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Post by guess who on Apr 8, 2007 15:57:37 GMT
i have just come back from the bsps champs. in the m and m's i have seen some very "un-typy" ponies win. a sec A has fine bones and points its toes for example. Do judges not care about this? i have a highland which is everything a highland should be but its movement is exceptional??? i just want some different views cheers!!!
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type should come into it
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Post by type should come into it on Apr 8, 2007 18:22:07 GMT
i think a lot of ridden judges do go for the performance over the actual true 2 type pony these days! like in classes where marks are used if 2 ponies have the same total of marks they go of the ridden mark rather than the conformation and type but i think the true type should come into it! a lot of m&m are losing there type these days! suppose its judges opinions some just dismiss the lack of bone and just see the big moving pony!
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Post by agree on Apr 8, 2007 18:29:02 GMT
I totally agree with above sometimes a striking flashy pony with extravagant movement takes the judges eye away from the faults and whether it is a good stamp of breed!!
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roxy
Junior Member
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Post by roxy on Apr 8, 2007 19:52:35 GMT
if a judge is judging show then they mark on show only not type it is up to confirmation judge to mark on type.
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Post by Guestless on Apr 8, 2007 20:16:53 GMT
if a judge is judging show then they mark on show only not type it is up to confirmation judge to mark on type. I have to disagree - while the conformation judge has an important task as their marks relate purely to type/conformation, I think the ride judge should be marking according to how the pony performs related to its type. By that I mean they should have an idea of how each breed should move and mark the pony based on how well it matches that.
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Post by guess who on Apr 9, 2007 9:09:11 GMT
i also think that the marks should either 1) go back to 40 and 60. in one of my classes i came third and i got 4 marks more than the one that won for performance as it stopped and chucked its head up in its show but its conformation marks brought it right up.
2) keep the marks 50 / 50 but seperate the conformation marks and give a mark out of 20 for how typy it is. And how its structured according to how they SHOULD be and then mark out of 30 the general conformation.
if that sounds silly then just say i dont know weather i have explained it well.
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Post by girly on Apr 9, 2007 10:11:34 GMT
The defination of breed type is interpreted in so many different ways by judges. You only have to look at breed in hand classes judged by breed judges to see this. In a ridden class the performance should always be the deciding factor otherwise why bother riding them at all.
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Post by Guestless on Apr 9, 2007 19:16:05 GMT
In a ridden class the performance should always be the deciding factor otherwise why bother riding them at all. I do agree with that, but I still go back to the fact the ponies' performance should be judged according to how they are supposed to move and the highest marks awarded accordingly. I'm quite concerned about the rising number of natives that are moving more like riding horses and hunters than mountain and moorland ponies.....and yes I do always go on about it, but it is a bugbear of mine.
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 9, 2007 22:56:30 GMT
I agree that type comes into it, of course, and we should look towards the breed standards so we actually keep distinct recognisable breeds, but remember some of the "traditional types" were built for a different job - I'm thinking of Hipos here. Some may suit your idea of a breed type movement but they don't half jigger your back and also get knackered legs becasue they weren't originally selected for the type of work we are asking of them today. People are always slagging off ones that cover the ground and actually go up off their forehand, but at least they are fantastic to ride.
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lala
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Post by lala on Apr 10, 2007 11:06:53 GMT
I agree that type comes into it, of course, and we should look towards the breed standards so we actually keep distinct recognisable breeds, but remember some of the "traditional types" were built for a different job - I'm thinking of Hipos here. Some may suit your idea of a breed type movement but they don't half jigger your back and also get knackered legs becasue they weren't originally selected for the type of work we are asking of them today. People are always slagging off ones that cover the ground and actually go up off their forehand, but at least they are fantastic to ride. Horses riding off the forhand is of course a good thing, however it shouldnt change thier action. Which from what a I gather is the main bugbear with some of the M&M's today. Particularly highlands? You shouldnt like a breed for type and characteristics, weather is comfortable or not to ride. I can suggest if a main priority is comfort then go for a riding horse, if that is what suits you. I would personaly much rather have something that goes correctly and moves according to breed type over comfort. Having said that I have ridden every type of large M&M and they have all been comfortable to ride, even though their way of going differed somewhat.
