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Post by dogandbone on Dec 12, 2014 15:07:06 GMT
Just wondering what your thoughts are on the opinions in Showing World this month about Native Stallions Showing under saddle, by three judges?
Do you agree (as suggested by one judge) that their competitive career under saddle should be very brief, and they "should get back to the breeding paddock" ? Do you agree that bad conformation in a stallion should be penalised more heavily in the marks, than the same conformational fault in a mare or gelding?? - Surely a fault is a fault, whatever sex, I would suggest IMO!
Do they dominate the top of the line up, just because they are stallions?
I am not wanting a slanging match of judges and their opinions, - purely the content of the article, promoted by Lizzie Briant.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Dec 12, 2014 15:37:13 GMT
I must go and read it. Mind you I do think in general that they should only be left entire if they are to be used for breeding, and if you want a riding only horse it should be a gelding. I did put my money where my mouth is as my own two D stallions had short careers under saddle, just enough to show what they could do, and then went back to breeding.
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Post by chloesmum on Dec 12, 2014 17:25:47 GMT
I think there has been a lot of 'discussion' on the article on Facebook (but I don't do that!!) so my opinion - I thought it was an interesting article having shown stallions; geldings and now a mare! I do think there is a tendency for some people to think they must have a 'stallion' and I think there are some out there that would be better gelded, as they will never be used for stud. I thought Debbie Spears made a really sensible comment, she said ' when I am judging I ask would I want to use this stallion to breed from?' and I think that is so true. A stallion should be a great representative of breed type, but the same goes for a mare and gelding of course but you know what I mean!, so no I don't think they should be 'more' penalised. I also think people should think about quality of life for a stallion, if never used for breeding and only showing are you resigning it to a sad, lonely life when older? Sometimes I think people keep a stallion entire for their benefit not the pony's. We had a young Dartmoor Stallion who was so stressy when at shows we had him gelded when he was 5 years old and he immediately became a happier pony, qualified for HOYS Open and FR and now has a fantastic life, however Jacob (our C) is 16 years old and has covered most of his life, with a couple of seasons off for showing only and it would be totally unfair to geld him now just because he is not showing at top level. He behaves no differently at a show to at home and he can of course still cover,but I do feel sorry for him as he is on his own at home (because we only have 2 stables and small paddocks) but hopefully we will eventually find him a friend to have at home, but will always have to be turned out on his own. I think temparment and quality of life should be considered along with 'is this a good representative of breed' - the lovely Moelview Chieftain who we were lucky enough to show this season not only covers but has the most amazing nature and is a true gentleman in the show ring, qualities that would certainly encourage me to use him as a stallion. Do stallions always come out on top? Interestingly the C we won BOB with at Olympia is a gelding! So I think all should be judged on their own merit regardless of gender but yes I do think there is a 'must have a stallion' trend but perhaps more with competitors than judges. Maybe we will update this thread this time next year after a season with a mare!
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Dec 12, 2014 17:40:26 GMT
My Olympia BoB was a mare!
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Post by viking on Dec 12, 2014 18:09:06 GMT
Yes to all of those.
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Post by chalky284 on Dec 12, 2014 18:18:52 GMT
I've not read the article, though I'll try to do so. My observations as an amateur in native showing are that there has been a rising trend in the showing of stallions. This has reached a point at which many showing enthusiasts are buying colts/stallions to "give them a better chance of winning" and a perceived easier route to HOYS etc Is this facilitated by the judges though? I've witnessed myself, stallions being placed above better standard mares and geldings, then that could open up the old "the judge has placed who the rider is rather than the horse" can of worms!
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Post by sjw87 on Dec 12, 2014 20:08:32 GMT
In theory, if stallions have been kept entire for the sole reason that they are an excellent example of the breed then they should be at the top of the line.
That shouldn't mean that a mare or a gelding shouldn't beat them if they are a better example as the mare can also be used for breeding purposes and the gelding may well be an excellent example but been gelded as either not intended for stud or circumstances of the owner (eg at livery). It should be actively encouraged to geld if the horse is not going to be used at stud.
The problem is, people see stallions winning and think they need one in order to do well. Some judges (such as ones mentioned above who place poor stallions above good mares/geldings) really don't help the situation. It's also far too easy to buy a colt and it will be cheaper than a filly. IMO, if a breeder thinks that a colt will not be stallion quality, they should geld it before selling it but with breeding not being lucrative and the market being so poor, I appreciate the difficulties this would impose.
I think that stallion owners need to seriously consider the welfare of their stallions both now and in the future. What happens when it is 20 or if an injury causes it to retire earlier? If it's not top quality to be able to retire to stud then it's unlikely to have a good quality of life in retirement as very few people want field ornaments, especially not if they are entire.
