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Post by Not Logged In on Jan 10, 2016 21:56:58 GMT
hi,
As I've broken my New Year's resolution, I wonder if there are any other showing enthusiasts in the same position as myself. Disordered eating is something that has always been common in sports such as gymnastics and ballet, but does showing have the potential to follow in their footsteps. This is my 18th year suffering from disordered eating. Although the sole cause was not just horse showing, it was the starting point. There was always such as focus on staying slim, squeezing in into jackets/gloves/jods. I even remember getting a jacket fitted at 14 and being told to lose weight as it would "lay better" when being measured (I was underweight). I was often chosen to ride for people as I "looked nice on a show pony"
I still hear it often- producers telling jockeys/stable jockeys to lose weight, judges saying heavy kids "spoil the overall image", people advertising for jockeys "under 7 stone".
Just wanted to hear your thoughts- is this what we are putting children through? Apologies if this is a bit controversial/offends anyone, I was just curious.
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Post by gillwales on Jan 10, 2016 22:06:22 GMT
I agree, I know of people who have squeezed their children's feet into boots too small as it "looks" better. I have judged where it has been so hot that permission has been given to ride without jackets yet not one child did. This is truly awful, showing is meant to be a hobby that people enjoy, yet time and time again so many competitors are not happy if their pony goes well, only happy with a first or championship and going to ridiculous lengths to gain the awards. The only people who can alter things are judges, and if they see or hear anything untoward then it needs to be reported, plus they need to Judge accordingly.
Im sorry that you suffer with an eating disorder, I do hope you find a way to manage it. Please remember that real beauty is the way a person is rather than how they look x
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Search for perfection!
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Post by Search for perfection! on Jan 11, 2016 0:25:26 GMT
There is an ideal height and weight for each and every combination. Too tall, too heavy and even too small can affect the overall picture. Anyone with a decent eye would have to admit that the best picture is the top class equine with the right size jockey onboard. This should not however deter anyone from taking part whatever their dimensions but they should accept that the better visual that performs is going to achieve greater success. Pressure that causes eating disorders is inexcusable. Sensible eating to achieve a healthy weight is sensible. Consider an equine that matches the size of the jockey whatever their age. Success at the highest level is an art form where "picture perfect" is a prerequisite. There are different levels of success...... know your boundaries and your limitations!
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Post by Philippa on Jan 11, 2016 1:49:27 GMT
I can't really add to the above posts. I've been very fortunate that I've never had to watch what I eat. I'm now in my 40's. Have a young child and I still eat what I enjoy. I'm no means the skinny but fit rake that rode racehorses at 7 stone 2 but that was nearly 20 years ago now even though I feel it was only yesterday but im a healthy 10 stone (ish) and look a d**n sight better for it.
I was always super active as a child, always riding, gymnastics, sailing. I think this had a lot to do with me being a skinny rake. There were very few larger children when I was younger and I think the whole couch potato nation is to blame.
I truly feel for anyone who has an eating disorder, it must be soul destroying and I hope & prey I never find myself or any member of my family/friends in such position.
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Post by splash30 on Jan 11, 2016 7:51:05 GMT
Whilst not quite in the same field you are talking about, im tall and on the larger side than I should be and I'm very aware of what I look like on my horse and the 'picture' so I pay a rider to show him for me who is smaller and shorter to'enhance'the look. I was told by a judge (when I was a lot slimmer) not to show as I don't look right. I can understand the pressure and why it can lead to issues. I now produce my horse from home and meet my rider at shows so still have all the fun.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 11, 2016 9:09:45 GMT
And I always thought it was the horse/pony being judged, provided that the rider wasn't obviously too big and/or heavy for the mount. When did the change happen? Unlike the sports mentioned by the OP above, surely shape and size makes little difference to one's riding ability, certainly at the level of showing which is not that taxing?
I must admit to have tutted inwardly, not in public, when I hear of new mothers being thrilled to have had "a LR jockey" ie a girl - since when did your children matter less than showing ponies?
