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Post by So Confused on Jan 9, 2017 16:27:56 GMT
Could anyone help me regarding the new hat rule, my understanding is that if you ride M & Ms you can't use the Fiona, but for riding horse classes you can. We went looking for a new hat on the weekend, the saddler had quite a large stock of the Fiona, when asked how would he be able to sell them, his reply was they are still used for hunting and pony club, how ludicrous is this, thank you in advance
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Post by ponymum on Jan 10, 2017 10:15:22 GMT
I agree completely ludicrous , im in the same boat , have a fiona and cant use it  |
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Post by bigmama on Jan 10, 2017 14:08:16 GMT
Could anyone help me regarding the new hat rule, my understanding is that if you ride M & Ms you can't use the Fiona, but for riding horse classes you can. We went looking for a new hat on the weekend, the saddler had quite a large stock of the Fiona, when asked how would he be able to sell them, his reply was they are still used for hunting and pony club, how ludicrous is this, thank you in advance
www.pcuk.org/uploads/dcs/Hat_Rule_2017.pdf
Page 2 of the above link states that the Pony Club is appointing officials (one may be your D.C.) to check rider's hats and to apply a white tag to those that meet the required safety standards .. British Eventing will apply a red tag .. I wonder if showing societies will follow suit?
Similarly, the British Show Horse Association website states that hats carrying only BS EN 1384 are not allowed 2017. This should answer your question about Riding Horse classes.
britishshowhorse.org/bsha-members-rulebook.asp
I doubt there is any UK equestrian association accepting BS EN 1384 riding hats in 2017 ... for anyone still unsure, go have a look at your equestrian discipline's on line rule book, a much more reliable and accurate source than Joe Bloggs tack shop
As for hunting, I expect it is down to each individual hunt's rules?
If you look on Charles Owen website, you will see that the Fiona no longer features on it as C.O. has ceased manufacturing it.
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Post by So Confused on Jan 10, 2017 21:58:08 GMT
Thank you big mama for your reply, do you know who wants this rule enforced for 2017 and why the Fiona does not comply
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Post by bigmama on Jan 11, 2017 12:16:47 GMT
Thank you big mama for your reply, do you know who wants this rule enforced for 2017 and why the Fiona does not comply
All hat standards evolve as technology improves and understanding of injury sustaining falls improves. As to why the Charles Own Fiona does not comply, one can only guess that the protection it offers is less than that available from superior models. You would have to ask Charles Owen for more in-depth information.
There is a new BS (British Safety) standard in the pipeline but this has not yet been agreed with the European Standards and BETA
No point kicking against the change. It is here and to give the best currently known head protection. |
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Post by ShowingMad2 on Jan 11, 2017 13:27:40 GMT
Similarly, the British Show Horse Association website states that hats carrying only BS EN 1384 are not allowed 2017. This should answer your question about Riding Horse classes.
britishshowhorse.org/bsha-members-rulebook.asp
This link only refers to riders who are jumping in the Working Show Horse classes - not the hack, cob and riding horse
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Post by bigmama on Jan 11, 2017 14:54:01 GMT
ShowingMad2, the link does not only apply to Working Show Horse classes. If you read down, it does say new rule 3. exhibitors 15yrs to 17yrs of age are included in the new hat restrictions. I must admit, I didn't notice the age limit before until I re-read. So I guess that if you are aged 18yrs or over, you can wear what you like?
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Post by mcnaughty on Jan 17, 2017 10:44:48 GMT
Pony club have for many years (well before this new ruling) checked hats and applied coloured tags to them and so have BE I believe. Unfortunately this tagging could very easily be abused in some way so I feel it is best that we police ourselves and if you ignore the ruling run the risk of forfeiting expensive entry fees.
Its not stupid or ridiculous, its your head and that of your children. The Fiona has obviously been found lacking in some area of safety/protection. I know its a pain and an expensive pain at that but our heads should be our main priority. It has been proven time and time again by tragic circumstances that you dont need to be jumping or indeed doing any more than a walk to fall off a horse and die or be severely disabled due to brain injury. What I am trying to say here is we shouldn't need to be forced to want to protect ourselves. If we are told that something is potentially dangerous we should be taking action without being forced to do so. Oh and then moaning about it ;-)
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Post by sundance20 on Feb 16, 2017 10:58:23 GMT
Sorry to butt in to the post but do you think it would be acceptable to wear my KEP hat for working hunter? Its the shiny finish and plain navy?
Thanks
Edited - Its up to standard, just unsure on weather it would be frowned upon by judges
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Post by hats on Feb 16, 2017 12:49:08 GMT
Team harvey have not got gone for the norm for there hat and are wearing the Charlotte Dujardin hat. So i think people are starting to think ourside the box.