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Post by honeypot on Dec 12, 2014 22:41:08 GMT
I like to see a stallion ridden because it shows trainability and the ability to do a job, I also like this in brood mares, which is what I am looking for. It could be a superb example of its breed( in the judges eyes) but if none of it offspring are any good what is the point of it? I have seen M&M stallions at shows, one was a Willowway pony, stood at the side of the ring beautifully behaved enjoying the view with its human family. I think the in hand people are more guilty of keeping stallions and colts in conditions of isolation, I bought a four year old colt that had never been out with other since it had left its dam but it had been shown consistently since a foal.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Dec 13, 2014 7:31:18 GMT
it is of course entirely possible to geld them as adults, I've done a couple here. One A boy has sired fantastic stock for me who have variously been placed RWAS in hand, the Picton Final ridden and as an IH gelding but as I only have a small stud, don't stand stallions at public stud, don't breed to sell and had retained three daughters I decided in his best interests to geld him, which I did and he is now lent to a friend for her son to ride and has a lovely life. Some may say a waste but what was the alternative? I've heard of too many stallions, especially unbroken As, being sold and resold after a few years when their daughters are of covering age to end up in unpleasant places and he didn't deserve that. I do know of a D who was a top class sire who was gelded in later life when he lost his fertility so that he could live happily out with his daughters.
Picking up honeypot's theme - some years ago I bought back a colt I'd bred and sold at weaning. He was 3yo when I bought him back, and while I don't know how he had been kept, I came to the conclusion from his behaviour that he must have been shut in a stable and hardly let out, and if he was, it was on his own. He was VERY stressy, weaved and banged his chin on the box door, was adept at letting himself out of the box and totally unsocialised with other horses in the field. I have never bred one that behaved like this before or since, including lots of full and half siblings. He was immediately gelded, and always known as our "Special Needs" pony. He did improve a lot with suitable management, but was never comfortable with other equines in his space, which made standing in line at shows and going hacking in company a bit interesting sometimes! He was also the only pony I'd known who didn't want to follow the field out hunting.
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Post by sjw87 on Dec 13, 2014 8:26:05 GMT
it is of course entirely possible to geld them as adults, I've done a couple here. You are quite right, it is possible and as a responsible owner it is what you would do and have done. However, the cost of gelding at an older age is often more than the pony is worth (especially if it's not the best example of the breed) so people often don't want to spend money on them to geld them. I have also heard on numerous occasions when the owners are seriously considering gelding, vets to really try to emphasise the risks of gelding late as opposed to the benefits and ultimately talked owners out of gelding their older stallions which I think is extremely irresponsible. Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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Post by comanchediva on Dec 13, 2014 9:41:13 GMT
Our Fell Colts and stallions go out with company every day and are very well behaved and well mannered both at home and at shows. Three of them are licenced with the FPS and the other two will be licenced next year. They are all excellent examples of the breed or we wouldn't dream of keeping then entire. We don't know how their futures will pan out but with the Fell gene pool being so small we believe it important to help keep good examples of the breed entire. They will all have a ridden and hopefully some a WH career and then see what happens. We don't keep mares ourselves but we have already had interest in our oldest stallion who has also done some dressage and a tiny bit of showjumping which he loves.
If we didn't have our own place we couldn't keep them like this and its no fun having 6 in at night all year round but the pleasure we get from them outweighs everything else.
We never ever go to shows expecting to do well because we have an entire on the end of the lead and have been beaten many a time by quality mares and geldings.
Also if a judge places a stallion at the top of the line who doesn't deserve to be there that's not the stallion owner's fault but I do agree that at some levels of showing some judges can't see past a stallion in a class of mares and gelding.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Dec 13, 2014 10:21:23 GMT
Fells are rather a special case because they are rare, and have the additional hurdle of the nasty recessive gene to deal with so as diverse a gene pool as possible needs to be maintained. I speak from a background in Welsh breeds, which are anything but rare!
sjw87 - I see your point, but I feel we have a responsibility to our stallions when we no longer need their procreative powers. What are the alternatives? As far as I can see sell and risk them going downhill as I mentioned above (and I'm not just talking mediocre ones, I've come across examples of fantastic breeding stallions going through sales) or have them pts. I agree re vets although I personally have never come across this attitude, mine have been happy to do them once they had told me of the risks - and all have been done at home too, all without incident although I have witnessed how much care has been taken, particularly to make sure bleeding has stopped. Yes it is more risky but the benefits for the animal are huge and surely outweigh those? Just a thought, but I wonder if vet colleges, if asked, would do them cheaper as a learning tool for students? I know they sometimes do in cases of retained testicles.
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Post by sjw87 on Dec 13, 2014 10:44:07 GMT
I totally agree with you sarahp and that's the point I am getting at - unless stallions are lucky enough to be owned by someone responsibe enough to get them gelded, they will most likely end up pts or even worse, at a sale.