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Post by catkin on Jan 11, 2016 11:39:50 GMT
I agree SarahP - but you would be amazed at how harsh judges can be on larger children. My poor son was constantly being advised he should be in FR when he was four. He really didn't enjoy LR anyway, so I was lucky and found him a lovely old pony and off he went at five. I also don't think showing is the be all and end all, but if you do want to partake, then yes, of course the judges should be judging horses/ponies and many do. But, I am afraid that the overall 'picture' does make a difference and however harsh it may be, a slightly smaller rider often 'sets off' an animal to some advantage. And, I think, when learning to ride at least, being under-horsed isn't always a good thing. So, in short, neither of my children has ever got to the end of a class as they have needed to move up rather too soon for my liking. I will say that we were once judged by a well-known lady in a RIHS 128SP class and she made a very hurtful and derogatory comment about my daughter's shape and how it didn't suit her pony. Not only was this an absolutely disgraceful (the child was nine years old) way to communicate with a child, but actually (and I am very realistic) not the case at all. So, in answer to the OP, I believe yes, showing can have an impact on self-image. All the more reason to enjoy more variety with our equines. We all need to remind ourselves not to get carried away. There is more to life (like health, mental and physical) than trotting round a ring with a ribbon!
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 11, 2016 12:48:54 GMT
Yes, I obviously would be. I only started showing as an adult, and daughter (much older than your two as you know) did very little, so it's never been my area, but we'd have been straight out of it if body image had come up. It was though, in the "doing" as opposed to showing world that we inhabited obvious that the build of the child did affect what build of pony worked for them - mine was tall but with broad shoulders and hips and was never happy on a spindly SP, or later TB. But that was a matter of choosing pony to suit child, rather than diet child to suit pony, I'm horrified by some of the scenarios given above. If the picture is wrong, change the pony.
Eating disorders can be extremely serious, and there is no excuse for anyone to encourage them in any way, let alone for the sake of showing ponies, which although an absorbing pastime, does not warrant risking compromising health.
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Post by gillwales on Jan 11, 2016 14:53:12 GMT
I agree SarahP - but you would be amazed at how harsh judges can be on larger children. My poor son was constantly being advised he should be in FR when he was four. He really didn't enjoy LR anyway, so I was lucky and found him a lovely old pony and off he went at five. I also don't think showing is the be all and end all, but if you do want to partake, then yes, of course the judges should be judging horses/ponies and many do. But, I am afraid that the overall 'picture' does make a difference and however harsh it may be, a slightly smaller rider often 'sets off' an animal to some advantage. And, I think, when learning to ride at least, being under-horsed isn't always a good thing. So, in short, neither of my children has ever got to the end of a class as they have needed to move up rather too soon for my liking. I will say that we were once judged by a well-known lady in a RIHS 128SP class and she made a very hurtful and derogatory comment about my daughter's shape and how it didn't suit her pony. Not only was this an absolutely disgraceful (the child was nine years old) way to communicate with a child, but actually (and I am very realistic) not the case at all. So, in answer to the OP, I believe yes, showing can have an impact on self-image. All the more reason to enjoy more variety with our equines. We all need to remind ourselves not to get carried away. There is more to life (like health, mental and physical) than trotting round a ring with a ribbon! I admit to considering the bone on a WHP has being suitable for the rider, in other words if a jockey was very slight I would forgive a pony with lighter bone as it was capable of carrying the rider on it's back hunting. I have always considered that when we purchase a mount to ride hunting we select an animal suitable for the weight of the rider. What I do hate to see is a tiny jockey being over-mounted and dislike seeing little under-age jockies on being on ponies too big for them and being out of class age wise.
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 11, 2016 15:02:54 GMT
And I thought judges judged ponies against the perfect standard for that type/breed of animal, rather than in relation to its rider, which can of course change at any time.
Children these days may well be too big or too good as riders for the size of pony given for their age range, perhaps one reason for the rise in popularity of natives and the demise of ridden plaiteds? Easier to find a pony the right shape and size to suit your child however they grow. What about the other end of the scale - normal sized ladies on HUGE heavyweight hunters with their feet barely below the saddle flaps?
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Post by catkin on Jan 11, 2016 16:41:25 GMT
Yes gillwales - that is very sensible as a way of looking at things. Horses for courses/people. By under horsed I should clarify I mean big tall people scrunched up on little ponies. It may well need to happen for schooling and stallion ages etc. But, to teach a child/young person to ride correctly, I think its important that their legs are in the right proportion length wise to the animal. Of course, wider animals take up more leg, so it isn't about height in hh, rather scope. So, I think I am agreeing with you, but just coming from a slightly different angle. I know (as a small person) I was never ever short of rides and though I like to thing I was a good enough rider, I do think my size was a big influence on this! Yes, SarahP, good point re; the natives.
