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Post by frobster on Jun 8, 2009 16:50:13 GMT
As there were some complaints going on in our class on Saturday, thought I'd bring up the subject!
It clearly states on multiple occassions throughout the CHAPS rulebook...
"When the first exhibit has completed its ride assessment the conformation judge will then undertake his/her duties from the same end of the line, and will not assess any animal until after it has been ridden or performed its individual show (conformaton judging MUST NOT start from the opposite end of the line)"
Yet throughout all the qualifiers, the conformation judge began at the opposite end before the animals were either ridden by the judge or performed individual shows.
I for one wasn't too bothered as it chucking it down and was quite glad to break the boredom, however there were several unhappy competitors as it was a health and safety matter, especially with the ponies getting wet backs before saddles on and individual shows.
One competitor pointed this rule out to the conformation judge, but she carried on regardless! I can see why they probably did it this way as the weather was appalling and it got through the class quicker, but I wonder if maybe the judges ought to read their handbooks a little better?
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Post by delliam on Jun 8, 2009 20:21:24 GMT
A more worrying point as far as we were concerned was that some of the marks were added up incorrectly. This was pointed out to someone in the secretarys tent but her reply was ' well it has been a very busy day' It happened to us on another occasion and because you have to wait until after all the classes are finished to get your marks, we missed out on a championship. Not good enough especially in a HOYS class, surely somebody should double check these marks. Another suggestion - could the judges write down the marks themselves rather than tell the steward, as sometimes, I am sure, particulalrly in bad weather conditions, marks can be misheard and the wrong mark written down ......
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Post by mayhem on Jun 9, 2009 7:23:18 GMT
I have to agree with both of the above comments, it is not good enough.
If the rule states something then it must be upheld.
If the points are added up incorrectly then, this needs tobe sorted immediately, with all the time, money, commitment etc., for the marks tobe added up incorrectly this is appalling, we don't even bother to look at marks as i would expect the judge to have signed them off as checked.
If this is true then heads need to roll, not good enough.
What if it were done on intentionally as a favour ( i am not saying this is what happened)
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tessy
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Post by tessy on Jun 9, 2009 7:25:40 GMT
I am fairly sure 2 council members were there to spot this and it will have been reported to CHAPS. I for one would not have stripped before the ride as I wouldn't have been happy saddling up a very wet horse who must have been stiff and caught a chill even with the best efforts to keep dry and warm. I wonder if judges should have to be assessed again every couple of years to ensure they are abreast of new rulings and also not lost their abilities that they were chosen for in the 1st place.
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Post by jinja on Jun 9, 2009 8:35:12 GMT
I personally think it is a good idea to strip a large class from the oppasite end even in ggo weather as it saves time, maybe that is why the judges did it due to the weather conditions, as they did not want to be stood in the ring longer than need be and that also goes for the competitors. You still have to ride your horse after its been stripped so the fact its back gets wet is unavoidable. I am not saying rules should be broken but I do not think that the judges on this occasion are so bad. I was not at the show.
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r.e.d
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Post by r.e.d on Jun 9, 2009 8:35:56 GMT
I wasn't aware of this rule (maybe I need to check my handbook better!!) but in all of the qualifiers I have done so far, I am fairly sure that they have started from the bottom whilst the ones in top have done their shows. Re the marks, delliam I was there when it was pointed out to the person in the secretary tent and heard that remark!! I dont see how hard it is to carry a calculator in the ring It would take about the same time to add up as it does to tap it into a calculator (well it does for me anyway lol)
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Post by nitelife on Jun 9, 2009 9:04:41 GMT
Surely the judges/stewards should no these rules!
I believe there should be someone other then a stewards or judge to write down the marks take them outside the ring then add them up! Then no errors or crossing out of marks can be done!
I rember a few years ago the show would not give the marks out when i recieved them by post there there was many crossings out! with a big black marker!
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r.e.d
Junior Member
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Post by r.e.d on Jun 9, 2009 9:16:45 GMT
I rember a few years ago the show would not give the marks out when i recieved them by post there there was many crossings out! with a big black marker!
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Sara
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Post by Sara on Jun 9, 2009 9:50:45 GMT
Although the ruling is to only strip the horses after their shows sometimes, ie in extreme weather as a judge you have to make a practial descsion and perhaps the judges thought it was fairer to complete the class as quickly as possible so that horses, riders etc can get back to their lorries and dry off and get warm. This is only an opinion as i was not there just going on what the reports said!