In your case, you know of the benefits of gelding so despite the risks involved with gelding at a later age, you have made the right decision. However, for those people who really are only just starting to contemplate whether to geld or not, vets focusing on the risks can make those owners put the benefits to the back of their mind and greatly influence a decision to keep them entire unnecessarily.
I would love to see a subsidised gelding scheme (like cats protection have for neutering cats) to see breeders able to geld colts that aren't stallion material and encourage responsibility to geld those who aren't of top standard. Sale rooms are full of weedy colts that are then 'rescued', often kept entire as the cost of gelding is considerable more than they paid for said colt and then eventually will either intentionally (or unintentionally as often these kind of people don't have the right set up to keep mares and colts safely apart) cover a mare or filly and will spread it's genes. There will always be the odd auction buy that will turn out to be a cracking example of it's breed but most of them are simply not.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Dec 13, 2014 11:12:53 GMT
My vets know I'm a well informed, stroppy old bag capable of making my own decisions so wouldn't try to push me in a direction they knew I wouldn't go! Sadly the relationship between vet and owner isn't always like that, I do understand that.
I agree re a subsidised gelding scheme, but in the current climate pigs will fly first, it would be so expensive to subsidise to a level that would make a difference. At least WPCS have put the stallion licensing fee up to a level comparable to cost of gelding which is something, no longer cheaper to license than geld, which will no doubt mean many of your sort of colt owners (as referred to in your post, not personally) may well do neither.
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Post by chloesmum on Dec 13, 2014 13:10:39 GMT
I think sarahp and sjw87 have made some excellent points and I know speak from a sound knowledge base. We are not breeders and I must admit it does break my heart to see what happens to some old stallions who are deemed past their sell by date. Like all our ponies and dogs, we make a commitment to them and in Jacob's case he has a home for life where he will be cared for and loved, luckily he loves hacking and going to the odd show so hopefully will be active for a long time but we couldn't keep buying stallions and keep them all. I think going back to the original post it is important that judges and competitors see the value in mares and geldings as show animals and don't just go down this 'I must have a stallion' path. The two Jacob babies we have in the pipeline are both geldings as they would not be used to breed from. After all in the plaited classes ponies and horses there are no stallions allowed (apart from p/b arab ridden) so it seems this 'are stallions always better' question is unique to the M&M brigade.
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Post by dogandbone on Dec 13, 2014 14:58:45 GMT
I read with interest all the above threads! I think it really is a problem of M & M's only for exactly the reason that they are the only classes that allow stallions to compete right across the board. Personally I think it is not a sign of a good judge to be 'bowled over" by the Look at Me that is so often the most eye catching thing about the stallions in a class. I feel that some judges struggle to actually recognise the breed types and therefore actually be able to decide whether it is a good example!! How often have we had posts on here where people are complaining that the judge have congratulated the rider on a lovely New Forest when it is a Connamara - or the other way around or indeed various other breeds too. However as far as the question 'should stallions be shown or should they return to the breeding paddock' I ask the question, WHY NOT? If the rider enjoys showing said stallion, is happy to be placed where-ever (top or bottom) - they are at least making use of the pony and giving it a life! i would rather it was being shown, than spending time in the breeding paddock producing sub standard foals!! Of course it would probably be ideal to geld him, but as said before, not everyone is able to afford this currently.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Dec 13, 2014 15:24:29 GMT
I think the economics stack up differently if your'e talking about a mature, ridden stallion than when mentioned above by sjw87 who was talking about substandard young colts. The cost of gelding the former is not huge compared to the cost of keeping him, and all the expensive growing up, breaking and schooling has already been done, whereas gelding many colt foals would cost far more than their actual worth. And in your example dogandbone, if it would produce substandard foals anyway surely there is no reason to leave it entire.
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Post by bubbles1822 on Dec 13, 2014 16:21:29 GMT
If a stallion is happy then why shouldn't it be ridden and shown! They just get bored breeding foals... Why can't they do both?? Stallions getting placed above mares is too common unless a mare has a look at me attitude I do think a confirmation fault should be more heavily critiqued in a stallion as it can produce a lot more foals each year than a mare can.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Dec 13, 2014 16:27:01 GMT
Not in a ridden class, they aren't being judged on breeding value but on ride, conformation, movement and type. Doesn't mean it should be excused just because it has balls either.
