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Post by Pleh on Nov 23, 2017 6:01:58 GMT
With regards to safeguarding and sport can light be thrown on why drug offences are omitted from showing judges disclosure documents?
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Post by Philippa on Nov 23, 2017 7:35:29 GMT
Given you are posting as a guest I wonder if you have cold hard evidence of this?? We as a company carry out an enhanced DBS check on all our staff and due to the nature of our business any criminal activity would’ve brought to our attention.
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Post by Pleh on Nov 23, 2017 7:42:55 GMT
Disclosure forms completed annually by judges omit this.
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Post by No idea on Nov 23, 2017 9:16:41 GMT
I am not a judge however as I believe all judges are volunteers in a sense as they do not get paid, apart from abiding by the rules of the society they judge under I would guess that is why. I believe there is a 'health' disclosure but from what I have seen this is again only self disclosure in terms of ability to stand in the ring for a certain time or ride in the case of ride judges. Not sure what sort of drugs you are talking about here - medical or recreational?
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Post by Fed up now on Nov 23, 2017 13:04:51 GMT
For goodness sake, why would anyone who gives up their time voluntarily to stand in a ring for hours in pouring rain and boiling sunshine to be openly slated by competitors who don't get placed before they've even left the ring. To then have people on here other and social media slating them for perceived poor results.
Why would anyone who does this for a less than a cost of a tank of fuel have to disclose what they do in their personal life!
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Post by gillwales on Nov 23, 2017 17:20:09 GMT
For goodness sake, why would anyone who gives up their time voluntarily to stand in a ring for hours in pouring rain and boiling sunshine to be openly slated by competitors who don't get placed before they've even left the ring. To then have people on here other and social media slating them for perceived poor results. Why would anyone who does this for a less than a cost of a tank of fuel have to disclose what they do in their personal life! This is exactly why I have not returned to judging or stewarding since I have started my own business
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Post by No idea on Nov 23, 2017 18:07:02 GMT
Actually given the conditions that some judges and stewards have to endure just for the 'love' of the sport I reckon you could do with a few drugs to get you through the day!!!! Joke - before anyone jumps on me but seriously have to agree with above posts - judging is a voluntary occupation and IF there was serious concern over someones behaviour I am sure it would be noticed and can be reported to the society. I once witnessed a judge who we felt was 'under the influence' and it was reported to the show secretary and they stepped in to stop said person ride judging (they had nearly fallen off twice). Sometimes judges who may be 'senior' have looked frail in the ring hence I guess why the medical disclosure is asked for but at the end of the day it is up to shows who they ask and officials should consider the length of time and conditions they are asking judges and stewards to take on. Judges also need to be realistic about their own stamina but really it is up to them, after all as has been said they are offering their knowledge and service for free.
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Post by maxandpaddy on Nov 23, 2017 18:21:25 GMT
The whole Safeguarding issue is interesting though, do judges need a DBS Check? Because if it isnt in place at the moment you can bet your bottom dollar it will be in the future given that the wording of the disclosure and barring service states one is needed for anyone in regular contact with children whether paid or as a volunteer. Obviously riding school instructors need one and I know football coaches of under 18's need one ....I wonder if Producers have them in place?
As a society in this day and age i'd be seriously thinking about it ...if it isnt already in place
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Post by ilovenatives on Nov 23, 2017 20:04:36 GMT
Interesting point Max and Paddy . I wonder also do producer's who are teaching their clients ( children and adults on their own ponies or sometimes on the producers ) do they have to have an inspection like riding schools do . Sorry I know that wasn't the original subject of the thread but I'm just curious because even people who do pony rides and pony parties have to have the inspection .
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Post by gillwales on Nov 23, 2017 20:43:51 GMT
The whole Safeguarding issue is interesting though, do judges need a DBS Check? Because if it isnt in place at the moment you can bet your bottom dollar it will be in the future given that the wording of the disclosure and barring service states one is needed for anyone in regular contact with children whether paid or as a volunteer. Obviously riding school instructors need one and I know football coaches of under 18's need one ....I wonder if Producers have them in place? As a society in this day and age i'd be seriously thinking about it ...if it isnt already in place The thing with Judging is that it is done in public, the Judge is accompanied by a Steward, the children have their parents/ friends/ producers with them so how can a Judge do any harm to a child? And while I whole heartedly am against any kind of illegal drugs and would happily lock anyone up and throw away the key, why would does this need to be taken into account? What we need are Judges with integrity, knowledge, experience both practical and theory and honesty, nothing else really matters.