As for enforcing it the person on the cover of the recent showing journal seems to be wearing a hat that seems to be lacking in the padding that all the hats that now meet the standard have. I assume they are one of the people that have said they are just going to carry on using the Fiona regardless. I assume though that if this was a qualifying show for RIHS/HOYS and someone asked the hat of the winner to get checked and it wasn't upto standard would they lose there placing and qualification?
I did ask the BSPS how they where going to enforce it and had no reply. ITs also not just about societies its also individual shows have their own rules in regards to hats and standards, the thing people need to remember if your not in a hat that doesn't meets the safety standard requested but the society/show you will not be covered by the insurance
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Post by mcnaughty on Feb 22, 2017 13:35:15 GMT
I have seen quite a few workers guys - some of them extremely respected producers too - wearing more of a show jumping style hat for the jumping phase. My daughter wears a jockey skull as she has to have this for PC and then she has her velvet for flat showing so I dont really want to buy a third hat for her as she keeps growing! I cant usually be bothered to swap them over between the two phases.
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Post by @HORSE on Feb 22, 2017 14:04:13 GMT
All Showing Societies associated with the Showing council have accepted the same hat wording so
Correctly secured Skull Caps/Riding Hats that meet one of the following current Safety Standards/specifications MUST be worn by all Riders of all ages. All PAS 015; VG1; ASTM F1163 04a onwards; SNELL E2001; AS/NZS 3838 2003 onwards.
In addition the new BS/EN standard will be allowed, once approved with the finalised number being advised in due course. Please note that from the 1st January 2017 the list of standards no longer includes BS/EN1384: 1996 or 2012 (or prior year suffix). The new European standard will be allowed once finalised and will be advised in due course
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Post by to hats on Feb 22, 2017 14:22:33 GMT
I would imagine the person on the front of the magazine maybe has a charles owen show jumper which is legal but less padded if it is the old version. I think you will find a lot of people wearing those this year. I personally don't think you need to 'think' outside the box. Call me old fashioned but there are plenty of available velvet hats out there which look nice and are within standard. I think choosing an alternative hat is actually more about standing out and marking your team - a bit like matching browbands etc
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Post by catkin on Feb 22, 2017 15:26:26 GMT
Please check your rules on changing hats between phases!
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Post by hats on Feb 23, 2017 12:14:23 GMT
I have an old show jumper must be about 10 years old (been sat unused for the past 6 years) and it has more padding than the Fian that we've just brought.
Its like people that wear hunting caps with a detachable harness on, you can quite clearly see they are not "safety standard" hats
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Post by Just wondering on Mar 17, 2017 13:19:26 GMT
Has anyone actually had their hats checked, been to a few shows in our new hat and not once been inspected , on watching some of the top level competitions noticed that some riders still had what looked ( faded) like old hats, I maybe wrong and are these people having them professional aged. Surely the society's who back these new regulations should make an effort to police them otherwise what's the point.
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Post by janetbushell on Mar 17, 2017 16:25:49 GMT
Has anyone actually had their hats checked, been to a few shows in our new hat and not once been inspected , on watching some of the top level competitions noticed that some riders still had what looked ( faded) like old hats, I maybe wrong and are these people having them professional aged. Surely the society's who back these new regulations should make an effort to police them otherwise what's the point. My daughter's hat is still legal as it is PAS015 so they will not all look new as several existing models are perfectly fine |
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Post by 1999 on May 2, 2017 21:38:52 GMT
Is it right that the PASO15 1999 is not up to pony club standard? It has to be 1999 or 2011. Why is this?
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Post by 1999 on May 2, 2017 22:15:25 GMT
Sorry above post should say should say it has to be 1998 or 2011.
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 3, 2017 6:14:04 GMT
Just a comment on SAFETY.
Judging BSPS WHP over the weekend - it was very noticeable that many of those who had a stop wearing a 'velvet covered' hat with flesh harness - the VERY first thing the rider did before anything else was to re-adjust the hat on their head, so clearly, their hat was not a secure fit . . . . (obviously have no knowledge of which make or style, but the velvet appeared 'new' on all those of which I'm commenting).
My scribe steward made the same observation.
Since safety is paramount and the 'shiny style' having been made fashionable in dressage circles, it beggars belief that parents put their child's safety at risk.
Writing this, I'm now querying - WHO should check hats? show venue? collecting ring steward? in the interests of time with a large volume of entries, we were instructed that the riders went to the first fence without coming to the judge. So, a hat not fitting properly only became evident if the pony put in a sharp stop.
