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Post by justme on Apr 12, 2007 21:48:38 GMT
Highlands moving freely is what anyone would expect of the breed including the highland society. We are talking ponies being pushed beyond their natural movement here. From your post Brave heart I presume you think that is ok?
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Post by Guestless on Apr 13, 2007 9:03:42 GMT
i can only say the judge prefered the more stocky working type over the better moving pretty ponies. Sounds like my kind of judge, lol! Seriously though, I think it is important we remember that each breed is different and just because something moves better than another breed, doesn't mean it is better in terms of performance. Many of our breeds have workmanlike paces and don't look as flashy to some people - does that mean they should always be beaten than the flashy-moving Section B with its pretty head? IMO it's vital that judges pitch each pony against its breed standard and NOT against each other (unless of course they are the same breed). As with any ridden class a good performance should receive its just reward. Problem is in some cases the performance is nothing like expected from that breed yet it is still rewarded. That in turn winds up the purists. A bog standard trot and canter from a pony going correctly for its breed is more pleasing to me than an all singing and dancing performance from a pony that has been forced out of its natural movement. Why on earth have the breed societies put in writing the way a pony should move then some one try and make it move different to that. If this does happen the pony should be penalized, not rewarded. Couldn't agree more so it's definitely not "just you"!
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Post by ponygirl on Apr 13, 2007 9:13:45 GMT
I attended a judges conference with my pony recently. In the in-hand section I was told he was just right weight wise and another pony was pointed out to be too fat. Under saddle one of the attendees said that mine now looked fat - although most others said he looked just right. Compared to some of the ponies in the ring recently he looks like a RSPCA case and yet still the overweight ones win - despite all the talk of not rewarding fat ponies sadly it is still happening
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lala
Newbie
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Post by lala on Apr 13, 2007 10:55:41 GMT
There is a difference between having a well schooled pony and one that has been schooled to move out of its natural gate.
What people need to remember is that with ridden showing you are not showing a riding horse you a riding a pony that is representative of its breed ( if that makes sense)
According to some of the posts here I can take a horse that resembles a cart horse or a donkey, that has been schooled to do the most amazing extended or 'big' trotting work.........and be awarded for this. Im sorry but I do not agree!
A pony that is true to type, moves according to breed standards and provides a well schooled performnce should be at the top of the line..........above lesser typey ponies that move not according to their breed description.
A lot of cobs have big trots and extravegant movement, yet how many of them are schooled correctly, how many of them are engaging their back ends???
As stated in an earlier post, it is much more pleasing to see a pony that fits its breed description, is true to type and does a good show. Judges and novice showing people need to look beyond ponies that appear 'flashy' and actualy look at the pony.
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Post by braveheart on Apr 13, 2007 12:03:07 GMT
I compete in affiliated dressage with my highland as well as showing and showjumping. To me he is an alrounder with lots of ability. The art of dressage is to get ANY horse to move to the best of their ability, freely off the forehand be obedient and responsive to ride you are not changing their gait at all.
Are you saying that when I do a showing class I have to try and forget this and if not should I be penalised. The highland gait would be the same, but in my opinion I would of got the best out of that animal should a horse that plods along on the forehand should be above me. Does not presence and candence come into this at all.
Does that mean once I have taught my horse to walk trot and canter on the right leg I have to stop there...... how boring!!!!!!!
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lala
Newbie
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Post by lala on Apr 13, 2007 13:06:09 GMT
I compete in affiliated dressage with my highland as well as showing and showjumping. To me he is an alrounder with lots of ability. The art of dressage is to get ANY horse to move to the best of their ability, freely off the forehand be obedient and responsive to ride you are not changing their gait at all. Are you saying that when I do a showing class I have to try and forget this and if not should I be penalised. The highland gait would be the same, but in my opinion I would of got the best out of that animal should a horse that plods along on the forehand should be above me. Does not presence and candence come into this at all. Does that mean once I have taught my horse to walk trot and canter on the right leg I have to stop there...... how boring!!!!!!! I dont know what you have been reading? No one has said anything about horses not going correctly, or moving freely off the forhand.............indeed these are desired traits within ridden showing. As long as your highlind moves like a highland should, and during your show you can exhibit some 'fancy footwork' then no you shouldnt be penalised. What people are saying is that some ponies have flashy paces and thats about it.......yet they get placed, eventhough they are not type .