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Post by dogandbone on Dec 13, 2014 16:57:02 GMT
I totally agree sarahp - but the article I started the thread about, was nothing whatever to do with in hand colts - it was the mature ridden stallion the judges were commenting upon! - Not everyone wants to go to hoys, but they enjoy showing at whatever level, and there are stallions in classes at RC / local standard shows, behaving themselves perfectly well, and giving their riders no end of fun!! Also, even at the top class shows, in qualifiers for RI and HOYS, there is very often more than one stallion in the class, and they are not all above the mares and geldings, nor is the same stallion winning every time! My point being that if a stallion doesn't have the best conformation, and is not likely to qualify, but the rider is happy to enjoy riding in these classes, despite not winning, then I see no reason why they shouldn't continue to do so, and better for the pony to be out doing something than in the 'breeding paddock' for obvious reasons.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Dec 13, 2014 18:34:11 GMT
Yes I appreciate that and it wasn't me that expanded the topic. I have a different outlook though to you re stallions - if used just as a riding horse they should be cut in my opinion, it's kinder to the horse and easier to manage all round.
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Post by sjw87 on Dec 13, 2014 21:08:59 GMT
I totally agree sarahp - but the article I started the thread about, was nothing whatever to do with in hand colts - it was the mature ridden stallion the judges were commenting upon! It was me who expanded the topic purely because young substandard colts grow into mature substandard stallions. Once someone makes the sensible decision to geld, that decision can't be undone and benefits the horse for the rest of his life. However, when someone makes the decision to keep something entire, as time goes on it reduces the likelihood of someone making that decision. Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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Post by cayo on Dec 14, 2014 9:16:54 GMT
Surely if poor quality stallions truly are standing top of the line above mares and gelding which are far better examples of the breed then the fault lies with the judges not the exhibitor does it not ? if they didnt get the placings then perhaps the owners would get the message.I read the report and looking at the numbers quoted of winning ponies being mares gelding and stallions it seemed a pretty even split by no means were stallion winning all the classes ?
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Post by oldschooler on Dec 14, 2014 15:22:18 GMT
If a stallion is happy then why shouldn't it be ridden and shown! They just get bored breeding foals... Why can't they do both?? Stallions getting placed above mares is too common unless a mare has a look at me attitude I do think a confirmation fault should be more heavily critiqued in a stallion as it can produce a lot more foals each year than a mare can. Agree, they can do both. But stallions are often at the top of the line simply because they have more presence than geldings - in the majority of cases though there will be some exceptions. The Royal Welsh set a good example having ridden D stallions in their own separate class. I remember many years ago that all colts at 2 years old needed to be licensed if kept entire, involving an evaluation. I wonder how many would keep a pony entire if this was still the case. I believe that unless covering mares a male should be gelded, and if not good enough should certainly not be covering. I see no reason at all to keep a pony entire if not covering. Just my opinion.
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Post by fluteybeauty on Dec 15, 2014 1:43:22 GMT
I'll be totally honest i know fairly little about mnm showing I've been taking my veteran out this year mostly for riding club but at some county shows I've gone with a friend and her welsh D. I'm simply amazed at the quantity of mostly welsh stallions around even at local shows if stallions are the best of breed why are there so many they can't all be the best at local level some have been shocking and handled dangerously even a welsh c owned by a 14 year old with obviously unit rested parents who had nothing to do with the horse and the horse could not even claim a ribbon locally despite her cockiness. We're overrun with badly bred horses there must be a way to promote geldings better than rearing prancing about stallions who can't keep still and handlers who don't know what to do with them. As all said they SHOULD represent the best of their breed perhaps penalising those that aren't would put idiots off them
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Post by sd52 on Dec 15, 2014 22:50:29 GMT
I have not read the whole article but have followed this thread with interest as I have had experience of both sides of the discussion.
We don't breed but do show ridden ponies under saddle our two retired ponies John's Cuckoo and Rhyd-ddu Glyndwr both started life as stallions but neither of them could cope with that life and were gelded Jonny at 7 both have gone on to win HOYS and been BOB at Olympia and are enjoying life at home prior to a possible shot at the Olympia veterans.
However we now have two young stallions who at the moment we plan to show as entire , both are currently turned out with friends but are treated like all our other ponies ie go out in the field every day and hack out with others. If they are not able to cope with life like this I would have no hesitation in gelding either of them as their quality of life is much more important than showing a stallion
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Dec 16, 2014 7:12:24 GMT
Looking at what you say above sd52, if they haven't the temperament to deal with a working ridden life then they have no place as a breeding stallion either so I for one applaud your choices, assuming that if they pass your test they are likely to go to be used at stud rather than only used under saddle.
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Post by sd52 on Dec 16, 2014 9:52:31 GMT
Yes Sarahp the c stallion had already covered mares prior to us buying him as a 3 year old and it has made no difference to his temperament he will have a ridden career and then go on to stand again . The connie has not covered although we have had requests he is a bit more of a boy and I want him to keep his mind on the current job but as you say in my mind if they don't have the right attitude should they be used anyway although I do appreciate that it is not always the case.
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