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Post by gillwales on Jan 11, 2016 16:58:46 GMT
And I thought judges judged ponies against the perfect standard for that type/breed of animal, rather than in relation to its rider, which can of course change at any time. Children these days may well be too big or too good as riders for the size of pony given for their age range, perhaps one reason for the rise in popularity of natives and the demise of ridden plaiteds? Easier to find a pony the right shape and size to suit your child however they grow. What about the other end of the scale - normal sized ladies on HUGE heavyweight hunters with their feet barely below the saddle flaps? I judged WHP , therefore it was on performance rather than shp or sh, now some people would only put up chunkies, however if the animal was suitable for it's rider, ie not over or under-horsed I would take that into account. I would have had a different outlook on SHP or SH classes, and personally I would consider if judging a heavy-weight show hunter if a petite lady made the horse look bigger than it was. But going back to WHP I would not want to see a tiny girl on a chunky monkey that she could not control; however if that chunky monkey had superb manners and carried his rider well then brilliant!
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Post by honeypot on Jan 11, 2016 17:01:52 GMT
I tend not to sell my ponies unless I absolutely had to, my children where often not the 'right' size for the pony although the pony was right for that childs ability. A lot of natives were developed to be worked and were often ridden by men so weight wise a lot will carry more that 9 stone, so I think its depends on the class. If its a showing class where the whole picture is judged then the size of the rider may effect the picture. If its a breed class the ponies type confirmation and way of going should be the decider but an over large rider may effect the ponies balance. What really makes me cross through is judges making personnel comments about riders especially children, when they have no idea how those comments will be taken. I work in a school and children have so much pressure put on them today, having to conform, far more than when I was child, they have far more homework and have often very long days traveling to and from school , that the fact they do anything outdoors is a minor miracle. I see girls with anorexia, and self harming when to the outside you would think they had nothing to worry about and certainly someone who did not know them would not be aware of their condition. My daughters were constantly being asked,'when would they be getting a horse', as both are tall, when the pony they were riding did every job it was asked to do. My friends children were even taller than mine and when the youngest was still on LR she would be taken for 12 although she was only 7 and only just started riding.
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Post by pipandwill on Jan 11, 2016 17:08:01 GMT
I think there is definitely potential for this to be a problem in showing, it is instilled into kids that they have to stay small to ride ponies. Whether that be in the height sense or being very skinny, I personally think it stems from the showing population thinking that 'the picture doesn't look right' if a child looks a little big. On another note, and this is just me so I don't know if this is a case with others, I happen to be rather tall(5'8) and by looking at me people often think I'm slim, however, I go on the scales and I'm nearly 11 stone, or I go on the wii fit and I'm bordering on being 'at a risk of being overweight ' This therefore makes me want to be skinnier, I'm an active person, ride 6/7 horses everday, jog or cycle to or from the yard everyday, so to me the only adjustment I could make would be to eat less, however, without wanting to toot my own horn, I do carry alot of muscle, which obviously makes me weigh more. I don't really know tbh, generally the whole obsession with having to look small on the horse or pony you ride is ridiculous
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sarahp
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Post by sarahp on Jan 11, 2016 18:21:57 GMT
WHP is still a partly showing class with a flat show and conformation etc taken into account. I wouldn't like to see any child on a pony they could not control either, regardless of size! I think where I differ from many is that I consider the welfare of the child as being more important overall, rather than showing the pony.
I would say I'll stick to having my ponies shown IH, but all being well I shall have one out doing WHP next season, a new departure for me apart from the days when daughter did them.
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Post by gillwales on Jan 11, 2016 18:42:32 GMT
What really makes me cross through is judges making personnel comments about riders especially children, when they have no idea how those comments will be taken. I work in a school and children have so much pressure put on them today, having to conform, far more than when I was child, they have far more homework and have often very long days traveling to and from school , that the fact they do anything outdoors is a minor miracle. I see girls with anorexia, and self harming when to the outside you would think they had nothing to worry about and certainly someone who did not know them would not be aware of their condition. My daughters were constantly being asked,'when would they be getting a horse', as both are tall, when the pony they were riding did every job it was asked to do. My friends children were even taller than mine and when the youngest was still on LR she would be taken for 12 although she was only 7 and only just started riding. No Judge should make a personal comment to any child, if they have concerns that they are under/over horsed then they should ask to speak to the parent, and then only if they feel it is a welfare issue;either to the pony or child. One should be extremely careful with comments, I made certain that constructive critisum was understood and taken positively, or my comments were on a positive basis. Very rarely would I make a negative comment, and only then if I had concerns for an animal's welfare, ie cruelly ridden. The other reason for being careful regarding comments is that many Judges have made fools of themselves!
