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Post by sjw87 on Apr 30, 2016 8:59:08 GMT
I've started this as a new thread so as not to go off topic on the venue change one:
It was noted that a lot of shows are now stipulating 'no refunds for any reason'. With the climate going how it is, more and more shows are being cancelled due to this.
If a show has to cancel, what costs do they incurr? Hoping that some show organisers on here may add some insight into what they have to pay for upfront that would be non-refundable and essentially where competitor's entry fees go.
I completely appreciate that shows can't just give full refunds. If, as competitors, we expect that to happen, we should also expect to lose some of our favourite shows as they become financially unsustainable.
However, shows also can't expect competitors to freely give their hard earned cash in advance entry fees to have nothing refunded if the show is cancelled. Shows will find diminished entry numbers if this becomes the norm.
I also understand that shows can't just make an instant decision regarding refunds and often state that they will discuss and make a decision at the next committee meeting. Maybe it's time that this kind of thing is discussed during the organisation stages of the show so they can instantly inform competitors of the process/situation when they announce the cancellation as often people just don't have the cash to enter another show without knowing if they will receive a refund. Better yet, have a section in the schedule to outline this so that competitors are fully aware and agreeing to this before entering.
As a competitor, I have no issues with shows keeping a proportion of the entry fee for admin and costs they can't reclaim but I just can't afford to have nothing returned. I am sure that there are plenty of other people the same.
The reality is, there is a contract accepted with show entries that money is given with the expectation of receiving a service. A rule of no refunds under any circumstances really isn't fair on competitors. If no mention of cancellation terms in the schedule, shows may be opening themselves up to being taken to small claims court for failing to fulfill their part of the contract.
Likewise, if changing venue, they are essentially changing the contract which in law cannot be done without agreement from both parties. I completely support shows doing what they can to ensure they can run but they need to safeguard themselves but putting in writing what will and will not happen with entries for people who can no longer attend due to the changes if this is the case.
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Post by thatboythatgirl on Apr 30, 2016 11:12:38 GMT
I have no issue with losing £10 stated in schedule for refund of entries if show I cancelled.
When I agreed t&c it was for somerford not warren farm; as far as I'm concerned it's a breech of contract. In there schedule there is no mention of what happens if a change of venue.
The difference is 52miles it's not down the road. I don't have the money to enter else where on the whim of a possible refund
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Post by Philippa on Apr 30, 2016 11:24:30 GMT
One show I entered a couple of years ago cancelled. We were offered our money back (can't remember if there was an admin charge but that's fine) or asked if we would like to donate our entries to their chosen charity.
I asked for a refund, I felt a bit awkward about it but 40 quid is 40 quid and I wouldn't put that in a charity box if I was walking down the street.
It's a great shame that the shows are having to move but with our delightful weather the organisers are having a logistical nightmare. There will be uproar if the show cancels completely and uproar if the qualifications are lost/moved. I feel for the organisers and applaud any who can relocate rather than cancel.
I do however feel that entry fees should be offered as a refund less a small admin charge. I went last week to area 1a after they moved another 30 miles away from us because I'd pre entered but due to me going to arena uk the following day I wouldn't have entered both shows had the venue been as far originally.
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Post by Dipsy on Apr 30, 2016 12:13:20 GMT
Well coming from the shows point of view, following a cancellation of a major show its a nightmare.
There are loads of costs that cannot be avoided depending on when the show has to cancel... Affiliation fees to the societies, marquee hire, judges expenses, insurance, jump hire, the list is endless....
Insurance covers part of the costs but far from all of it.
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Post by sjw87 on Apr 30, 2016 13:03:58 GMT
Well coming from the shows point of view, following a cancellation of a major show its a nightmare. There are loads of costs that cannot be avoided depending on when the show has to cancel... Affiliation fees to the societies, marquee hire, judges expenses, insurance, jump hire, the list is endless.... Insurance covers part of the costs but far from all of it. Thank you for this reply. As a competitor, I think it's impossible to fully appreciate the level of organisation and costs involved in running a show, both beforehand and on the day of the show. Obviously these have to be offset in the case of cancellation - it used to be rare that shows couldn't go ahead but sadly the weather is causing it to become a regular occurrence now. I also don't doubt that changing venue incurrs extra costs than if the show went ahead as planned as well as the logistical nightmare of having to reorganise things in such a short space of time so I really applaud them for doing so. With this in mind, I think that shows really need to consider and put in writing their procedure. Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
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Post by janetbushell on Apr 30, 2016 13:10:05 GMT
Realistically only large county shows will have cancellation insurance - the costs would be too high for most events & even then the weather may be an exclusion.
Most equipment costs for items that are hired/bought in will not be refundable - after all the suppliers could not hire them elsewhere once booked. Bought items eg rosettes & back numbers may be rolled over to next event of course, & prize money would not be paid out, but depending on the bank balance of the show, without the show running, revenue to underwrite the following year's show may not be there.
Judges expenses may have already been incurred if accommodation has been booked even though travel expenses may be avoided (depending on when show is cancelled)
There are also likely to be increased admin costs (whether refunds/partial refunds are offered or not) due to post, telephone, hours worked etc in respect of shows who have employed staff - volunteers usually bears these extra costs themselves!
