple of weeks to work with both rider/s and horse together so they end up a good safe combination He also does home visits, he is based in Lincolnshire/Notts he uses what we would call 'natural Horsemanship' techniques but with a good dose of sticky bottomed Irish horseman and a massive dose of common sense He isn't cheap but I would trust him 100% with my ponies truehorsemanship.com/wordpress_6/If Mickey isnt an option I would still recommend finding help
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 23, 2014 18:27:46 GMT
He does sound amazing, thank you Toaster but sadly hes a fair way away from us. I've bookmarked his web page in case I need it later.
I lunged him again today with tack on and the indoor school doors open to tempt him and he didnt put a foot wrong. I then spent another 10 minutes leading him around and past and again he was foot perfect. We then worked on voice commands to halt, walk on and rein back which he doesnt like doing but today he was backing up to voice command only.
Small steps
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Nov 24, 2014 10:18:34 GMT
First off - do please be careful if/when you get on him. It won't help your daughter if anything major happened to you.
Rereading you next post up before the last, I wondered if the way I work with my foals would get through to him? Most important - lots of praise when he does what you want, that's much more important than telling off, and a growl to do that, no more, vocally, when needed. A scratch where he likes it best, often just behind the wither as that's where his dam would have done it, and your voice telling him how wonderful he is when he's done what you want. I use a rope halter on the foals, and work using a pressure/release method to get them very light in hand forwards, backwards and turns on the forehand. The object is to show them by doing that life is much more pleasant when they do what you are asking, the reward being release of pressure on the head from the halter and praise from you, I'm sure there must be stuff on the internet explaining the system in detail. And you need to be very clear that when you're doing anything with him he has to behave all the time, no quarter is given to mine however young but manners are required at all times. They have plenty of loose time in the field to do their own thing. From weaning they learn to step back in the box before their feed bin is put down, and they have to stand, just for a few seconds, in the box before being led out, no rushing past or they get taken back in to do it again, hopefully correctly this time. Hopefully you get the picture, although it sounds as if you're working that way already.
Good luck.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Nov 24, 2014 10:23:28 GMT
I have just looked at Mickey Gavin's website, having never heard of him, and he works the way I would but with far more experience, he reads really great. If I was in your shoes I think I'd try to go and watch at one of his clinics if at all possible. I've seen Monty Roberts working, and Richard Maxwell and learned from both, and I have a good friend who is absolute magic at that sort of stuff, she has wrinkles I've never seen anyone else do and I've learned a much amount from her. I think we all work out our own systems of working with horses to some extent - some of what I did years ago has come round later with MR labelled join up but I never rationalised it as such, just found it worked so did it again!
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Post by nici on Nov 24, 2014 10:31:31 GMT
My daughter had a little Shetland pony who we bought and backed as a 4yo. He was a fab fun pony until the year he turned 6, then suddenly he became the pony from hell if ever we took him away from home. I lost count of the number of times he ditched Cerys - he wasn't far from the ground so was never hurt! He didn't rear, with him it was mainly putting his head down and snatching the reins, and if she tried to hang on, she rolled off down his neck - she was only 7yo. He was mainly ok at home but a monster if we took him out. So that summer we just rode him in our field, where he was generally well behaved and taught Cerys to jump. We then turned him away for winter. During that winter he must have grown up mentally, because the following year he and Cerys had the best time together ever. Sadly at that point she was growing too tall for him so he went on loan to a little boy who took him hunting, and had a brilliant season with him. He's now been sold on to another hunting / PC home, giving a little girl the best possible introduction to hunting. He will occasionally still snatch for grass, but is generally very well behaved for his little jockeys. Hard to believe it's the same pony who was such a monster as a 6yo.
Funnily enough his full brother, whom we also owned, went through the monster stage as a 5yo, when he was almost unrideable. Again after a winter turned away he came good the following Spring, although was never a small child's pony like his brother.
Turning away isn't always the answer to problems, but in my experience it can help. Our 4 yo, bitted and backed this summer and ridden for about 6 weeks, is now out for winter. He was almost too good to be true when we were backing him - I just hope the opposite doesn't occur in his place - I'd hate him to turn into a monster when we bring him back into work in February!!!