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Post by lochielass on Jan 11, 2016 23:19:37 GMT
My daughter was told at 13 years of age that if she didn't have a big belly she would be able to get on her pony from the ground, that was from a riding instructor! (She never had to as we had a step and she was told it was better for the saddle if she got on from a step) She suffers from exercise induced asthma and the only two sports she could take part in that it didn't affect her was riding and swimming. She was by no means tubby in any way, she was small for her age and fitted in to clothing perfectly fine. That instructor nearly finished her from riding, she was having a lesson the following day and didn't attend but I certainly did, they were by no means sorry about it and said they would choose better wording the next time. It wasn't that my daughter was too big for her pony either in any way as she was 14 years old at the time and rode a 13.3hh Highland that she rides to this day.
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Post by gillwales on Jan 12, 2016 5:23:55 GMT
lochielass, that is dreadful, I do hope your daughter continues to ride, plus it is better for a horse's back not to mount from the ground. what an ignorant instructor.
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Post by ponymad79 on Jan 12, 2016 10:27:43 GMT
perfectly put gillwales
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Post by reality on Jan 12, 2016 12:11:42 GMT
Its all very nice to be in a world where age sex height colour and race do not matter, unfortunatley that is not the real world. I'snt showing about the confermation and preformance of the animal not "I admit to considering the bone on a WHP has being suitable for the rider, in other words if a jockey was very slight I would forgive a pony with lighter bone as it was capable of carrying the rider on it's back hunting." I have a rather small and portly daughter and a WHP that has light bone.Our combination would certainly be put down in your class if this is how you judge! My daughter has a pony that is fit for purpose and can carry her for a full day in the field, dressage,show jumping etc. But look at the overall "picture" and to be honest thats not great for a judge like you Gill. Fortunately we have been under judges who judge our pony's way of going style etc so do get recognition!
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Post by gillwales on Jan 12, 2016 15:01:25 GMT
Its all very nice to be in a world where age sex height colour and race do not matter, unfortunatley that is not the real world. I'snt showing about the confermation and preformance of the animal not "I admit to considering the bone on a WHP has being suitable for the rider, in other words if a jockey was very slight I would forgive a pony with lighter bone as it was capable of carrying the rider on it's back hunting." I have a rather small and portly daughter and a WHP that has light bone.Our combination would certainly be put down in your class if this is how you judge! My daughter has a pony that is fit for purpose and can carry her for a full day in the field, dressage,show jumping etc. But look at the overall "picture" and to be honest thats not great for a judge like you Gill. Fortunately we have been under judges who judge our pony's way of going style etc so do get recognition! Why don't you have the guts and decency to repy when you are logged in? Admin I find this very insulting and there was no need for this reply. I stand by how I judged, I would acept a pony that was ight of bone , that some people would not consider to have enough to hunt, if the rider was light enough, not if slim enough. If I judged that the pony was capable of carrying it's rider for a day's hunting I was more than happy to forgive it being light of bone, furthermore I have already pointed out to someone who thought I was wrong to do so that WHP is a performance class, jump marks were awarded regardles of conformation anad type, just on performance. All I can say was one of the main reasons I gave up judging was the fact that I did not have the time to judge the number of people that used to compete under me and the shows where I judged wanted me to do other sections as I was so popular, Judges do not get big classes unless they judge fairly. SO ACTUALLY YOU WOULD HAVE PROBERLY DONE WELL UNDER ME I AWAIT YOUR APOLOGY Reality
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Post by flee on Jan 12, 2016 20:11:39 GMT
Its all very nice to be in a world where age sex height colour and race do not matter, unfortunatley that is not the real world. I'snt showing about the confermation and preformance of the animal not "I admit to considering the bone on a WHP has being suitable for the rider, in other words if a jockey was very slight I would forgive a pony with lighter bone as it was capable of carrying the rider on it's back hunting." I have a rather small and portly daughter and a WHP that has light bone.Our combination would certainly be put down in your class if this is how you judge! My daughter has a pony that is fit for purpose and can carry her for a full day in the field, dressage,show jumping etc. But look at the overall "picture" and to be honest thats not great for a judge like you Gill. Fortunately we have been under judges who judge our pony's way of going style etc so do get recognition! I have read , and re-read , Gill's statement a dozen times now and , try as I might "reality" , I cannot see why you have taken umbrage . The way I read it is that , when judging , Gill says she takes into account the pony's suitability for its rider and thus would not automatically discriminate against a lighter type of animal if the pony and rider looked like a good partenership . ! What's so offensive about that ? And I've looked and looked but , for the life of me , I can't find the bit where she says that small and portly riders would be put down the line in one of her classes . so that would lead me to conclude that you have either misread , misinterpreted or misunderstood Gill's post . Perhaps you should clamber down from the moral high ground and read it again - the lack of oxygen up there appears to have affected your ability to interpret information and make reasoned argument .