Most schedules do have some rules which can be interpreted to cover these scenarios (& venue changes) - "we reserve the right etc etc" & some do state cancellation fees in the rules also, which I think is a good policy as then everyone knows where they stand. However very few people actually read the show rules & when they sign the entry form they are agreeing to them!
I have had personal experience of a show cancellation & several experience of postponements, change of venues etc.
On each occasion (all bar one before the financial down turn) most suppliers have wished to keep a loyal customer & have negotiated their charges (perhaps deducting costs of transport, man hours if not worked & the like) to help the event & actually so have many competitors by not claiming refunds etc. However many seasonal service providers & the like are no longer in the financial position themselves, to be so generous, as they now face increased costs themselves & often more competition as well & neither are many exhibitors.
Shows that try to run without the draw of "big" qualifiers are usually in a financial balancing act to put the event on in the first place & those who have been showing for a long time will all have fond memories of shows that are no longer with us.
There are no easy answers & showing is an expensive hobby mainly well subsidised by volunteer staff & generous sponsorship, but even this cannot help the weather!
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Post by sjw87 on Apr 30, 2016 13:12:02 GMT
A show near here that cancelled a few years ago communicated the cancellation very well. When it came to their refund procedure however, their communication was not so good.
They offered a full refund so long as you made a request, in writing, by a certain date (which was not very far ahead) including all your entry details. Any entries not requested to be refunded by this date would be considered to be a donation to the show society. As it wasn't well communicated, a lot of people only became aware of the procedure after the cut off date and therefore did not get their refund.
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Post by sjw87 on Apr 30, 2016 13:24:54 GMT
Thank you, Janet.
I think you have hit the nail on the head with the financial downturn.
Everyone from competitor to show society and suppliers are not in a financial position to absorb the cost in the event of cancellation any more.
It would be awful if show societies ceased to exist but unless there is a sudden increase in all weather venues large enough for big shows, the weather will always be our enemy.
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Post by Dipsy on Apr 30, 2016 14:21:20 GMT
I think that there are a lot of shows that are not in a very good financial position as well that a cancellation could also mean the end of a show.
It's most definitely every shows worst nightmare and unfortunately for me was in my first year of being the secretary! Most definitely sink or swim lol
It's a decision that isn't easy to make, but safety of the competitior comes first as well as respect for the owner of the land as you don't want to wreck their grounds.
I've been competing myself for alot of years and can see things from both sides and have been to many shows where it was a surprise that the show was going ahead, including great Yorkshire in 2012!
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Post by chloesmum on Apr 30, 2016 18:06:15 GMT
We were in the position last week due to water logged ground where we had to make a decision 2 weeks before show to change venue or postpone. A nightmare either way and I was going on holiday 2 days after decision was made. We are a very small BSPS Area and this is the first time we have had to do this but we had no choice. We definately did not want to lose our RIHS qualifiers in the Area and changing date might have given us the same venue (but maybe not with the weather) but the nightmare of having to perhaps get new judges etc was one we wanted to avoid. Luckily we did find another venue not too far away from the original one, about 10 miles perhaps. We did offer competitors a full refund but I don't think anyone took this. We did have to reduce 6 rings to 4 but the Show went on as they say in the movies! Not sure of final figures yet as we have not had a meeting but I think we have probably stayed afloat! Entries on the day were good. As Janet say's insurance is not a viable option for a small committee but we do keep enough money in our bank account in case we do have to cancel or run at a loss. I really feel for all shows in this position but do feel that most competitors value the fact that you do try and run a show and keep the qualifiers. Changing venue may not be ideal for everyone but at least you are trying to continue. Edited to add probably for most shows it is not so much the rings but the biggest problem is with parking lorries which is why the landowner we were originally holding our show at decided he had to cancel. At this time of the year lorries churning up fields is a big issue and they would have all had to be towed on and off. We managed to squeeze the big lorries on to hard standing but the 7.5 ton & under had to park on a field and it amazed me that some competitors were so rude at having to wait to be towed out and our poor volunteer tractor driver received so much abuse for a free service! Most venues particularly around our way just do not have hard standing parking to accomodate the amount of lorries that turn up for a qualifier show
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Post by judyh on Apr 30, 2016 20:08:06 GMT
As Claire posted , the costs of running a large show are massive. The cost of cancellation insurance, following a previous cancellation is also too large . Even just postage involved in sending refunds has to be taken into consideration. When The Hambleton had the plug pulled at the last minute all the food for nearly 400 was already on the field - the list is endless. I can understand competitors needing a partial refund , but those who never make any effort to help at their local events and just compete have no idea what goes on behind the scene.
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Post by hazeysunshine on May 1, 2016 18:25:26 GMT
I've only experienced one true cancellation and it was put on fb with the Secretary ringing all competitors individually to ask what they wanted to do with entries. Had the option of refund or to carry it over to the following year. It was cancelled due to strangles and I'm assuming the only reason they could still refund was because it was an agricultural show everything else was still running. Most shows I see now are no entries refunded in any circumstances. It's why if I can I will always enter on the day some weekends I just don't feel like showing, even if I had one planned
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