In any case, from a judges' perspective, the logistics and practicalities of a judge or steward removing a hat from a (sometimes young) rider in the middle of the ring in order to check it when the rider is fired up ready to jump, is obvious.
To add, rule or no rule, there should not be the necessity for a hat to be changed before phase 11 (nor indeed for a body protector to be removed. A Conformation judge understands.
I was shocked at the reaction of one mum, who's daughter had a rather nasty winding fall (did not hit the fence, thankfully). I went to the child whilst my steward caught the pony.
On arriving to her child, (after me and the Paramedic) the mum said - "I hope you aren't hurt darling, I didn't put your body protector on today so you didn't feel bulky" . . . . .
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Post by janetbushell on May 3, 2017 8:05:25 GMT
Is it right that the PASO15 1999 is not up to pony club standard? It has to be 1999 or 2011. Why is this? ANY PAS015 hat is allowed under the new rules for showing - you would have to direct this question to the Pony Club for their reason if this is the case. |
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Post by hatcheck on May 3, 2017 8:29:47 GMT
just for information - the stewards were checking all the hats in the collecting ring for at least one class at BSPS winter champs - riders had to dismount.
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 3, 2017 9:13:07 GMT
just for information - the stewards were checking all the hats in the collecting ring for at least one class at BSPS winter champs - riders had to dismount. That's good to hear. And, dismounting riders is the only safe way to do this checking. BSPS's Rule 47 states that "the BSPS will authorise spot checks at certain Shows and Riders breaking this rule (ref: Rule 46, which quotes Current Standard No's) will not be allowed to compete". |
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Post by catkin on May 3, 2017 11:14:47 GMT
At Pony Club we used to get checked at all rallies and competitions and then got a purple sticky ribbon thing to put round the harness, so once checked you weren't again.
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 3, 2017 16:19:48 GMT
At Pony Club we used to get checked at all rallies and competitions and then got a purple sticky ribbon thing to put round the harness, so once checked you weren't again. So, if (eg.} the BSPS & NPS had installed a 'sticky' on the Hat strap, then that would be obvious to all (Judges) that the HAT was safe. However, I understand that different colours make for different (years) with BE / BS rulings. How can a BSPS or NPS Judge possibly be expected to retrospectively police that, once the Jumping round has finished? It has been put to me today from a prominent Show Organiser, that the responsibility MUST be with the Parent, when the rider is under 18 years of age. Over to you! |
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Post by catkin on May 3, 2017 16:30:30 GMT
Yes, Caroline Nelson, complicated I am sure. I think it could work if say BSPS introduced a red sticker now and until the standards change, that is the colour. If you take this to extremes, stewards would check as people come into the rings like they used to with NPS cards. Lots of faffing, but not sure how else it can be done?
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Post by sjw87 on May 3, 2017 20:56:14 GMT
I was never in the pony club so just wondering if the hats were checked for fit or just that they met the required safety standards? Also, can the labels be transferred from one hat to another by a competitor if they choose to do so?
Correct fit and safety standard are two different things but ultimately the hat has to meet both criteria to offer the protection it is designed to do. The scenario Caroline describes from her recent judging sounds more of a fit issue than relating to safety standards.
With that in mind, an official checking the safety standards of the hats would not prevent the issue that Caroline noted. If the fit is also going to be assessed then the official would have to be qualified to make a judgement on this.
Essentially the onus has got to be on the competitor (or their parent's if a minor) to ensure that the hat they wear is safe AND fits - this includes storing it correctly to avoid deterioration as well as replacement after impact and periodic renewal. Although often cheaper to purchase online, hats really are one of those items that should be tried and fitted prior to purchase. I work in health & safety and it always amazes me how blasé some people are when it comes to protecting their head.
I do wonder what would happen in terms of insurance and HSE in the unfortunate event of someone being seriously injured or killed by a fall at a show where their hat was subsequently found not to be up to the standards dictated by the rules (omitting the scenario of signed waivers)? I know that in my job it isn't enough to just say that we stipulate something in the rules; we have to audit to ensure the rules are being upheld and have a paper trail to prove that we do so.
Sent from my SM-A300FU using proboards
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Post by hatcheck on May 5, 2017 12:21:17 GMT
Yes hat checks were taking place at BSPS and there was the 'odd' rider going into the evening performance with a different hat on to usual ;-)
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Post by pipandwill on May 6, 2017 15:30:18 GMT
I wear my gatehouse showjumping hat for everything now. I can't justify spending money on a new up to standard one, I find it totally bizarre why the final isn't up to standard anymore? But top hatsr, beaglers etc are still allowed in some classes?
So I wear a showjumping hat in workers and flat classes purely because I can't afford a new one!!
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