As for the mark i think every stewards life would be made easier with the help of a calculator! And as for the crossing out perhaps the mark was heard wrong and the judge corrected it? Or the steward wrote it next to the wrong pony? At least it was rectified in the ring. Not ideal but we have to remember these stewards are volunteers and sometimes human error happens.
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alex
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Post by alex on Jun 9, 2009 14:17:30 GMT
Its amazing what goes on at these qualifiers, personally I think CHAPS should send a Steward to oversee whats going on because clearly judges aren't learning the rules and the stewards appointed by the shows are only interested in making sure the judges get things done as efficiently as possible.
If shows want to host these prestigious qualifiers (and rake in all the income they attract) they should at least make sure things are done properly.
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Post by delliam on Jun 9, 2009 19:42:40 GMT
The rules clearly state that conformation judging must NOT start from the opposite end of the line. It does not state in extreme weather the rules change, otherwise what is the point of having a rule book?
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rufus
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Post by rufus on Jun 9, 2009 22:03:20 GMT
Im reading all this with interest. But MORE alarmingly - ONE steward ran backwards and forwards to collect marks from 2 judges at both ends of the line with the greatest respect to the very capable lady who did this - it was a concern to be asked our number - ages after we had completed both sections!!!
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alex
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Post by alex on Jun 10, 2009 10:31:18 GMT
Im reading all this with interest. But MORE alarmingly - ONE steward ran backwards and forwards to collect marks from 2 judges at both ends of the line with the greatest respect to the very capable lady who did this - it was a concern to be asked our number - ages after we had completed both sections!!! clearly HOYS/CHAPS need to make sure these shows are worthy of holding qualifiers before they let them affiliate!
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Post by piper on Jun 10, 2009 10:55:09 GMT
It's a bit rich to blame the show, I am sure that Midland Counties is a"worthy" show and can't be held responsible when a panel judge makes a decision in the ring after all the judges are the representatives of the societies and as such are chosen from a list supplied by said societies.
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Post by mf on Jun 10, 2009 17:24:28 GMT
The marks fiasco goes on and on
Look what happened at the BSPS winter champs - they awarded the class to the worng person and then had to ring the poor woman up on her mobile while she was on her way home to tell her she hadn't actually qualified for HOYS.
HOw awful is that?
Is there a rule which says a calculator cannot be used?
I have to say the weather at midland co's was horrific. I felt VERY VERY sorry for everyone trying to compete and for the organisers who put in HUGE amounts of effort for the weather to go and ruin things. I think adding up in those conditions must be very difficult but a calculator would make checking easier?
This is now the second marks mess up so far this year in CHAPS HOYS classes so maybe its time to change the system?
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Post by dukeyboy on Jun 10, 2009 18:50:20 GMT
I too was in the class. I was in the middle of the line up and ended up literally throwing my saddle back on my wet through pony as the steward was shouting hurry up it you next.i got on as quickly as poss and straight into my show.but what got me was the fact that on the go round we all went round together and it wasn't the biggest of rings at all and there were 20 plus in the class.at one point we were 3 deep all cantering round.then there was a change of rein and we came to a grinding halt to wait for the others to change their rein and never got going again and they lined us up, oh after pulling about 4 ponies in.I didn't even think the judges were paying much attention to the class on the go round and thought the way they judged the whole class was dangerous and just wanted it over as quickly as possible because of the rain.didnt stay for the marks does anyone have them please
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Post by colourful on Jun 10, 2009 19:07:47 GMT
Having read this - judges should the know the rules inside out and upside down - its bad enough and annoying enough when other competitors expect special dispensation when they break the rules but sorry a judge has a huge responsibility too.
If some judges dont follow the rules because of bad weather ---- well that speaks volumes -
Its rain, not nuclear fall out.
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Post by delliam on Jun 10, 2009 21:25:34 GMT
Midland Counties is a fab show and very worthy, HOWEVER, knowing the size of the classes beforehand, the ring for the coloured classes was not big enough for the amount of horses in the ring. The class should have been split for health and safety issues besides being impossible to judge when horses were cantering round three deep. In the next ring were 5 hacks in the same size ring. There were over 100 horses in the four coloured classes generating over £3,000 in entry fees, perhaps if we paid stewards instead of relying on volounteers that would help. Adding two numbers together should not be that hard a task...
