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Post by bigmama on May 31, 2018 12:08:57 GMT
Have quoted this before .. as my dear old dad would say, "Whilst left to people's honesty, there will always be some who cheat".
If the punishment for rule breakers of PP classes was tougher, ie. a ban from showing for a certain period, then the cheaters would think twice but showing societies will probably not implement such punishment for they need all the showing members they can get in these times of austerity!
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Post by janetbushell on May 31, 2018 12:27:26 GMT
Love your Dad's quote bigmama!
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sarahp
Happy to help
Posts: 9,510
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Post by sarahp on May 31, 2018 13:24:57 GMT
My daughter hit a brick wall as she has a demanding job involving lots of travelling, so had to keep her horse at a livery yard with arena and lights to ride after work, not a trainers or producers but not DIY either, she couldn't have done that. That put her outside the regs, certainly at the time, could of course have changed since. The horse was looked after in the basic stuff by the yard, but schooled and ridden only by daughter, who oversaw what was fed too. I was trying not to get personal!
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Post by Worth a complaint? on May 31, 2018 13:44:14 GMT
Your thoughts on this one Is it acceptable for a judge to judge a pony in an open RI qualifier and then a few weeks later go into the ring and strip the same pony in another open RI qualifier?
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 31, 2018 13:57:49 GMT
Your thoughts on this one Is it acceptable for a judge to judge a pony in an open RI qualifier and then a few weeks later go into the ring and strip the same pony in another open RI qualifier? Well, again, put this question (not anonymously) to the relevant Society's office. And, Breed society, if relevant. its this sort of grizzle which opens up a can of worms. I'm not agreeing with you, I'm not disagreeing with you - just stating the facts.
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Post by chloesmumnli on May 31, 2018 15:50:20 GMT
pinkypie123 I would suggest telling the people concerned with the 153cm SHP to enter Suffolk County - looking at the results page nothing forward in the 153cm SHP RIHS qualifier!! So they wouldn't have to cheat to pick up a ticket! I might not be popular for saying this but have to agree with others on here that it does seem to be the PP classes that cause all the upset, rules get tightened every year and still people seem to feel the need to bend them. With declining numbers and no entries in some plaited qualifiers what is the point? I guess just another class to do. Another one sounding like an 'old timer' but back in our day qualifying for the RIHS in just the one championship class really meant something and being in the ring with 'the best' produced or home produces was an honour. I do feel sorry for the societies trying to 'police' these classes and the number of complaints they have to deal with.
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Post by gillwales on May 31, 2018 16:39:53 GMT
Unless those who make complaints about rule breakers are prepared to give their personal details, how will anyone be able to monitor if these people are also cheating? It could lead to lying outside the ring, now that's a thought!
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Post by CarolineNelson on May 31, 2018 16:45:44 GMT
Unless those who make complaints about rule breakers are prepared to give their personal details, how will anyone be able to monitor if these people are also cheating? It could lead to lying outside the ring, now that's a thought! Gill Wales - the awful (and very sad) thing is, is probably does happen already.
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Post by gillwales on May 31, 2018 16:48:25 GMT
Unless those who make complaints about rule breakers are prepared to give their personal details, how will anyone be able to monitor if these people are also cheating? It could lead to lying outside the ring, now that's a thought! Gill Wales - the awful (and very sad) thing is, is probably does happen already. It is response to those who have written posts that want to be able to make a complaint against someone but does not want to give their name. And yes I bet it has happened, hence the need for 2 independent complaints. Even photos can be doctored these days
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Post by Pinkypie123 on May 31, 2018 16:56:17 GMT
Personally, as it stands, I would always contact BSPS first, with a complaint but not everyone wants to do that because of reasons already stated. The point I was making was that, what seems just lately, competitors seem to have absolutely no boundaries and are prepared to go to extreme lengths to qualify for the PP classes. The deception is just so much more elaborate. I completely agree with Caroline - when you consider the repercussions as well! Many deceptions are involving children of an age that know right from wrong. What message does that send out to your child? Or what does that say about your parenting skills.
With such hardcore deception it ihas made things so difficult for the societies to deal with. In many cases, despite having evidence which you believe will be enough to validate your objection, if the person in question flatly denies the accusation and say, for example, anything relating to show production suddenly disappears into the ether - what happens then? You can't accuse a person of lying - a lengthy investigation ensues and it almost makes you think that's you need to call in the IT and Forensic experts along with someone with honed interrogation techniques of a DI at the Met!!!!f Tongue in cheek, but appropriate for the two scenarios I initially referred to.
