sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Nov 27, 2015 10:35:25 GMT
I think dressage would take up too much time for HOYS!
Yes, it was a PC thing in my PC mother day too - although 5'8" daughter used to do the 2'9" events on my 14.1hh Welsh D and the 3'6" on her horse of the time. I would make an exception for adults riding large native breeds though, and small adults breaking and schooling small ponies. I do have a pet theory that humans are either horse people or pony people, getting on better with one or the other. It does too depend on what you're intending to do on it - I gave up jumping when I was jumped off while hacking out on my own, and being a pony person was very happy hacking, showing and dressaging my Ds. Not to mention they are cheaper and easier to keep than a big horse. But if your ambition is to jump round Badminton, you do need a horse.
I think part of it is the current fashion of doing just showing as a discipline in itself, rather than doing a bit of everything as we used to do, which was best done on an animal the correct size for the rider.
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Post by the showing register on Nov 27, 2015 12:20:48 GMT
TSR are very pleased to be holding HOYS Junior Mountain and Moorland classes at their Spring and Summer Shows.This innovation is a very encouraging development for families and junior riders as it gives them multiple chances to qualify for HOYS and to ride on a level playing field with their peers. TSR supports riders through training and the TSR/HOYS Pathway and this new class will be a great stepping stone for junior riders. Showing is an expensive sport for families and being able to compete in more than one class at a qualifier with your children really helps to make the trip worthwhile. With a £20 TSR family membership you will be able to enter all the M and M HOYS Q classes and for an extra child to ride it is only £5 making ' having a go ' very affordable !
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Post by foxylady on Nov 27, 2015 13:22:49 GMT
Sarahp my dressage comment was abit tongue in cheek !!! I agree you are probably either a pony person or a horse person I suppose a lot of the other ( affiliated) disciplines generally attract people with horses and I am not saying for a minute that ponies cannot compete equally well they just seem to be confined to the junior ranks . I have no problem with people riding ponies as long as they are suitable size it has certainly brought our native breeds to the fore which can only be a good thing . If I was feeling sad about anything it is the demise of the british riding pony which in my day was a pony that competed in more than one discipline if showing has done anything it has turned the show pony into a one trick pony .
All this is straying from the point more classes for juniors can only be a good thing.
the showing register perhaps you could clarify for us if ponies competing in junior classes will be able to contest open classes with the same jockey ?
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Post by Small Breed Lover on Nov 27, 2015 13:40:09 GMT
I would have said that in the last 5 years the Welsh A and B, Dartmoor, Exmoor and Shetland classes have dropped off somewhat! At qualifiers they are the smallest classes and at HOYS there was a marked tail end. Perhaps cutting the qualifiers will raise standards and introducing the junior class will allow some youngsters to shine. If you were a breeder you would send your best animals to professionals that would achieve the best results. Ridden by small adults with years of experience and a well known face on the block, the chances are, results will be more than satisfactory. You can't blame anyone for doing just that, stud/sale value is of paramount importance to breeders. It's what makes the world go round!
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Post by catkin on Nov 27, 2015 13:47:01 GMT
I agree on the pony v horse people point... trouble comes though, when you end up with horse-sized children! As HOYS is run as a commercial concern, at the root of these decisions will be market demand/income generation. If the FR entries and therefore levys are high, then I can see why it would make commercial sense to add another class for this group - or extend the lifecycle of this group. I think the PB class is a similar thing - a class designed for show ponies (who have lower overall entries in qualifiers than any other section last time I heard) to do. If you look at falling numbers in small breed classes, this would also have an influence. So, annoying as this might be, I am afraid the market has created this situation. The saddest bit for me, will be the declining opportunities for small breed stallions. Their other competing options are limited too given PC and BRC rules on stallions and children.