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Post by braveheart on Apr 13, 2007 16:46:09 GMT
As I find this topic intersting could someone tell me where I can find the breed description of the Highland that includes the gait. I have looked on the Highland breed society website and they dont mention movement.
On the NPS website is says "straight free and wihout undue knee acion" which I assume is correct.
By the way LaLa I was giving my opinion, which I believe is what this site is all about.
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Post by ponygirl on Apr 13, 2007 17:53:45 GMT
Forgive me Justme but not sure if you realise there is a life outside of the showring!!!! As much as people think it is - showing is not life and death.
So Braveheart does everything with her Highland - good for her I say. Highlands are true all round ponies and life if pretty dull when you just have to go round the outside of a ring and then ride a simple figure of eight - especially when the ponies are capable of so much more.
Also it may interest you that in order to do lengthened stides you don't have to have "flicky toes" you simply lengthen the stride and frame without qickening. Have you never watched ponies free in the field? You will see them lengthen and shorten their own stride naturally - according to the terrain of the field.
I don't see why you have to knock people for having fun and enjoying their ponies as surely that is what having ponies is all about - or is supposed to be!
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Post by braveheart on Apr 13, 2007 17:54:15 GMT
Just me - I have my pony for fun, it was bought as an allrounder and is exceedingly good at all the things I ask. That is your perogative to have jack of all trades and master of one, but I dont beleive the highland was bred to do just one job. Its versitility is one of its traits, whether its carry a stag on its shoulder or treking in the glens.
Extended trot is not a bred type it is something that is taught and a pony will flick if asked for a big extension. No I didnt study the breed type when I bought my boy, as I bought him because I liked him, he just happened to be very versitile and had won quite a lot in hand at major shows before I bought him, so I assumed he would be of good type. Also I was surprised that the Highland Breed Society hadnt described movement, seeing as everyone was getting so hot under the collar about it.
What is your problem in asking for the bred description? I never once said I was an expert, I assumed that you and LaLa are.
Why are you both getting so worked up, it is only my opinion as I stated earlier, I am entitled to it.
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Post by ponygirl on Apr 13, 2007 17:56:24 GMT
I'm with you Braveheart and have given you some Karma (see above post) - no doubt mine will drop shortly!!!
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Post by Guestless on Apr 13, 2007 18:01:01 GMT
Also it may interest you that in order to do lengthened stides you don't have to have "flicky toes" you simply lengthen the stride and frame without qickening. Have you never watched ponies free in the field? You will see them lengthen and shorten their own stride naturally - according to the terrain of the field. I agree with this statement too - I have no problem with natives showing some form of extension but I hark back again to the fact that it is fine when it is within their natural movement. I can't recall ever watching Highlands in the field flicking their toes, but yes I have watched them naturally going into an extended trot. IMO if a Highland pony flicks its toes in extended trot then it is being pushed out of its natural movement.
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Post by ponygirl on Apr 13, 2007 18:03:41 GMT
Just found this on the Highland pony website:
"The Highland Pony is one of the world's most versatile breeds. It really is a pony for all occasions and Highland owners know this. The Highland can be found in almost every avenue of equestrian activities."
Maybe Justme should suggest that the Highland Pony Society edit this so that it says "the Highland Pony should only be used for showing"
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Post by ponygirl on Apr 13, 2007 18:24:54 GMT
Justme - it was you who dissed Braveheart for doing more than one thing with her pony - "jack of all trades - master of none". People like you need to keep your nasty opinions on what others choose to do with their ponies to yourself.
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Post by braveheart on Apr 13, 2007 18:43:20 GMT
Also amiee and braveheart sound like mother and daughter Close am I Fraid not, but I would like to add that I would be proud to have her as a daughter. I think she is one of the best riders around at the moment. All her ponies go lovely and look a pleasure to ride and from what I have read of her posts she knows her business. Why are you going of track this is not about whos who its about traditional types have you some hidden agenda?
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melody
Junior Member
Posts: 186
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Post by melody on Apr 13, 2007 19:41:40 GMT
I would rather not see a jack of all trades just the master of one showing in the ridden classes. Horses for courses springs to mind.
Justme. I too take offense to what you have said!