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Nov 24, 2014 10:53:39 GMT
If you watch a herd of mixed age horse, the youngsters are always bottom of the pecking order. At some stage, they deem themselves grown up and ready to take their rightful place as an adult in the order - naturally some are more submissive than others. I wonder if it's something like this going on? Failing that, just an attack of the teenage Kevins!
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 24, 2014 11:43:09 GMT
Brilliant to read thanks everyone, I'm collecting ideas and tips and jotting them all down. As I said in my first post he was only cut in April of this year and soft as he is he does still show some stallion behaviour - he poohs in a heap not scattered, hes quite dominant in the field especially if theres food about and he'l nip if you dont watch him. I dont like smacking horses on the head for nipping so like sarahp said a growl or a loud AH! stops him in his tracks. Yes to teenage Kevin, I totally agree with that, as I keep saying this boy isnt bad hes actually a big softy but hes stubbornly dominant - if that makes sense - like a toddler, never nasty, ears always forwards.
I'm also considering his feed, and what diet may help best. At the moment hes in at night with unlimited hay and 2 small feeds at either end of the day of chaff/balancer/ and conditioning cubes.
Advice on me riding him out in company? Hes bombproof, happy and willing with that so I'm mulling if on top of the work in the school and as above being deadly strict about manners ect on the ground if I should mix in some hacking with others to encourage the 'going out is nice' and its not all boot camp??
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Nov 24, 2014 12:03:44 GMT
It can take a LONG time for them to lose the stallion stuff, still no excuse for bad manners though! He should still respect you in the field, I've found that facing them and jumping up and down going boo usually turns them away. A Richard Maxwell tip for nipping - if you have long fingernails stick one in his muzzle when he goes to nip but completely without comment or other reaction - the idea is for him to think he did it to himself. I don't have long ones, but do use the end of a key for the same purpose - it needs to be something sharp enough to be unpleasant but no more, and blunt enough to do no damage. I use the same technique for one that tries to run its shoulder into you when leading, or otherwise barges and invades your space, they must respect that.
I'm getting a fuller picture now - you need to make sure he regards you as his herd leader. No playing games with him, just kindly demand obedience and respect. It's often a question of using your brain for strategy for getting him to do what you want - after all humans are more intelligent than horses, and then praising and doing something he finds rewarding. ie give him the feed immediately he stands back and not before - and then leave him alone to eat it in peace.
Feed looks fine to me in principle, a general rule is to avoid starch and sugar, ie basically cereal and molasses so check the ingredients, both can fizz them up and predispose to insulin resistance. There should be a white label sewn into the seams of any feed you buy in bags giving the actual ingredients in decreasing order of quantity, you don't always get the full story from the manufacturers' blurb. Chaff can often have molasses in so check that, and many makes of conditioning nuts but not all contain cereal.
Totally agree with hacking if he's fine with it, just make sure you are as strict with him doing what you want - eg make it clear when it's fine to lope along on a long rein or when he's expected to work a bit. Ride every transition as if you were doing it in a dressage test, no sloppy ones. I assume from what you say he's OK hacking out with mares? In my experience intelligent natives can get very bored working in a school and are better schooled on hacks anyway.
Mind you like many on here I'm still not keen on rearers, sorry.
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Post by NeedToBeRealistic on Nov 24, 2014 12:51:35 GMT
Thanks sarahp, hes fine with us in the field just bolshy with the other geldings, he even sees us as his and will charge at the others if they try to come over to say hi when hes there, then his clumsyness and darn right bad manners can show up as he he'l bowl you over to charge at them ! So I'm working hard on we have a circle around us that hes not allowed in unless invited. I'l try the the muzzle trick for the nipping, I dont think the biting is badness its almost I think him being affectionate, he nuzzles you and sneeks in a friendly nip.
All feed is low sugar, molasses free chaff, low cal balancer, and yep I thought the same use the hacking in company to reinforce what we're doing in the school and on the lunge. Hes fine with mares no different so thats a plus. When we were riding him hes very lazy and numb to the leg so I've gone back to basics with the voice commands on foot and will use those when I get back on him again to see if that helps. He has the attention span of a gnat and gets bored easily so I need to make sure I get the balance right between being firm yet making this ridden lark fun for him
I dont like rearers either sarahp I much prefer a good ole bucker, but thats what I've managed to get and I cant now pass the problem on or just give in
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