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Post by chloesmum on Nov 27, 2015 14:16:49 GMT
I totally agree catkin. Hopefully it does look like numbers have not been dramatically reduced in the opens maybe 4 or 5 less. Numbers have declined in some qualifiers but the small breeds HOYS qualifiers we did last year were all well over 20 entries with the exception of one. Think it does depend on the show. I have to say I find it hard to understand this new class - seems to me that being 13 is the lucky number! You can do FR until you are 12 then this new class for 1 more season, I think it would make sense to lower the FR age but I guess that is really complicating things as NPS/PUK/BSPS all have 12 as the age limit for FR M&M. TSR does this additional class mean you have lost Small breeds/A or B Open qualifiers? Just trying to work out where we might need to go next year - if we bother!
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Post by the showing register on Nov 27, 2015 15:12:20 GMT
In reply to one or two points. Of course the stallions have their progeny which in the past have always been the benchmark of success.
I am going to check about the child riding in both but as I read it you can. We do not have open a ,b or small breeds at either show for 2016 which seems fair and we are quite happy about this as we see a great opportunity to bring new families and children into showing with the junior classes and our low membership costs.
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on Nov 27, 2015 15:59:47 GMT
Foxylady - so was my reply!
Small Breed Lover - I wear two hats on this one. I normally speak as a now ex-rider and mother of a rider, but with my other hat on as a breeder, if you have to pay someone to show what you have decided could be a top class show animal, then of course you want the best person available to show it for you.
Total sense as usual catkin. I was another with a horse sized child - and one who wanted to event too. There used to be a tiny welsh A stallion competing in all the PC stuff round here - you would know the owner who had a special exemption for him, and you would never have guessed he was a stallion without peering underneath, which was a long way down!
tsr - it can be a very long wait before a stallion's progeny is out there competing to promote him!
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Nov 27, 2015 16:12:58 GMT
I totally agree catkin. Hopefully it does look like numbers have not been dramatically reduced in the opens maybe 4 or 5 less. Numbers have declined in some qualifiers but the small breeds HOYS qualifiers we did last year were all well over 20 entries with the exception of one. Think it does depend on the show. I have to say I find it hard to understand this new class - seems to me that being 13 is the lucky number! You can do FR until you are 12 then this new class for 1 more season, I think it would make sense to lower the FR age but I guess that is really complicating things as NPS/PUK/BSPS all have 12 as the age limit for FR M&M. TSR does this additional class mean you have lost Small breeds/A or B Open qualifiers? Just trying to work out where we might need to go next year - if we bother! 2 more seasons "Rider not to have attained there 14th birthday before the 1st January in the current year"
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Post by maddiesmum on Nov 27, 2015 16:31:31 GMT
On the stallion point, yes progeny is good to see but takes time to speak for itself.....for me a competition record of the stallion's own speaks volumes, and I look at this with interest although we have only bred a couple, it has factored into the selection process for me.
My own daughter is 5yrs away from these junior classes, but I do actually think they are a good idea in principal. A stepping stone between FR & opens is helpful as there are lots of adults showing small breeds. Not that children don't hold there own in opens, several do, but to compete in your peer group as they do in the plaiteds, to me, is desirable.
I do feel the class could have been better thought through .....I don't think it should have reduced small breed qualifiers, unless it is restricted in that you can't compete junior & open, I haven't seen this confirmed anywhere. I also don't feel the ruling on the pony can qualify for FR and junior final but you have to find a different jockey very sensible....especially with kids ponies shouldn't it be about the partnership?
Also, I was a horse sized child myself (I had an ISRT at age 12 when now a days I could have been in FR?!) The age limits are much higher now, I'm sure LR used to be 7 and FR 9 or 10?? Please correct me if I'm wrong as I went straight into 13hh SHP's at 9 and it was a few years ago! Lol I feel it would have been fairer to also have a large breed section up to 16 say ? More in line with the NPS junior classes which work well. The large breed open classes are often immense so in likelihood even more challenging for a junior?