Another point is that these objections are so time consuming - they can take weeks and even months. The time and cost could be put into new classes - something posiitive .
Big Mama and Ta have both suggested signing a piece of paper etc and whilst it is a good idea in theory, I agree with Janet that it will not stop people. It you can categorically deny, when questioned that you did not do something , as in my case - a piece of paper wouldn't stop them. They have no values, integrity or conscience and if they are allowed to continue, they will ruin the classes for everyone. If I ruled the world.............I would name and shame. I would give prior warning of the consequences of cheating. I would post it on the website that they have been disqualified andI would ban them from the series for the next 2 or whatever years. Societies and honest competitors should not have to be burdened by their lack of moral fibre or decency.
. I understand that you can't educate pork - but you can make a very impressive hog roast.............
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Post by gillwales on May 31, 2018 17:38:18 GMT
Scrap PP classes, if that is where all of the problems, or most, arise from. Personally I fail to see the attraction of them.
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Post by bigmama on May 31, 2018 17:46:24 GMT
Love your Dad's quote bigmama! Me too, Janet .. dad was a Tax Inspector (Accounts) and he was generally referring to the UK tax system
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Post by The groom nli on May 31, 2018 18:34:24 GMT
Scrap PP classes, if that is where all of the problems, or most, arise from. Personally I fail to see the attraction of them. This is so sad, but possibly the inevitable conclusion... I urge the home produced competitors to not push the BSPS to the point that we loose the series altogether. in today’s modern showing it is becoming increasingly difficult to qualify for the RI and HOYS. The producers are not just running one pony in each height section of each class, but up to 6 ponies per height section. When you consider the fees that people are paying to have their ponies produced, there will obviously be an expectation that the pony will “get a ticket”. We are seeing much more regularly that producers are sending teams up and down the country to several different shows on the same day. if you add to this the fact that less and less people are breeding ponies, and who can blame them with the increasing costs. And that most of youngstock don’t seem to come to the open market then you can start to see how difficult it will become to qualify for the open classes. With this in mind, let’s accept the fact that rules will be “interpreted” differently. We must, if we choose, formally complain or accept that we don’t all read the rules the same way. We must enjoy the PP classes and cherish our day out at the RI and in my opinion we must not chase the series out of town!
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Post by Philippa on May 31, 2018 19:01:21 GMT
I’d love to see PP classes back for our SPLR & FR sections but fear that won’t happen as the majority of competitors in these classes are producers. That said in our 4th season we’ve beaten them and qualified RI. 👍. There’s been a lot of sweat and tears along the way when we’ve gone home downhearted that we would never get past the produced ponies (and that is no slur against producers, please take a minute to look at the SP LR classes, they are produced & turned out to perfection and more often than not are clockwork) but it just takes that one good day and yep, we did it. 🎉.
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Post by pinkypie123 on May 31, 2018 19:17:25 GMT
fine but why should genuine competitors 'accept' that others have interpreted the rules differently - a less provocative word than cheating. There is only one way to interpret the rules - I mean for God's sake, there are only 5 of them!!!! I am puzzled why you should be prepared to accept that someone else, standing in the line up shouldn't be there but grateful that the classes are even run and compromise the spirit of the competition - why it was created - the whole ethos of the competition.
Quite frankly, if that is acceptable, they may as well be dropped. If you are prepared to accept the current situation and do nothing, frankly astounds me. I would rather not do the class than stand next to someone that has blatantly cheated to get into the class.
It is a class - it has rules - people are meant to comply with the rules and enter in good faith - as much as I enjoy meeting up with friends and having a lovely day out - I just can't see the sense in entering in doing the class.
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Post by ????? on May 31, 2018 22:06:35 GMT
It is a complete waste of money and effort to enter a class that you are totally eligible for, to then be beaten by people who ‘cheat’ and then lie about the fact that they have cheated....it just ruins it for everyone, stick to the classes you can do and if you have even a single doubt about whether you can do the class or not - either don’t do it or confirm you can by ringing BSPS or the relevant society to be on the safe side. Don’t ruin showing for everyone else and only do a class if you’re absolutely certain that you are eligible to do it.