Dunedin Harris springs to mind! He won Olympia in 1999 and the week before he went south, he won a Show Jumping class against the horses. He competed regularly at Dressage, and was even in the Riding Club event team! In 2000, he went to HOYS and was M&M WHP of the Year.
Other that are also well worthy of a mention, are Trowan Callan, who went several times to HOYS and regularly competes at Arena events etc, and going into the past, Sorn of Glenbuckie who also went to Olympia, but represented the P.C in all other disciplines. They were/are all good examples of their breed. A good pony with the correct work and able jockey can have many strings to it's bow!
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Post by johnwayne on Apr 13, 2007 20:34:10 GMT
Re Dunedin Harris: Also a successful driving pony!
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Post by Guestless on Apr 13, 2007 22:01:53 GMT
They were/are all good examples of their breed. Yep, all lovely ponies.........and none of them flick their toes but still managed to be successful! Shock, horror!
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Post by hairypony on Apr 14, 2007 8:33:15 GMT
Here here Melody! As you have said - the proof of the pudding is in the eating and there are several great highland ponies out there to prove it!
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Post by gem4eva123 on Apr 14, 2007 8:53:11 GMT
Would just like to add that we have a highland, who is now semi-retired after having a very successful show career. When we first started showing, we also did alot of dressage and didn't know any better than to have our highlands trained so that they could do a fab extended trot - and yes, have that final flick of the toe included in the movement. Also, didnt know any better than to include this movement in the showring also. We soon came to learn that some judges really disliked this movement from him and was told a few times that he 'doesnt move like a traditional highland', some however loved it and thought that it was amazing a highland could actually move like this. Now however, i think the general opinion of judges is seeming to be that they dont like this movement in highlands, and although i will continue to train all ours to the standard where they are capable of showing this movement, i will save it for the dressage arena and not for the show ring!
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melody
Junior Member
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Post by melody on Apr 14, 2007 9:56:36 GMT
Gem4eva123,
I think this is the best approach too. Nobody is saying that hairies shouldn't be able to do extended paces, but they are more appropriate in the dressage arena, or for fun out riding, rather than in the show ring.
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Post by Enthusiast on Apr 14, 2007 11:52:26 GMT
Gem4eva123, I think this is the best approach too. Nobody is saying that hairies shouldn't be able to do extended paces, but they are more appropriate in the dressage arena, or for fun out riding, rather than in the show ring. Sorry Melody but i disagree with this particular point. A native pony should show an extended pace so long as this is within their breed type, description & conformation guidelines. Certainly many of the breeds do have a natural extension. I agree that a pony should not show something in the showring which is not typical of its breed & which the pony has been "trained" to do i.e. extended trot which is forced out of a natural pace with flicked front toes. This doesn't mean that the pony shouldn't know how to to do it, if thats what the owner wants to do with their pony. My ponies & I are trained by a dressage trainer who has a particular interest in native ponies, mine all do fancy dressage movements, but i use them as training aids to get the most from my ponies in the ring & also to keep them interested & learning & to be honest it keeps me on the ball! It is intersting that highlands inparticular have been the main topic of this thread, perhaps i have missed something, but to my mind their are culprits in every breed. To the person that insinuated that a pony should be kept for the show ring, & before you jump down my throat that is how you came across, i have to disagree. I have ponies which have been to HOYs & Olympia stood in my field. One at the ripe old age of 23 was a HOYs & Olympia finalist, finishing in the placings at both. He is a side saddle equitation champion winning at the side saddle champs, he has represented his breed in a dressage display to music trained by J L-C, he drove, competed in dressage, pleasure rides you name it he's done it & my what a happy pony i have. He was master of all of his trades.
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melody
Junior Member
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Post by melody on Apr 14, 2007 13:17:24 GMT
Enthusiast,
When I said Hairies, I was thinking Highlands, fells, dales, exmoors shetlands, in other words the breeds that are heavier in their type, or are untrimmed. I should have made myself clear! Sorry! Others ie the welshies often have a very natural extension, although some are pushed out of their natural stride. Like you, I also think there are great examples of a versatile pony in all breeds, and there are also culprits of the unnatural paces in every breed.
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Post by Guestless on Apr 14, 2007 16:15:49 GMT
A native pony should show an extended pace so long as this is within their breed type, description & conformation guidelines. Now however, i think the general opinion of judges is seeming to be that they dont like this movement in highlands, and although i will continue to train all ours to the standard where they are capable of showing this movement, i will save it for the dressage arena and not for the show ring! gem, I can't agree with everything you say (but that's okay cos we're allowed to disagree on here!) but you do sound as if you have a sensible approach.