Oh and one last issue I hope these junior qualifiers are not all at weekday term time shows!
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Post by clobo121082NLI on Nov 27, 2015 17:57:15 GMT
Most people are bored of my opinion by now but I think one of my biggest bug bears with this class is essentially one pony can qualify in LR/FR/Junior and OPEN class. I am sorry this does not promote the correct type. The open classes were always there I thought to promote breed type and keep the heritage of these ponies (which weren’t just breed for children) showcasing the best of the best. It should not matter if the pony is ridden by an adult or child. There are children riding pony classes at HOYS exactly for ponies breed especially for children.
TSR I understand you want to promote families and children and that is great, however do you not want to also promote adults that enjoy showing? Sadly by removing open classes it just means more HP and amateur adults will struggle to qualify as producers will still jockey and qualify there amount.
Also I feel to actually benefit children that maybe don't get the usual chance to ride at HOYS this class should be restricted. You should not be able to qualify in the OPEN and Junior class. If this class is the stepping stone to encourage children into the opens, you should be able to do FR and Juniors, not qualify for both and then have to jockey the pony in one? I am not sure this promotes relationships, if I was a child I would be gutted I qualified my pony for two classes at HOYS and then someone else got to ride it!.
I am not anti this type of class at all - or juniors but I don't think it has been well thought out. I feel sad for all those tall children who are riding large breeds, in my opinion a much harder class to cope with at the age of 13/14. Many of these kids as well won't have had their last years in FR as they are too big for those smaller ponies and then are competing in HOYS classes of way over 30+. Interestingly Davina has noted that the small breed junior classes are the smallest entries from their successful PUK junior classes - so sadly the majority of kids won't benefit from this class. It just feels competitors weren’t consulted at all through this process, nor has the office been open with us, just putting out the information they want, glossing over the loss of open qualifiers and the fact kids can now do FR/Junior and Opens - if they had been more open, consulted with people and asked what they want HOYS might have ended up with a class a lot more people are positive about
hopefully issues will be addressed for next year and large breeds will be included
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Post by welfare issue on Nov 27, 2015 19:42:30 GMT
I totally agree with Chloe but the other issue that has not been raised is the welfare of the ponies , if as we think the ponies can now do three classes and not all the qualifiers are at the same shows I am sure in some cases this will result in ponies being dragged up and down the country in an attempt to qualify as most of the qualifiers are packed into a relatively short space of time. The tagg scheme also helps promote the ethos of the more shows you do the better.
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Post by 1st pony HT on Nov 27, 2015 20:15:25 GMT
Maybe HOYS should have thought to bring in a First Pony of Hunter Type class, the children who have LR SHP have to go straight from LR to open 12hh, there is no stepping stone for them. My daughter came off the LR on our SHP and had to go straight into open 12hh. She was lucky enough to qualify this year, thankfully with a saint of a pony, having never been to HOYS before. It would have been lovely if she had had that stepping stone. Sorry just another thought.
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Post by Toaster on Nov 27, 2015 22:38:46 GMT
Maybe HOYS should have thought to bring in a First Pony of Hunter Type class, the children who have LR SHP have to go straight from LR to open 12hh, there is no stepping stone for them. My daughter came off the LR on our SHP and had to go straight into open 12hh. She was lucky enough to qualify this year, thankfully with a saint of a pony, having never been to HOYS before. It would have been lovely if she had had that stepping stone. Sorry just another thought. I'm surprised that this continues to be a noticeable hole in the classes available.
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Post by Small Breed Lover on Nov 28, 2015 11:09:21 GMT
Yes children could potentially qualify for 3 classes and ponies for 4! However it has to be hoped that the judges involved will be looking for a different type and different way of going in each section. Perhaps there will be fewer FR types in open classes and vice versa! Now perhaps FR will be just that, instead of open ponies that have the right aged child riding it and going like an open pony.