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Post by janetbushell on Jun 1, 2018 6:44:14 GMT
Scrap PP classes, if that is where all of the problems, or most, arise from. Personally I fail to see the attraction of them. This is so sad, but possibly the inevitable conclusion... I urge the home produced competitors to not push the BSPS to the point that we loose the series altogether. in today’s modern showing it is becoming increasingly difficult to qualify for the RI and HOYS. The producers are not just running one pony in each height section of each class, but up to 6 ponies per height section. When you consider the fees that people are paying to have their ponies produced, there will obviously be an expectation that the pony will “get a ticket”. We are seeing much more regularly that producers are sending teams up and down the country to several different shows on the same day. if you add to this the fact that less and less people are breeding ponies, and who can blame them with the increasing costs. And that most of youngstock don’t seem to come to the open market then you can start to see how difficult it will become to qualify for the open classes. With this in mind, let’s accept the fact that rules will be “interpreted” differently. We must, if we choose, formally complain or accept that we don’t all read the rules the same way. We must enjoy the PP classes and cherish our day out at the RI and in my opinion we must not chase the series out of town! I'm sure the BSPS do spend a lot of time investigating complaints (& checking the basic eligibility in classes such as animals/riders being registered correctly, novice status if appropriate etc etc) and I'm sure it must be as equally depressing for them as it is for the competitors who feel they have witnessed dishonesty. However I don't believe that this is a reason to allow cheats to continue. I partly agree with some of the other points as reasons for declining numbers of home produced animals in some sections, EXCEPT "rules will be “interpreted” differently". I cannot agree that this should be a reason to ignore rule breaking, or out of fear that PP classes might be lost. This is not an option for ANY rules IMO. I often remark that the rule book is the only thing in showing that we have to agree on, both judges & competitors. If some rules are seen as less"important/open to interpretation" etc then where will it end? Will it become to be the norm for other rules eg novice status to be broken? I dearly hope not. Speak to the BSPS - they really do care about these matters & they will investigate them. You will NOT be seen as troublemakers or blacklisted & your names will not be made public by the society, if this is what worries you. I would add however, that short of having permanently monitored GPS tracking devices on all animals & riders it can be an extremely difficult task to prove who has ridden what & for whom 24/7!
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Post by gillwales on Jun 1, 2018 8:11:56 GMT
You are right JanetB, my post you quoted is down to the fact that people seem to be happy to complain on here, albeit under a guest name; although not everyone, but are not happy to actually do something about it.
I will tell you all a true parable, There is a farm near where I live, it is unkempt and run by 2 brothers, who are not the sharpest tools in the box! 3 times since I have lived here their cows have got onto the road, on the last occasion there were over 20 some trampled my veg garden, so I phone the Police who had to come out. I made certain everyone around the area knew what I had done and urged them all to do the same. They wept and wailed saying it had been going on for over 20 years, they had all moaned at the Brothers but nothing had got done. I asked if they had phoned the Police when the cows had been on the road; no they hadn't was the reply, so I advised them to follow my lead. A week later there was a new fence erected in the field where the cows had escaped.
I hope everyone understands why I have told you this. STOP MOANING AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT RULEBREAKERS!!! You will not get victimised, your name will be kept anonymous, the BSPS and other societies will act where they have enough evidence. People in the know have explained everything very clearly. We have debated the merits of there needing to be more than one person complaining. But I am certain if sufficient evidence comes to light with one complaint it will be looked into.
To those of you who deliberately break the rules, what satisfaction do you derive from doing so? There is no merit in winning something if you have to cheat to do so.
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Post by CarolineNelson on Jun 1, 2018 9:55:39 GMT
Well said, both Janet Bushell & Gill Wales. The Home produced sections were conceived with the best of intentions by the Societies/Associations which implement them. As usual, it is the minority who spoil the concept for the majority. However, there are some who desire to 'dumb down' the concept even more and who appear, quite frankly, jealous of those genuine home producers who are very good at what they do.
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Post by The groom nli on Jun 1, 2018 10:28:42 GMT
Ok perhaps my wording regarding the interpretation of the rules was wrong, but Is it possible police every single infringement? If there is a serious breach of the rules then follow the complaints procedure and lodge an objection but I do think that if the wrong person brushes a pony or takes its boots off and a photo is sent in then we are getting into the realms of pettiness and IMO time wasting and I believe that this is the sort of thing we must be careful about. We are a totally home produced family who show completely within the rules. The ponies are in the garden and we have no surface or other luxury facilities. We have won 5 pp ri qualifiers and we have qualified our pony for the ri in the open sp and the PBA and I love the pp series and fear we may lose it.
