|
Post by gillwales on Jun 18, 2018 14:11:15 GMT
Gill - I I completely agree with Caroline and I don 't want to be offensive but I think you haven't perhaps grasped the gravity of the situation. The rules are not difficult to understand and really should not need clarification - they are crystal clear. Do you actually believe that the person that was 22 and competing on a 153cms SHP was going to ring up and ask if it was ok for her to do it? Absolutely not - she was a cheat and believed she would get away with it. I mean really, does a burglar knock on your door, declare his intentions to rob you and ask what's time you will be out? Really? I was not directly involved but there was another incident where a 'Show team', specialising in lead rein and 1st riddens and charges 100 (sorry can't find the pound sign) a week, has also qualified. Is she actually going to ring up the BSPS and say '0h, by the way, my child is riding a 143 SHP now but I am not producing, despite my child being well past lead rein are.........., I am offering schooling liveries, however? Allegedly, this was acceptable and her qualification still stands ..................work that one out. OR - another one and one that I am not directly involved in but it concerns a pony purchased from a producers yard, well past the cut off point of when ponies can and cannot be stabled in a professional yard. Yet it enters and qualifies for the PP? Don't tell me that they did not know and if there was any doubt they would have checked and been told they were not eligible. For the love of God, READ THE RULES - you would not enter a 143 open class on a 153 - all hell would break loose - Do you actually think the Producers would tolerate such behaviour? There would be an uproar and the JMB would be called in straight away. But, it is ok to do it in the PP classes without any recriminations. Why do people think they can get away with this and continually cheat by entering the PP classes? These is just a snapshot of what has happened this year and I am sorry Gill, but I think it is completely out of touch with reality to believe that people are actually going to ring up and check their eligibility. We are very fortunate to have two of the most respected people in the showing world helping us - at home. Tthey have done for years. The two most important 'pearls of wisdom' that they imparted was that 'you make your luck at home', and the other being 'find the level that you want to compete at and try to be and the best you can and still enjoy yourselves'. My point being that if we choose to compete in the PP classes and not the Opens, that is our choice, - the same as those who choose to go with a favoured Producer - that is their choice. But, the PP should not be seen as some sort of inferior competition - 2nd class to the Opens. - we all pay the same subscriptions................There is no reason whatsoever, for cheating to be tolerated in these classes. It wouldn't be in the Opens. There would be an enquiry and the outcome published . I have said it before - name and shame, fine them, publicly humiliate them, ban them. Something has to be done so that people like us can be the best that we can amongst like minded, legitimate competitors who are what they say on the tin - honestly, home produced and straight from the bottom of our hearts. It seems that there are many people who do not understand the rules.
|
|
|
Post by CarolineNelson on Jun 18, 2018 17:59:43 GMT
Great clarification! Now can somebody please explain this one to me. I have a niece, whose pony I help her with (owned by her parents). I take it to shows as they both work at weekends and have no transport. However, I don't think she can do PP as I have a horse that is produced. I don't ride it in the ring, but I do own it and yes, I do like to touch it at shows! Said child has nothing to do with any of that. Her pony is a genuine family pony ridden by her and generally loved and plodded on by various other tiny cousins. My daughter could possibly be riding her produced horse at the same show but wouldn't have to touch the home produced pony. I am pretty certain due to my connections, we can't do PP and it seems so wrong. A true family affair. Oh, and the nieces and nephews bit of the ruling is OK, but no mention of aunts and uncles which seems bizarre! One would like to hope that both your Family / extended Family - (and as genuine Aunts & Uncles - plus others in a [similar] position to you) would certainly be allowed to compete as Home Produced. I'm not going to mention which title for which Society But, you ask the question - how far do the rules have to go to preclude, it seems, almost EVERYONE? And, all because it was agreed that those who are not deemed "Professional" should be allowed to have their own classification. Some chose to flaunt those rules. Which creates a mine-field. So very sad, as the classification was, by all relevant Societies, arranged with the best of intentions.
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Jun 18, 2018 19:40:07 GMT
Great clarification! Now can somebody please explain this one to me. I have a niece, whose pony I help her with (owned by her parents). I take it to shows as they both work at weekends and have no transport. However, I don't think she can do PP as I have a horse that is produced. I don't ride it in the ring, but I do own it and yes, I do like to touch it at shows! Said child has nothing to do with any of that. Her pony is a genuine family pony ridden by her and generally loved and plodded on by various other tiny cousins. My daughter could possibly be riding her produced horse at the same show but wouldn't have to touch the home produced pony. I am pretty certain due to my connections, we can't do PP and it seems so wrong. A true family affair. Oh, and the nieces and nephews bit of the ruling is OK, but no mention of aunts and uncles which seems bizarre! Think you do need to speak to BSPS over this scenario. Agree re Aunts & Uncles (see my previous post) & I have brought this up with BSPS so why don't you mention it as well when you speak to them
|
|
|
Post by chloesmum on Jun 19, 2018 7:47:06 GMT
I understand your frustration catkin but the way I would read it is that you definately would not be able to do PP if you have a pony at a producers yard, even though your niece doesn't (if you assist with your nieces pony that is). I don't think anyone who has a pony produced can touch/handle a PP pony, the rule clarified by Janet seems to be family member or another PP competitor. I suppose if this wasn't in place it would open up a whole can of worms. For example some people have ponies at home and child may ride a pony that is produced and under current rules that puts them out of PP. We were in that position when Chloe was younger and we had a very home produced pony but because she rode for other people we were never able to compete in HP/PP. Think you just have to make the choices. I guess it remains fairly straightforward if rules don't allow any connection to producers.