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Post by Cynical on Nov 28, 2015 20:21:54 GMT
As Clobo says, it really should be a case of either/or, so pony is either FR or Junior or Open, as this is the ONLY mechanism by which the introduction of a junior class can truly extend the participation at HOYS, particularly for the very families that it purports to be designed for. Otherwise, it will just mean that greedy owners will recruit multiple jockeys (and there are plenty of good junior jockeys who ride for multiple owners) to qualify in different sections, just as happens at the RIHS with the junior and 'amateur' classes. The fact is that by making it 'seem' more accessible, more people will have a go, which means more levies, but in reality I suspect the junior class will consist of a mixture of ponies also qualified in either the FR or the Open.
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Post by lastchance on Nov 28, 2015 21:22:20 GMT
I think it would have been more fair to make this class for juniors aged 16 or under and not just limit it to juniors on the smalls. I'm struggling to see the logic of this class.
Could they not have just held a separate championship there, for the highest placed junior in every section?
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Post by sjw87 on Nov 29, 2015 8:34:33 GMT
The thing that strikes me is that in recent years, m&m and coloured classes have grown massively whilst there has been a decline in the entries for plaited classes.
My personal thought towards the reasons for this is that both m&m and coloureds have had open classes with no age restrictions. No having to sell a beloved pony without having outgrown it, just because the jockey is a year older. No having to have a tiny 5' adult on a big horse just to be able to show.
A lot of teenagers and small adults have realised the versatility of ponies and these classes have allowed showing to feature in what they do with their ponies.
Of course these classes are open to abuse with riders too big for ponies but that can also happen in age restricted classes as some juniors will be much bigger and taller than others of the same age.
As a small adult, I do not subscribe to theory of ponies for children and horses for adults - it should be about the animal being a suitable size mount for the jockey.
I agree with someone above who said it sounds to be an additional revenue stream to cash in on a section which is already very popular. I personally wonder how much additional support (and therefore income) would be generated by opening some of the plaited pony classes up to adult riders... Sent from my GT-I9195 using proboards
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Post by NPS guest on Nov 29, 2015 11:54:42 GMT
The national pony society run classes for show ponies and show hunter ponies with no age restrictions and stallions can be ridden in the classes too.they just ask that the rider is suitable height/weight to the pony, adults can ride the ponies. These classes culminate in a championship at Malvern with very worthwhile prize money
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Post by bluee on Nov 29, 2015 12:43:52 GMT
Does anyone know when the judges will be confirmed on the hoys website for the junior class and the other M&M judge?
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what about the workers
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Post by what about the workers on Nov 29, 2015 20:47:58 GMT
I think it would have been much more valuable for the junior riders to add a nursery stakes class rather than a junior flat class. In effect the junior class is only beneficial to 13 and 14yr old riders or those who have a pony over 12.2 as FR caters for the others. In my opinion it is a much bigger ask for a junior rider to take on the adults in an open 133 worker class than it is to compete in a flat class with a set show!
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Post by ilovenatives on Dec 24, 2015 18:37:34 GMT
Open Hoys qualifiers are up on the website but it doesn't say which have small breeds qualifiers , just says something about due to the introduction of a new championship to check show schedules to find out . Not very helpful , couldn't they just have published the small breeds qualifiers .
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Post by jtwills on Dec 24, 2015 18:42:00 GMT
It may be a stupid question but looking on the hoys website there are only 8 qualifiers for the junior ridden so does that mean that there would only be 8 in that class competing at hoys ?
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Post by the showing register on Dec 24, 2015 18:44:54 GMT
No 1 qualifies from each class I think
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Post by jtwills on Dec 24, 2015 18:53:00 GMT
Showing register do you mean the first ridden and juniors are together at hoys then
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Post by ilovenatives on Dec 24, 2015 19:29:37 GMT
I think it's one from the A's , one from the B's and one from the DES . Well that is what is on the timetable for NPS spring .
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