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Post by baileybob on Nov 23, 2017 21:24:45 GMT
For goodness sake, why would anyone who gives up their time voluntarily to stand in a ring for hours in pouring rain and boiling sunshine to be openly slated by competitors who don't get placed before they've even left the ring. To then have people on here other and social media slating them for perceived poor results. Why would anyone who does this for a less than a cost of a tank of fuel have to disclose what they do in their personal life! Just because someone does something “without payment”, “out of the goodness of their heart”, “or for the love of” does not absolve them or those they represent of, of all other responsibilities....Special Constables, hospital volunteers etc....I don’t mean to offend, but they do a hell of a lot more, risk more, put up with more etc etc, yet they’re still subject to checks and their private life scrutinised in order to volunteer. Why not the same for judges when they’re representing a professional body??
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Post by chloesmum on Nov 24, 2017 9:11:20 GMT
Cannot claim to be an expert in this area but are showing societies 'professional bodies' are they regulated in anyway like the Police Force or Hospitals? Whilst I would be totally prepared for any check if it was required is there a cost in this? If so who would pick it up the society - members fees going up or would the judge/steward have to pay? Many judges/stewards/area committee members who give their time for free no longer compete but still have to pay out for membership. This was actually raised by someone on our Area Committee at our AGM last week, she has worked on our committee for years and is our Treasurer, she does an amazing job and we would be lost without her. She gives her time for free but still has to pay society membership and has not shown a pony in many. many years. My point is why has this been raised? Is this really an issue or are we just putting another obstacle in the way of encouraging people to help at shows? As gillwales pointed out what are the risks here? When is a judge/steward left alone with a young person? Showing is a public sport unlike others where personal training or changing rooms may be involved. Heaven forbid if every judge/steward had to have personal checks as well we certainly would have none to call on.
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Post by Pleh on Nov 24, 2017 13:38:12 GMT
The question was asked because usually if you are required to sign a disclosure form for any position [Voluntary or salaried/Lone worker or accompanied] where you have any contact at all with children you are asked not only for information relating to abuse but also substance misuse offences. The omission appeared to be unusual.
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Post by Philippa on Nov 24, 2017 15:16:25 GMT
The question was asked because usually if you are required to sign a disclosure form for any position [Voluntary or salaried/Lone worker or accompanied] where you have any contact at all with children you are asked not only for information relating to abuse but also substance misuse offences. The omission appeared to be unusual. But the positions quoted above are positions which must have a DBS in place. From what I gather judges do not need to be DBS checked yet. I’m not against you in what you are saying but it’s a little unclear and I’m sure if you raised your concerns with any society you are a member of it would be addressed. Or should he. Standards & legislation on these subjects are changing quite regularly so I see no problem with a separate form being sent to each judge for them to complete & return if this is something that has been omitted in the past from the judges application packs. Also to what level are you talking about ie recreational or criminal. Very different and not condoning either just trying to understand your concerns.
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Post by Wow on Nov 24, 2017 18:25:06 GMT
Actually given the conditions that some judges and stewards have to endure just for the 'love' of the sport I reckon you could do with a few drugs to get you through the day!!!! Joke - before anyone jumps on me but seriously have to agree with above posts - judging is a voluntary occupation and IF there was serious concern over someones behaviour I am sure it would be noticed and can be reported to the society. I once witnessed a judge who we felt was 'under the influence' and it was reported to the show secretary and they stepped in to stop said person ride judging (they had nearly fallen off twice). Sometimes judges who may be 'senior' have looked frail in the ring hence I guess why the medical disclosure is asked for but at the end of the day it is up to shows who they ask and officials should consider the length of time and conditions they are asking judges and stewards to take on. Judges also need to be realistic about their own stamina but really it is up to them, after all as has been said they are offering their knowledge and service for free. Wow...it just never stops does it.I am a judge and while I have no problem with checks on my past and you can have my permission to check away,from the moment I was born if necessary I am sick to death of this constant onslaught on Judges, some competitors will not rest until they have destroyed all the judges who DO give up their free time to stand in the middle of a ring for up to eight hours a day in all weather's, get spoken to like something on the bottom of someone's shoe when they don't agree with their placing. Your never happy and never will be till you have destroyed this equestrian world.And please don't tell me it's your right etc etc I am absolutely bored to years with hearing it.I am a huge supporter of clarity but this constant jabbing at judges has got to stop...or perhaps judges should start firing back. Just for once it would be nice to read something positive about judges instead of notching all the time. Thanks to persons who started this thread I am giving up judging...it's just so demoralising
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Post by maxandpaddy on Nov 24, 2017 19:29:26 GMT
I do feel for judges nowadays, social media has its pro's and con's with judge/owner/breeder bashing being a common theme amongst the horsey community, I fell into it myself without meaning to cause offence by stupidly highlighting something that happened which shouldnt of BUT social media wasnt the place to do it....lesson learnt
There's nothing like being in the ring and regardless of position hearing a kindly often helpful word from the judge, it can make your whole day. Having said that I feel in this day and age more clarity is needed in showing to protect both the competitors and the judges - a strict across the board code of conduct with procedures and rules in place for whats expected from all and ideally one that all societies uphold.