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Post by gillwales on Jan 12, 2016 20:44:46 GMT
thank you Flee
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Post by here we go on Jan 13, 2016 18:38:38 GMT
I can sort of see reality point but it could have been written a little more sympathetically! Let's not get of subject
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Post by beefy on Jan 14, 2016 12:32:12 GMT
I see the point reality is making from the comments made and do see her point. Her child is "portly and would get marked down as not "light"on her pony. I see her point her daughter should not need to slim down so the picture is correct for certain judges. I don't think that's unreasonable. Childs welfare comes first not a red ribbon. WELL DONE REALITY!
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Post by Yesido on Jan 14, 2016 12:38:37 GMT
I am posting as a guest as i do not want to air my past under an identity, but coming from someone who has suffered before, i agree but i do not think it has potential to follow, i think it is already there amongst many riders.
There is lots of talk over the internet about introducing weight limits to small breeds, i believe this could be a trigger for many, those who have not suffered an ED before, and most definitely those that have.
If i was showing a small breed, the talk of a limit would definitely have potential to affect me.
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Search for perfection!
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Post by Search for perfection! on Jan 15, 2016 1:05:11 GMT
As usual the original post has ended up off topic with some individuals polishing their egos! Nobody has said you can't show if you're not tiny and slim or that you don't have a perfect pony. There is an ideal but enjoyment can be had by competing successfully and enthusiastically. If your pony is a little fine so what, if your child is a little tall or portly get on with it and do your best. In WHP if you jump clear you're in with a chance, less than perfect conformation will be marked down. You don't get sympathy marks because you're overweight or your pony is too strong. You're marked on a set of criteria which are interpreted slightly differently by every judge. It's a first that a judge retires for being too popular, shame on you for depriving the masses! Encouragement, praise and resilience are what are required and most of all ENJOYMENT!
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Post by gillwales on Jan 15, 2016 5:43:32 GMT
Search for perfection
As I was also caring for my Father; single handedly, the long hours that took me away from him when I was judging meant I couldnt do it anymore. Do you know I put in the part of a comment explaining the way I judged to try to help, that was extremly nieve of me and I really wish I hadn't.
Shame on all of you Judge bashers... and you wonder why nobody wants to come forward now that has no ulterior motive
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Post by beefy on Jan 15, 2016 12:53:40 GMT
But what was posted is a child would be judged as per her picture on her pony! I’ve seen varying shapes and sizes on pony’s and I just look for happy faces of the children and young people (as long as there is no welfare issues). So what if they don’t look picture perfect and are "to light or to heavy" for the show ring etiquette! As long as the pony is comfortable and puts on a good show, jumps well and the rider has style! I do not think anyone is judge bashing but I feel your comment re judging pony’s/horses on the size of their riders: "however if the animal was suitable for its rider, i.e. not over or under-horsed I would take that into account" would quite rightly have responses. Being over horsed or under horse in my view is not an issue its about schooling and performance. At 5"2 on my 17"hh I look "over horsed" (pea on a drum) but can I assure you that I am not, he's just a big boy and I am small we are perfectly in tune and totally in love! "What I do hate to see is a tiny jockey being over-mounted and dislike seeing little under-age jockeys on being on ponies too big for them and being out of class age wise." I can also assure you that I am not over mounted and have the ability and skill to ride Humphrey and he has the schooling to respond to me at a heartbeat. I guess if you put such comments on the internet you should expect to get a reaction. Not logged on, I was once in your shoes but with therapy and help have got through my "troubles" as Mum used to call it! I now quite happily ride whatever I want in the show ring and if a judge judges me for my size, shame on them, and if I present in front of them again, then shame on me! Good luck on your journey I hope you resolve your demons and can live at peace with yourself body image soon! xx :-)
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Post by gillwales on Jan 15, 2016 13:51:12 GMT
I give up, why do you numpties not READ what is written instead of jumping to conclusions? if you had made a comment when logged in I would have sent you a private message so you would be clear has to what I wrote. But I see all of the negative comments as usual , have come from those who chose to put this sort of thing up when not logged in. YOU ARE A PILE OF COWARDS!
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