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Post by Guestless on Apr 10, 2007 11:22:03 GMT
Some may suit your idea of a breed type movement but they don't half jigger your back and also get knackered legs becasue they weren't originally selected for the type of work we are asking of them today. People are always slagging off ones that cover the ground and actually go up off their forehand, but at least they are fantastic to ride. I understand where you are coming from and I'm certainly not suggesting that we look for Hipos that go along with their noses in the air or on the ground and put them at the top of the line. I don't have a problem with Hipos covering ground so long as they're still showing movement that is typical of their breed, ie with a bit of knee action, and not daisy cutting. I know that it can take a while to get some of the heavier breeds to accept the bridle, but I think it can still be done without totally changing the way they move but rather by enhancing their natural movement. There were several successful Hipos last year that were not daisy cutting, ie May Rose, but likewise there were a few who were not IMO displaying movement that comes naturally to such a heavy-set build. There have been all kinds of horror stories mooted to get ponies to daisy-cut, ie wet bandages on legs while lungeing, and I think that is shocking.
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mac
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Post by mac on Apr 10, 2007 23:34:41 GMT
"You shouldnt like a breed for type and characteristics, weather is comfortable or not to ride. I can suggest if a main priority is comfort then go for a riding horse, if that is what suits you. I would personaly much rather have something that goes correctly and moves according to breed type over comfort."
What a load of tosh lala! Why would you want to ride anything that isn't comfortable? You can school them to go correctly and light to hand and leg but if they hit the ground hard they will never be comfortable. A decent M&M is as comfortable as a riding horse.
I think the rumours about schooling ponies in bandages to make them daisy cut is also rubbish. (Would love to know which mythical owner/producer is supposed to have done this??) I think half of the ponies do it because they are so forced into an outline too early instead of being allowed to move freely through their shoulders.
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lala
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Post by lala on Apr 11, 2007 10:00:17 GMT
I think you have misunderstood what I was trying to say, or I just didnt say it clearly. First of all I was ment to say, you 'should' like a breed for it type and characteristics, not 'shouldn't'.... and i was not saying that comfort is not important, of course it is. I just think ponies should not be schooled out of their natural paces/gate. A welsh should move like a welsh cob and a highland should move like a highland etc etc, Obviously with the right schooling they will go correctly and cover the ground and be light on their feet! I actualy think a decent correct M&M is MORE comfortable then a riding horse..............that why I ride them!
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Post by hairypony on Apr 11, 2007 10:37:20 GMT
So many people today refer to the heavier types of highland pony that tend to do well in-hand as "traditional" - if you look at Sally Lesley Melville's book "100 Years of Highland Show Champions" you will see that many of the first "Highland Ponies" were much lighter and more athletic than the ones winning the same show today! In Hand in all breeds/sports for horses & ponies should be the assessment of an animals sutability for its JOB. People must remember that native ponies esp. highlands were originally bred to be USEFUL and PRACTICAL eg. a fat highland with no withers & short neck would be no good for a deer saddle up and down the hills! Also needed for ridden saddle and a good shoulder also makes a more comfortable ride. Daisy cutting paces may look lovely but you need a LITTLE (knee) action for rough terrain etc. They were originally bred for lots of uses inc. riding, driving, stalking. Only my thoughts as I live in the hills & bogs so you soon see what actually makes a good riding pony!!!!
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rtk
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Post by rtk on Apr 11, 2007 11:09:55 GMT
I agree hairypony, we live in hilly country, stony terrain and bogs. You would expect Highlands to be excellent but a couple I know are a liability on the moors, they stumble and one has been down on its knees a few times. I'm sure thats not what the breed is about.
My Welsh X with plenty of knee action can be ridden on any terrain on the buckle ends.