I hope you dont give up judging Wow, things may need to change but everyone needs to get involved to sort these problems out ....like the good ole days xxx
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Post by gillwales on Nov 24, 2017 21:03:27 GMT
Actually given the conditions that some judges and stewards have to endure just for the 'love' of the sport I reckon you could do with a few drugs to get you through the day!!!! Joke - before anyone jumps on me but seriously have to agree with above posts - judging is a voluntary occupation and IF there was serious concern over someones behaviour I am sure it would be noticed and can be reported to the society. I once witnessed a judge who we felt was 'under the influence' and it was reported to the show secretary and they stepped in to stop said person ride judging (they had nearly fallen off twice). Sometimes judges who may be 'senior' have looked frail in the ring hence I guess why the medical disclosure is asked for but at the end of the day it is up to shows who they ask and officials should consider the length of time and conditions they are asking judges and stewards to take on. Judges also need to be realistic about their own stamina but really it is up to them, after all as has been said they are offering their knowledge and service for free. Wow...it just never stops does it.I am a judge and while I have no problem with checks on my past and you can have my permission to check away,from the moment I was born if necessary I am sick to death of this constant onslaught on Judges, some competitors will not rest until they have destroyed all the judges who DO give up their free time to stand in the middle of a ring for up to eight hours a day in all weather's, get spoken to like something on the bottom of someone's shoe when they don't agree with their placing. Your never happy and never will be till you have destroyed this equestrian world.And please don't tell me it's your right etc etc I am absolutely bored to years with hearing it.I am a huge supporter of clarity but this constant jabbing at judges has got to stop...or perhaps judges should start firing back. Just for once it would be nice to read something positive about judges instead of notching all the time. Thanks to persons who started this thread I am giving up judging...it's just so demoralising I don't blame you, but please when you resign make it clear why. Enjoy all the free time you will have next summer
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Post by Pleh on Nov 24, 2017 21:13:09 GMT
The question asked was simply asking why declaration forms for judges, volunteers, officials are not standardised across all societies and sports. This would be simply to introduce and there would be no need for anyone to be concerned.
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Post by Philippa on Nov 25, 2017 7:39:17 GMT
Ok let's put this straight now. Judges are normal people with normal lives and normal friends and families. They have a passion for ponies and horses and some are able to continue to keep their own, others are not for whatever reason. They are normal people who if they have their own livestock will usually compete them as normal exhibitors like everyone else. Ok so far........ However ........ The minute they don their judges hat and stand in the ring a lot of people think they turn into something completely different.
Judges are people who give up their time and give their opinion (which is asked for and paid for by the competitor) and that should be that. They do not come into close contact with children in a manner that would put said child at risk and to think they do is ridiculous. In fact it is so ridiculous now that I've seen some judges hesitate before putting a rosette on for Christ sake.
Judges do a great job in the main and they should be treat with respect or we will very quickly find there will be a big fat shortage and less shows because of this.
We all have our favourites and not so favourites.
i assume there is a criminal declaration form to sign in the application pack?? If so then this should suffice as it covers any form of criminal activity. And what people do in their spare time is up to them regardless of whether they are judges, competitors or spectators.
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Post by pleh on Nov 25, 2017 11:29:29 GMT
Agree Philippa with everything you have said above regarding judges and the question shouldn't discourage anyone from judging. This is simply an administrative query. Judges are sent criminal declaration forms to sign. It was interesting to see specifically with regard to abuse and omit substance misuse which is generally included on such forms. As we know these declarations are subject to strict data protection ruling and their use is at the discretion of whoever sends them out.Therefore there is no need for concern as we are all aiming to offer clean sport.
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Post by gillwales on Nov 25, 2017 11:47:29 GMT
Out of interest Pleh, how do you think that this question will improve Judging in the horse world? Nearly all of the Showing Societies are Charities and they will have had to abide by the rules regarding this matter to comply with the Charities Commission, however should you feel strongly enough on the subject I suggest you write to the Societies that you are a member of and ask them. Failing that go to the AGMs and raise the matter there.
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Post by viking on Nov 25, 2017 12:39:27 GMT
Are you trying to help Pleh, or is that you are in need of help ? Either way you seem very concerned, and I wonder why.