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Post by janetbushell on Jun 1, 2018 11:01:38 GMT
Ok perhaps my wording regarding the interpretation of the rules was wrong, but Is it possible police every single infringement? If there is a serious breach of the rules then follow the complaints procedure and lodge an objection but I do think that if the wrong person brushes a pony or takes its boots off and a photo is sent in then we are getting into the realms of pettiness and IMO time wasting and I believe that this is the sort of thing we must be careful about. We are a totally home produced family who show completely within the rules. The ponies are in the garden and we have no surface or other luxury facilities. We have won 5 pp ri qualifiers and we have qualified our pony for the ri in the open sp and the PBA and I love the pp series and fear we may lose it. Yes I understand your idea & your fears - we as a family were devastated by a complaint made using the then new rule, forbidding the wearing of earrings, meant that a deserving winner was stripped of their HOYS qualification & dismissed from the class (the rule was later modified & riders are asked to remove them!) - my daughter, who moved from 3rd to 2nd with the new 1st placed animal taking the ticket actually said she would want to qualify by having the best animal on the day, not because someone was wearing earrings. However, I reiterate that the rules are very clear, so IMO the "wrong" person should not brush the pony. These rules are clearly available at the start of the season for EVERYONE to read, so grooms, family friends etc should be made aware of them if they are coming to the shows with you. Would it be OK if the "wrong" bit was used, or an Open pony took a novice qualification? This is where IMO the danger of fluidity of rules is deeply worrying. It may be petty to disqualify someone for the wrong person brushing the pony, but we cannot pick which rules we consider worth upholding or not. You obviously enjoy your showing & your HP status as well as successfully contesting the Open qualifiers & have a lovely sportsmanlike attitude, however consider the HP competitor who is limited to a couple of attempts at PP qualification for any of a variety of reasons (cost, transport, schoolwork, family illness etc) - would it be fair to them to perhaps be denied a qualification by standing 2nd to someone who had broken the rules?
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Post by The groom nli on Jun 1, 2018 11:07:13 GMT
I do understand what you are saying it all just seems so tricky
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Post by janetbushell on Jun 1, 2018 11:15:59 GMT
I do understand what you are saying it all just seems so tricky Nightmare for all concerned!
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Post by Pinkypie123 on Jun 1, 2018 14:47:48 GMT
pinkypie123 I would suggest telling the people concerned with the 153cm SHP to enter Suffolk County - looking at the results page nothing forward in the 153cm SHP RIHS qualifier!! So they wouldn't have to cheat to pick up a ticket! I might not be popular for saying this but have to agree with others on here that it does seem to be the PP classes that cause all the upset, rules get tightened every year and still people seem to feel the need to bend them. With declining numbers and no entries in some plaited qualifiers what is the point? I guess just another class to do. Another one sounding like an 'old timer' but back in our day qualifying for the RIHS in just the one championship class really meant something and being in the ring with 'the best' produced or home produces was an honour. I do feel sorry for the societies trying to 'police' these classes and the number of complaints they have to deal with. Oh she qualified alright - she had no problems there - there was no shortage of classes for her to do so. It was just that at 22, she was too old to ride a 153 cms SHP, so she entered them pretending to be her 17 year old sister. If we hadn't have been the ones to have been cheated it would have been quite funny - people are so busy bragging on their social media sites that they seem to forget that everything they post is there forever. Wipe it off but it is still there on the google search page. In our case, for her to have been the correct age to ride a 153, she could not have possibly been born in 1995 as stated on her profile and how could she possibly move to York in the same year when she wouldn't even have been born? ? Now that to me is audacious to the extreme. I'm with Janet on where to go with violations etc.