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Post by hairypony on Apr 11, 2007 12:10:42 GMT
The sad thing is that most ponies are being bred according to what ponies win in the showring and as the vast majority of the breeding ponies are only shown in hand not ridden, there seems to be a gap evolving between "Traditional" and "Riding" type, when in fact the two should both be aiming for the same thing! It is also surprising how few breeders (most of whom also judge in hand!) ride/have ridden much in the past and they maybe don't always appreciate the characteristics that make a pony good to ride. Most people nowdays seem to want to buy highland ponies for riding and having fun on though, so it will be interesting to see how the breed develops. There are however some ponies who do well in hand that are also ridden stars ;-)
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Post by greymare on Apr 11, 2007 12:41:56 GMT
I totally agree with hairypony - why do people buying young hipos to ride go to the studs which do well in hand but never work the ponies? One of the best known studs which has been going now for over 40 years never ever breaks any of their ponies! Surely you are then buying a "pig in a poke", it could have the right attitude and abilities to make a good ridden pony, but equally, even if properly broken and trained, it could turn out to be bolshy, uncomfortable and difficult to keep sound! Another myth that many people believe is that hipos have to be of the "lighter" type to make good ridden ponies. This is not true - but they have to be put together well and move freely. My pet hate is for some m&m judges to be actively putting up the hipos who do extended or lenghthened strides in trot, in their shows. This is WRONG and it doesnt really matter how they were trained to do it. Hipos should have a free trot which is neither daisy cutting nor has too much knee action.
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Post by Guestless on Apr 11, 2007 13:59:33 GMT
Hear, hear hairypony.
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steve
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Post by steve on Apr 11, 2007 15:33:00 GMT
Problem as I see it is some breeders are now breeding for a market. Once upon a time they all used to strive for type and the correct movement for that type. The market (as with any product) dictates what form that product takes to satisfy the present market. Competitors and Judges over the years have changed the market to what it is today leaving some breeders with little choice but to follow suit or give up. I.e. Judges put up a certain type consistently that does not necessarily move correctly for it’s breed, sooner or later competitors, especially the unknowledgeable ones seek out that type and movement as they think that is the way forward. The breeders then find that the very true to type ponies are harder to sell so change their attitudes towards breeding to satisfy the market. Having been in showing and ponies for the last 25yrs I have seen this happen across the board. Before anyone jumps on my back, yes there are still plenty of breeders out there breeding for type and correct movement and there are many fine examples around. What concerns me is that we may be going down a road where there is no turning back if current trends continue. Just my two penneth worth.
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Post by lexxieloo123 on Apr 11, 2007 18:12:58 GMT
If i own a highland that has exceptional movement should it be knocked down or gain more marks??? And is there anyone else that thinks the marks for MnMs be 60 40 just like showponies and show hunters?
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Post by Guestless on Apr 11, 2007 21:10:46 GMT
If i own a highland that has exceptional movement should it be knocked down or gain more marks??? And is there anyone else that thinks the marks for MnMs be 60 40 just like showponies and show hunters? Depends what you mean by exceptional movement....there are some really nice free moving Highlands that I think should get extra marks over the slightly stuffier type. However I'm not a fan (in case you haven't already guessed) of the flicky-toed Highlands as it's not IMO enhancement of their natural movement. I think a 60/40 split would run the risk of moving the winning ponies even further away from matching the breed standard than at present so IMO it would be a bad thing. I know that others will disagree, but that is fine - we are all entitled to think as individuals on here
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Post by blackie on Apr 12, 2007 6:53:06 GMT
In my view, regardless of where the published mark split may be, unless the conformation judge is blindfolded until he or she is called upon to judge said conformation, there will always be a higher percentage of marking going to the performance of pony and rider, it is only human nature to be influenced by:-
a) pony with great presence b) outstanding ride in initial ride round c) good presentation
and tongue in cheek (but it happens)
d) known faces
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Post by haggis on Apr 12, 2007 12:55:20 GMT
for what it is worth i think it should stay the same, i agree with guestlass we will lose type if we go down the BSPS show pony , hunter pony route IE the 60/40 split - or to be shot down in flames what about doing away with the marks all together as many people think they are open to be manipulated by "not quite straight judges", so what then is the point of them -- so start shooting!!!!
i like the 50/50 split as we do 99.999% get the right type at the top
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Post by hairypony on Apr 12, 2007 13:05:16 GMT
It is inreresiting that Sports Horse GB have guidelines for judges with a list of priorities when assessing animals and TYPE is at the top, above conformation and movement etc! Still trying to find the book as I can't remember the order of the rest of the list. It does all depend however on what type the particular judge thinks is correct for that breed e.g. the movement for specific breeds and their depth of knowlege of ALL the breeds in order to compare them. Judges may have slightle differing opinions of what is true for a breed type an the discussion of highland ponies is a good example. Judges have a huge responsibility as breeders and buyers of native ponies are often influenced by what wins shows so judging can influence trends in breeding ponies. I suppose that's what makes showing so interesting - judges aren's right or wrong, they are just being asked for thier oppinion!