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Post by funcobs on Jun 11, 2009 9:03:44 GMT
I agree with you totally there
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Post by cayo on Jun 11, 2009 14:27:40 GMT
these mistakes happen all too often more than we all realise im sure ,i for one think it only fair that any mistakes are rectified wether rosettes have been awarded or not ,and also that judges should write down their own marks then there can be no mistake with what is actually written .it has happen a few times to us over the years luckily not at a hoys qual or we would be devastated happened just recentley in this instance both judges said they gave us their top mark but somehow we ended up 5th steward wouldnt have it that she may have made a mistake we left it as awards had been handed out and we had another shot next day which we won so smiles all round in the end .
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Post by lils on Jun 11, 2009 15:18:11 GMT
what concerns me about judges/marks/adding up, ( not at this show, but at CHAPS SE) was why were both the judges behind the line up, witht he stewards when the marks where being added up, and kept pointing at certain horses, then back to there scoresheets. It was good weather, so no mistakes should have been made due to the weather making hearing/seeing difficult, I think the adding up should be done in front of the lineup, by the stewards only, then no 'changes' to favour can be made.
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cheeky
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Post by cheeky on Jun 11, 2009 16:15:18 GMT
Personally I found it annoying that in the pony classes the judges swapped phases! What makes it worse is the fact that the judge who then did the ride in the pony classes isn't even a ride judge!!!
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Post by frobster on Jun 11, 2009 16:42:01 GMT
Personally I found it annoying that in the pony classes the judges swapped phases! What makes it worse is the fact that the judge who then did the ride in the pony classes isn't even a ride judge!!! That's a very good point. In the judge's book she is only listed as being allowed to do the conformation section!! Oh dear.
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Post by dukeyboy on Jun 11, 2009 19:07:33 GMT
Well I do hope these judges arn't picked again!!! If we the competitors broke the rules we would soon know about it!!!Will the class be run again seeing as it sounds like a total sham?
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Post by astounded guest on Jun 11, 2009 20:57:06 GMT
I was there watching the small hairy class (not competing i may add). imo there were a number of rules broken as has already been mentioned regarding the strip, also the judges swapped sections and the lady is not down as a ride judge.
The steward appeard to be running back and forth with the marks for ride write it down on one sheet, was there only one sheet??? The ride judge was shouting out the marks for the ride and most competitors and grooms could hear her? i didn't see anyone check the stallion cards prior to entering the ring?
ponies were coming from all places in the line up to do their shows literally leaving some people to throw saddles on and go straight out to do their show, and at the end 2 different riders and a couple of people round the ring heard the steward point to one pony and say what about the ride mark for this one? it hasn't got a mark???
Also the go round was d**n right dangerous, small ring and ponies thundering around 3 deep, surely it should have been split due to health and saftey reasons??? and i know 4 people are sending of letters of complaint to chaps regarding all these issues.
The weather was terrible but even so people had paid a lot of money to enter and rules were broken and everyone deserves a chance to be judged fairly and saftey should be paramount-
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Post by delliam on Jun 11, 2009 21:42:35 GMT
Perhaps someone from CHAPS would like to come on and comment about the questions raised here like the JMB secretary did about height certificates, it might ease the situation and restore some faith in our judging system.
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cheeky
Junior Member
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Post by cheeky on Jun 12, 2009 8:42:09 GMT
To be fair to Chaps , if official letters of complaint have been sent in they wouldn't be able to comment until they have resolved it, I am however assured that the matter is being looked at Xxx
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Post by wornthetshirt on Jun 12, 2009 8:59:47 GMT
I am not on this Panel, but I have sometimes Stewarded for the classes and I'm pleased to say that those judges on those occasions were well versed with the Rulebook!
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Babieca
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Post by Babieca on Jun 12, 2009 9:49:00 GMT
Is there HOYS qualifiers for in-hand coloureds?
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Post by piper on Jun 12, 2009 9:56:40 GMT
If it's a clear breach of rules then I am sure CHAPS will have to deal with it, I doubt very much tho whether it could ever result in a re run of the class. More likely to be a reprimand of the judges involved or a rule change, after all other societies do the either end method.
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