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Post by ????? on Jun 1, 2018 18:37:14 GMT
You are right JanetB, my post you quoted is down to the fact that people seem to be happy to complain on here, albeit under a guest name; although not everyone, but are not happy to actually do something about it. I will tell you all a true parable, There is a farm near where I live, it is unkempt and run by 2 brothers, who are not the sharpest tools in the box! 3 times since I have lived here their cows have got onto the road, on the last occasion there were over 20 some trampled my veg garden, so I phone the Police who had to come out. I made certain everyone around the area knew what I had done and urged them all to do the same. They wept and wailed saying it had been going on for over 20 years, they had all moaned at the Brothers but nothing had got done. I asked if they had phoned the Police when the cows had been on the road; no they hadn't was the reply, so I advised them to follow my lead. A week later there was a new fence erected in the field where the cows had escaped. I hope everyone understands why I have told you this. STOP MOANING AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT RULEBREAKERS!!! You will not get victimised, your name will be kept anonymous, the BSPS and other societies will act where they have enough evidence. People in the know have explained everything very clearly. We have debated the merits of there needing to be more than one person complaining. But I am certain if sufficient evidence comes to light with one complaint it will be looked into. To those of you who deliberately break the rules, what satisfaction do you derive from doing so? There is no merit in winning something if you have to cheat to do so. Bsps don’t do anything about it though, so the cheats just get away with it and ruin the sense of community within the home produced classes - it’s just selfish if you ask me :/
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Post by bigmama on Jun 1, 2018 19:20:31 GMT
I am dumbfounded that someone would think that it is ok to interpret the rules as they see fit (' ..... let’s accept the fact that rules will be “interpreted” differently. We must, if we choose, formally complain or accept that we don’t all read the rules the same way')
For goodness sake, rules are written in black and white, plain English, not open to deviance or interpretation, they are what they say they are. I mean, how much simpler can you put the PP rules, they seem loud and clear to me!
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Post by The groom nli on Jun 1, 2018 19:51:41 GMT
I am dumbfounded that someone would think that it is ok to interpret the rules as they see fit (' ..... let’s accept the fact that rules will be “interpreted” differently. We must, if we choose, formally complain or accept that we don’t all read the rules the same way')
For goodness sake, rules are written in black and white, plain English, not open to deviance or interpretation, they are what they say they are. I mean, how much simpler can you put the PP rules, they seem loud and clear to me! I seem to be being completely misunderstood and I am sorry if that is the way my comments are coming across. I have admitted my choice of words was poor and I absolutely abhor cheating but I just really hope that the PP series is cherished and protected for the genuine HP families particularly in an era of professional showing which is becoming more and more competitive
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Post by thegroom on Jun 1, 2018 20:21:38 GMT
I am dumbfounded that someone would think that it is ok to interpret the rules as they see fit (' ..... let’s accept the fact that rules will be “interpreted” differently. We must, if we choose, formally complain or accept that we don’t all read the rules the same way')
For goodness sake, rules are written in black and white, plain English, not open to deviance or interpretation, they are what they say they are. I mean, how much simpler can you put the PP rules, they seem loud and clear to me! I seem to be being completely misunderstood and I am sorry if that is the way my comments are coming across. I have admitted my choice of words was poor and I absolutely abhor cheating but I just really hope that the PP series is cherished and protected for the genuine HP families particularly in an era of professional showing which is becoming more and more competitive If you see the wrong person removing the tail bandage do you reach for your phone and photograph it or turn away and go about your business. I suggest if you value the pp classes and no harm is being done then no objection is necessary. You may all think me wrong but this is just how I see it.
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Post by Pinkypie123 on Jun 1, 2018 21:32:32 GMT
No I agree with you - Groom - removing a tailbandage isn't going to alter the performance. Unfortunately, it is a matter of principle - if it contravenes the rules - then it contravenes the rules. I have to admit I wouldn't feel I had to reach for my phone but I completely understand why some do. It may sound petty to some but I am guessing the frustration is too overwhelming. I think the issue is that some competitors really do believe that the rules don't apply to them and give some an inch and next thing it turns into my scenario. BSPS did resolve this and they were as appalled as we were to discover what she had done - so take heart all of those who feel that it is pointless complaining.
I think the bigger issue here is that you come to a point where we are - clearly you have a fabulous pony and you wouldn't have bothered to compete in the PP classes if you didn't. Sometimes it is just nice to compete against your peers - on equal terms and to do well. After so much hard work, competitors deserve some kind of validation that all their hard work and sacrifices have been reaped your well deserved reward. And rightly so.
The answer is to work out how to preserve these classes -not just abandon them. In the end, it wil be the cheats that determine their future- it won't be BSPS alone that abandons them - it will be the genuine competitors that have had enough and see no point in even going to the final - and sadly, that includes me.
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Post by gillwales on Jun 2, 2018 5:23:42 GMT
?? ?? How do you know that the BSPS do nothing? Please provide proof before making that sort of statement. Just because you have made this comment anonymously does not shield you from a Slander Writ, so you need to be very careful and have certain evidence before making such a statement.
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