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steve
Junior Member
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Post by steve on Apr 12, 2007 13:26:14 GMT
In reply to the post by hairypony I understand where you are coming from but judges for the M&Ms do have guidelines as laid out in the breed description. As for other comments on marks 60/40 or 50/50 I don’t care less as they are a means to an end. We all go on about judge’s opinion and yes it does boil down to that. But at the end of the day it has to be an educated opinion or we will lose type and way of going.
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Post by manes&muzzles on Apr 12, 2007 13:50:20 GMT
As someone said earlier though, it is a ridden class, otherwise why bother riding them if we are not going to reward a good performance? ? I think it is unfair of some people to say that 'us riders' cannot train our native breeds to be a bit more interesting. Basically what some of you are saying is that if we school our ponies to a high standard, and in some cases that is asking for extended trot, then we shouldn't get rewarded with higher marks. It seems as if the 'good riders' who can train their ponies to do more enhanced movements get slated. I was at a Judges Seminar a few weeks ago and it was refreshing to see how many judges turned up to learn even more, and they were encouraged, as judges, to reward someone that does put in a good performance, and not just the bog standard cantering on both legs.
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Post by clobo121082 on Apr 12, 2007 14:55:34 GMT
hear hear i really agree with the above post. Don't get me wrong i do also think many of the breeds are moving away from the more tradational type but is this is just fashion really and as we all know fashion always goes full circle!! ;-) I think the performance of a pony is of great importance and by reading posts on this forum it seems that most people get very annoyed being beaten by something that is naughty or goes badly so therefore shldnt we be rewarding these ponies that go correctly and may have that slight edge in the performance stakes but may lack a slight element of type. Otherwise it might as well be an in-hand class?? Although there are breed standards as people have said these are open to judges interpretation as what may be a welshy head to one may not be to another etc Personally I think the section b's have changed a lot and this is one breed that judges seem to want excessively flashy movement in even if the pony lacks what i would call the typical welsh type. I also think this is one section which has been slightly changed by the introduction of a lot of show pony judges as the section b is most similair and usually bred into the shp/sp etc a lot of judges expect them to be more show pony like especially in there way of going and this has changed the breed type. We just aim to get a pony that we believe is close to the native type, brings us pleasure and screams its breed to you and hope the judges like it! At the end of the day i do believe native types are prone to certain 'fashions' like every show animal and each year a new type will be the in thing.
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Post by pho3nix on Apr 12, 2007 15:19:34 GMT
i have just come back from the bsps champs. in the m and m's i have seen some very "un-typy" ponies win. a sec A has fine bones and points its toes for example. Do judges not care about this? i have a highland which is everything a highland should be but its movement is exceptional??? i just want some different views cheers!!! the other week i was at a show watching the Novice ridden. There were some nice ponies in but i have to say i was very shocked when it came to the placing.... i can only say the judge prefered the more stocky working type over the better moving pretty ponies. Dont get me wrong, some of the worker types were lovely, but 2 of the really good movers, pretty ponies weren't even placed...
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Post by gem4eva123 on Apr 12, 2007 16:19:57 GMT
the other week i was at a show watching the Novice ridden. There were some nice ponies in but i have to say i was very shocked when it came to the placing.... i can only say the judge prefered the more stocky working type over the better moving pretty ponies. Dont get me wrong, some of the worker types were lovely, but 2 of the really good movers, pretty ponies weren't even placed... it would be boring if we all liked the same thing though!!
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Post by braveheart on Apr 12, 2007 21:23:25 GMT
Breeders will know that you can put the same two ponies together and the progeny can be so different. Different colours, different markings, temperament AND DIFFERENT PACES. Should a horse that seem to be lighter on his feet (plus be well schooled) be penalised. I think not........
My personal opinion is I like to see ponies off the forehand, especially the highlands and moving freely, not plodding along like that are hacking round the village. I most definately cannot see any harm in any extension, whatever the breed. However I do sometimes think that some of the Welsh D's do not go correctly they sometime think speed is good, and never seem to engage the hindquarters.
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