What is the basis of your problem ?
I feel you are close to doing judges an injustice. IF you have a legitimate contention, why not bring it up with the show committee or Society concerned ?
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Post by Pleh on Nov 25, 2017 13:48:31 GMT
In short if other sports comply and ask for declaration regarding both abuse and substance misuse why are you suggesting that there a problem with showing doing the same? This is certainly not judge knocking as surely those who stand in the ring respect the law. If individuals have had an issue in their distant past then this can be taken into consideration and no-one need be aware apart from the ruling body. However if a major offence has taken place then this surely will need to be taken into account. Those who use drugs for recreation or medicinal purposes know they do so for their own reasons and at own risk. Surely we should all be working towards as clean a sport as possible and follow good practice. If this isn't the case then perhaps the question needs to ask why.
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Post by gillwales on Nov 25, 2017 13:51:07 GMT
I think you are just Sh!t stirring
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Post by viking on Nov 25, 2017 14:03:12 GMT
Well pleh your login, help in reverse, suggests to me that you do have a problem or maybe a grievance. Dog with a bone, can't let go attitudes generally seem to have an underlying cause, and I am not certain that you are trying to be helpful. I am tending to agree with gillwales.
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Post by Pleh on Nov 25, 2017 17:29:03 GMT
The question asked was simply a query and not problem or grievance whatsoever. Thank you kindly for responding
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Post by sjw87 on Nov 26, 2017 19:30:01 GMT
Slightly off topic and maybe I should have posted it as a new thread but just a question that has come to mind; when we talk about dope testing and banned substances in our sport, we automatically think of the equine.
Do any societies have rules in place/banned substance lists for riders and handlers?
I've never considered it until this thread, and have certainly never had reason to in all my years of showing but I'm just curious.
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Post by No idea on Nov 27, 2017 9:07:54 GMT
I am assuming riders at the Olympics are subject to testing as other sports are? I think jockeys are as well? Apart from that why on earth would we need to be? Most of us exist on coffee; chocolate; red bull and wine at shows to keep us going!!!!
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Post by honeypot on Nov 27, 2017 9:59:00 GMT
I would have imagine under normal circumstances a judge would have very little contact in the ring, but the fact they are a judge would for some people give them a certain, trust,influence and expertise outside the ring.
As a child I looked up to a man because he was heavily involved in showjumping locally as an organiser, he had a pony kept on our yard. I was very young and he behaved inappropriately towards me, I knew that there was something wrong, but I had no words to express why it was wrong, I didn't tell anyone and I just kept away from him. About three years later he was convicted for kerb crawling. What I was really upset about was other people knew that he was asexual predator of young girls and had not warned me. I think from what we have learned in recent weeks as that some people take advantage of their position to do things that at its simplest is just making someone feel uncomfortable with the situation, or it can become more serious. Volunteering does not mean that you are automatically a nice person, some people do it for social reasons, and some people do it as part of career progression, to fill their CV. As a steward I have worked with some lovely judges, who are the majority, but I have also worked with a couple who have been rude and aggressive, and that's in the ring. These I have reported to the shows organiser. For my job I have a rolling DBS, I think it costs £15 a year, I never think about it. I can check when it is checked and I have to give them permission. If DBS had been there all those years ago that man who was inappropriate to me would have been flagged, the BS would have known, and it would been up to them to decide whether it was best for him to be in regular contact with young people. I now realise why he was where he used to put himself, where he could chat up young girls and not in the box.
For DBS, you fill out a few forms, initially cost about £54, what's the problem? Safeguarding is everyone business, it about being aware, prevention, its about being open. I thought all organisations had to have a Safeguarding Lead, my husband who is a member of a gliding club, is a charity and has school age children as members certainly has and takes it seriously. If showing societies are not following Safeguarding policies its something to be concerned about. Not judge bashing at all, a real concern.
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Post by gillwales on Nov 27, 2017 14:21:16 GMT
Honeypot, I completely agree with you. In regards to this thread the OP was advised by more than one person to contact the Showing Societies to ascertain what they had in place and to raise any concerns, however that did not seem enough for the OP. I have had a DBS with several jobs and with one where I was Safe Guarding of Children I did in regards to some tenants of mine, I had no problem and I doubt that most panel Judges would either; unless they were asked to pay for it. It was the dog with a bone attitude that came across which made me comment the way I did and I would imagine the same for Viking. As always I am suspicious of people who post under guest names when it is not personal. I would urge anyone who has concerns over a specific persons behaviour around children or vulnerable adults to contact the Police, I did in regard to someone who appeared to be stalking my teenage daughter and they resolved the problem without letting the man know that I had raised the issue with them
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