|
|
|
Post by honeypot on Jun 19, 2018 8:13:47 GMT
It does make you think, why bother? If its supposed to about having fun with your children, extended family and friends, I would not want to be keeping a list of who keeps their ponies where, and when they bought and from whom, just on the off chance they help you at a show or at home. I think life has moved on. Very few people keep their ponies at home, most mums work and often to get a pony ready to go showing you have get help even if its just assisted livery,help with plaiting or exercising it because your child has school work to complete. Children have far more homework and tests than even 10yesrs ago when my kids were at school.
|
|
|
Post by cmnli on Jun 19, 2018 8:55:17 GMT
Agree honeypot and it was exactly those reasons we ended up with a producer as I worked full time and Chloe travelled a long way to secondary school. Now we have come full circle and are lucky enough to have ponies at home and can manage (mostly!!) between the 2 of us. we did actually think at the start of the season wow we could be eligible for PP this year but felt it was not worth the hastle. It means we don't have to worry if Chloe rides a pony for someone or if we want to send a pony for some schooling. As I said people have to make their own choices depending on their situation. However I do understand how people get upset by some blatant rule breaking that has been mentioned on here, Good Luck to all those who have qualified for PP RIHS enjoy your day.
|
|
|
Post by Readtherules on Jun 19, 2018 10:11:45 GMT
Thank you Mrs Bushall for coming on here and clarifying some things, your posts are reassuring when you say that complaints are handled carefully and exhibitors are not branded as troublemakers for making a complaint I have previously thought that those who complain are generally seen as the trouble makers and the ones who are cheating seem to get sympathy!! I once made a complaint to a governing body and the competitor was duly eliminated due to the overwhelming evidence. However as it was one of their panel judges I made the complaint about and that person had a number of friends on the council etc. so sadly my name was 'slipped' to them and the complaint was not kept anonymous which was beyond disappointing after finding the courage to put my name to a formal complaint. I disagree that the current rules are without room for interpretation, at the beginning of the year I spoke to a governing body to clarify one of the terms used. The society indicated that I was trying to ‘bend the rules’ and stopped responding which was the very opposite of my reason for clarifying the rule to make 100% sure who could physically hold a pony at a show! This year (as have a number of other people it would seem) I have seen quite obvious breaking of the rules taking place (though I dont believe all are deliberate, some people seem to genuinely read the rules as they wish to interpret them!!), however my previous experience of dealing with societies about these matters means I have well and truly learn't my lesson and cannot trust the same wont happen again. I write this not to discourage others from complaining as gillwales said if no one complains nothing happens. I very much hope that my experience is an unfair representation of a governing bodies enquiry and complaints system but I just felt I needed to highlight that whilst everyone is quick to give the (correct) advice of 'just speak to the governing body' sometimes this isn't so straightforward!
|
|
|
Post by catkin on Jun 19, 2018 13:30:55 GMT
Thanks everybody. Just to say I fed back via our Area Chair (for two years now) re: the aunts and uncles. Each year the feedback is 'yes it is an error' and each year nothing has been done. However, I haven't bothered because I believe I am precluded because I own (not ride) a produced horse and I help my relation (niece) with her pony. I probably should seek definitive clarification, but have always erred on the side of caution when it comes to rules. I just think it is a great shame since this child and her pony have no benefit whatsoever from my daughter having a produced horse. In fact, given this ruling, quite the reverse. Chloe's mum, I see the point on a child having one pony and home and another produced (though I think this is OK with PUK and NPS) but this is far from the case in this situation. We are a family that have shown for generations. My mother died unexpectedly young. What she would have done for her grandchildren (my nieces and nephews) I am trying in some small way to continue, but the rules don't support this. Never mind!
|
|
|
Post by gillwales on Jun 19, 2018 19:23:37 GMT
Catkin, I think it is a crying shame. To me I cannot think that you are breaking the rules, however I am only a member and not an official.
|
|
|
Post by janetbushell on Jun 19, 2018 19:24:32 GMT
Readtherules: I do think it is a shame that you believe your name was leaked. It probably won't reassure you but I genuinely believe your anonymity would be maintained should you wish to ever make a complaint to the BSPS again.
|
|
|
Post by LucyGlitters on Jun 19, 2018 22:02:40 GMT
Just spoken to BSPS regarding Rule 279 which in the hard copy of the 2018 rule book does not have your capitalised extra wording Pinkiepie123 & it should!!!! It does have the correct wording on the internet May I offer my sincere apologies to both yourself & Lucy Glitters over this point. Thank you, for clarifying. I was a bit perplexed as I'm usually pretty good on rules. This one is really important to those of us who show alone. We really do rely on our fellow HP competitors to give us a hand sometimes, e.g. the person next to you in line holding your pony while you get the saddle back on. It would be a terrible to-do if that weren't allowed. I have relied on that sort of help for years and always offer it to others too. It would be a shame if it were ever to be ruled out.
|
|
|
Post by bigmama on Jun 27, 2018 18:20:47 GMT
I know I shouldn't make light of the situation but I cannot help imagining asking a person unknown to me to hold our pony whilst we walked the (whp) course and in those few minutes, an electric current of knowledge passing down the reins from holder to pony turning him from a novice into a Hoys winner! The PP scenario is utterly ridiculous and totally out of hand. A MAJOR rethink is required by the BSPS before next year's rule book is finalised. Good luck with that one!
|
|
|
Post by ponymum on Jun 28, 2018 7:46:51 GMT
It is a shame as Catkin says that she cannot help her niece. I also will not be able to help my god daughter with her pony IF they choose to do pp . Family as JanetBushell points out is now very large and often fragmented where families split up remarry etc etc . This puts quite a lot of combinations out of the running. Perhaps thay do need to rethink pp.
|
|