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Post by Enthusiast on Apr 14, 2007 17:22:32 GMT
Hi Melody
I still believe that every pony is able to extend to some degree. I guess i should clarify that by extension i mean a lengthening of stride. Ever watched a herd of Exmoors come in? Mine certainly knows how to do it when she is showing off to the boys in the next door field. Speaking for the fell pony that too should have some extension at trot. Fell ponies are renowned for their trotting paces, indeed the trotting races of bygone years have recently been revived. To compete in these races the ponies don't just trot fast but lengthen their strides. In the same way if you ever have the opportunity to sit in with someone driving a fell you will feel that natural extension kick in.
Each breed is so very different & must be judged on its individual merits. The important factor in this debate is that the people doing the judging have enough understanding of each of the breeds to be able to do this. Learning where our native ponies come from, why they evolved & the jobs that they have carried out over the years gives us far more insight into their true capabilities.
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melody
Junior Member
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Post by melody on Apr 14, 2007 20:23:38 GMT
Enthusiast, Thanks for clarifying and I do understand and can picture what you mean. This is where these sites can lead to confusion and confrontation, as what we picture and what we write can mean a completely different thing. Yes I agree, all breeds have a natural extension, especially when they are moving with complete freedom, or excited! I picture the un natural extension we are talking about as the forced medium trot....often too fast and on the forehand, that we see in the show ring. Now before the few that can do this well jump on me, notice I said often not always! I think those that can do it well, should continue to use it to their advantage in the dressage arena, but go for the more natural pace in the show ring.
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Post by ponygirl on Apr 15, 2007 8:03:17 GMT
Here's the British Dressage definition:
"The horse covers as much ground as possible. Maintaining the same cadence, he lenfthens his steps to the utmost as a result of great impulsion from the hind quarters. The riders allows the horse, remaining "on the bit", without leaning on it, to lengthen his frame and gain ground. The movement of the fore and hind legs should be similar (parallel) in the forward movement of the extension. The whole movement should be well balanced and the transition to collected or working trot should be smoothly executed by taking more weight on the hind quarters."
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Post by braveheart on Apr 15, 2007 8:53:20 GMT
Obviously I will only show him under judges that have performances high on their agenda. I do feel that breed type is breed type and if a pony stripped conforms to that, whether you do dressage to improve movement, and yes lenthening can sometimes produce extra extension (what you call flicky toes) then they should not be penalised. At the end of the day when a pony is naked that is when you know how typey it is. I dont think this thread is going to come to any agreement and I think we should agree to disagree. I like mine the way he is and I love him whatever.
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Post by lexxieloo123 on Apr 15, 2007 18:18:28 GMT
Breeders will know that you can put the same two ponies together and the progeny can be so different. Different colours, different markings, temperament AND DIFFERENT PACES. Should a horse that seem to be lighter on his feet (plus be well schooled) be penalised. I think not........ My personal opinion is I like to see ponies off the forehand, especially the highlands and moving freely, not plodding along like that are hacking round the village. I most definately cannot see any harm in any extension, whatever the breed. However I do sometimes think that some of the Welsh D's do not go correctly they sometime think speed is good, and never seem to engage the hindquarters. Hey!! im the person who started this thread and i think that some people have mis-understood me. I dont mean that if a pony or horse is well schooled and lighter on its feet should be penalised i am just sayin that should it not be considered in the conformation marks how a pony or horses conformation is agaisnt it traditional breed type and not on JUST the big movement it has or the pretty head it has. Is this more clear if anyone doesnt get the grasp of what i mean just say.
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brs
Newbie
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Post by brs on Apr 15, 2007 19:35:34 GMT
Many interesting points made, I am another who likes ponies true to type and I firmly believe this does not mean a compromise in movement.
Elaborate leg action is generally taught not bred even the nicest of types can do it if you press the right button, however I don't think the show ring is the place for this.
I think it is wonderful that our native breeds can be successful multi purpose equines but again I don't see why this should compromise traditional types.
Breeding is greatly influenced by what goes through the showring if performance takes over from conformation and type we are going to witness very different breeding trends probably to the detriment of the longivity of our hardy native breeds.
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