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Post by Touchy on May 10, 2007 10:17:21 GMT
Can anyone tell me what rules different societies and breed societies have about judges touching ponies in inhand classes. Thanks alot!
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Post by cracker on May 10, 2007 10:35:44 GMT
I did not know that there were any rules about judges touching in hand ponies. Mine is still nervous of strangers so going to have fun on weekend if judge decides to have a prod? You sound as if you have a problem with yours.
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Post by No Touching on May 10, 2007 13:06:58 GMT
I was under the impression that judges are not allowed to touch ponies when they are judging them, under any circumstances?
Cant remember where I heard/read this, but I do remember a debate in H&H about this, with particular reference to the judging of hairy/traditional types and hunter/riding types, in that witht he haries they have the lots more hair up and down their legs, therefore often obscuring the view a little and some judges like to feel down the legs.......
I personaly think that judges do not need to touch the horse for anything.....
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Post by julie on May 10, 2007 13:42:21 GMT
I'm under the impression too that judges cant do the splint feel etc but was told (by a well known judge) that it was mainly due to Health and Safety and the possible spread of skin disorders ...or maybe I've just remembered it wrong!
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Post by Touchy on May 10, 2007 14:16:30 GMT
The touching rule varies from breed society to breed society & as far as i am aware the likes of NPS, PUK & BSPS discourage it.
I agree that you should not touch a pony to try & find something which you cannot see but with some of the native breeds it would be impossible to judge some of the most important conformation points without touching. As an example a fell pony judge will usually pick up a foot.
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Post by blackie on May 10, 2007 16:25:16 GMT
The major reason for running a hand down a Fells leg is to ascertain whether it has soft straight silky feather, not like many of the course haired Fells that seem to do well today.
Many judges would do well to read the Fell society scale of points and penalise those with nasty heavy horse feather!
I'm all for touching, but on youngsters a wise judge will ask first.
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Post by Fell Fan on May 10, 2007 16:32:51 GMT
The major reason for running a hand down a Fells leg is to ascertain whether it has soft straight silky feather, not like many of the course haired Fells that seem to do well today. Many judges would do well to read the Fell society scale of points and penalise those with nasty heavy horse feather! I'm all for touching, but on youngsters a wise judge will ask first. You don't need to run your hand down a fell ponies leg to tell whether it has course feather or not you can see it, if you know what you are looking for!!!!
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Post by fjudge on May 10, 2007 17:23:10 GMT
I've also witnessed a few years ago a judge walking up the back of a line up of a class of lead rein ponies and slapping every pony on the bottom, I was worried about this as thought my pony would kick her into the grandstand, but fortunately all was OK and we won the class
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Post by Touch on May 10, 2007 17:41:12 GMT
Some breed society judges notes state judges must touch the pony
Regarding checking the mouth, In Hand breed classes it should be a must to see if the pony is in fact correct in the mouth,
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Post by ednalad on May 10, 2007 17:42:17 GMT
i do not see any reason why a judge should touch an animal.... surely in most cases if there is any thing to see ..then it would be seen by a decent judge... Also if a judge was to touch an animal in the ring then ( and not all the entrants)...then this draws attention to the said animal by the people watching....and we all know how tongues can gossip.... i would certainly not like a judge to touch my ponies if they were not going to touch all the others in the same class........
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Post by ednalad on May 10, 2007 17:44:10 GMT
Also if judges were to put there hand in a mouth...surely they should be washed thoroughly each time they do so............nice way of spreading germs eh???
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Post by Touchy on May 10, 2007 21:47:24 GMT
Also if judges were to put there hand in a mouth...surely they should be washed thoroughly each time they do so............nice way of spreading germs eh??? That is exactly one of the reasons why I asked the question in the first place. I have been in a class where a judge asked the entrants to open their ponys mouths for her, and for that I applaud her, far more sensible. However, last weekend at a show a native 'breed society' judge was looking in and opening all the mouths himself, he also touched the ponies all over, necks, legs feet, moved the tails. there wasn't a bit of the ponies he doesn't touch. Why he did this who knows! as he happily put ponies up with obvious conformation faults, I know it's easy to be a judge outside the ring and you don't see all that the judges do, but when you have seen some of the ponies year in year out and know them outside the ring then you do know of some with glaring faults. But that's neither here nor there, I had no respect for the judges opinion before I went to the show, I went purely to get some youngsters out for experience. My complaint is that the judge decided to 'touch' one of my ponies backs, not gently but very heavy handedly, so much so the pony sunk his back down and almost buckled to his knees. On closer inspection afterwards the pony has marks on his skin where the judges fingernails dug into him. This shouldn't be allowed to happen! I felt so incredibly guilty afterwards and cried when I realised just how brutal the judge had been, and what was his purpose, why did he even do it! I can't complain to the breed society, have done that before over something and didn't even get an acknowledgment, plus it's very much a case of judges judging each other week after week in this small area I am in so I would be unable to show my ponies again. If there aren't rules in place about judges touching ponies, I think there should be, so the heavy handed ones can keep their hands firmly in their pockets, and also not spread any viruses or diseases. I thought judges were asked not to touch ponies anymore after the foot and mouth outbreak, but I am probably wrong I have a memory like a sieve!
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Post by blind on May 11, 2007 1:01:25 GMT
as a multi panel judge......... if you cant see it with your eye you dont feel for it in any class
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Post by Touchy on May 11, 2007 2:41:49 GMT
I've also witnessed a few years ago a judge walking up the back of a line up of a class of lead rein ponies and slapping every pony on the bottom, I was worried about this as thought my pony would kick her into the grandstand, but fortunately all was OK and we won the class A few years ago in a ridden class I had a pony in, the judge didn't strip the ponies but walked down the line and had a good look at them all and also picked up a front foot up of each pony with their riders onbard at the time. All the riders were kids so so didn't say anything to him. Madness!
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Post by blackie on May 11, 2007 6:42:36 GMT
There are so many products on the market designed for humans that the showing fraternity use, it is essential not to just believe one's eyes!
And that is not to mention the many dyes that are being used these days to cover up you know what!
Perhaps if judges are not expected to touch your pony, we can forget bringing the ponies all together and have a video competition instead eh?
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Post by well on May 11, 2007 8:00:01 GMT
I know some judges that like to run hands down the legs just to see whether any black makeup rubs off.
Also with the bigger tailed breeds, to get a view of the hind legs the judge has to move the tail aside
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Post by Cherrytop & Spicery Stud on May 11, 2007 8:03:46 GMT
It all comes down to a judge should ask if it is OK to touch! You have a right to say NO!
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Post by Cherrytop & Spicery Stud on May 11, 2007 8:13:44 GMT
No society lists this as a rule. However if you don't like a rider in a Hack/RH/Hunter etc class you can ask to be excused
If a judge touches a pony before yours that has gunk in it nose (yes we have all see the ponies sadly at shows) and then wants to touch yours that you are going to let them. Sorry I would rater leave. (re my right to say no)
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Buddy
Junior Member
Posts: 82
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Post by Buddy on May 11, 2007 9:46:40 GMT
Personally I would prefer judges not to touch my ponies for health and safety reasons. Moving the bushy tail of a hairy is fine but as for the rest no touching.
If competitors stand their horses up properly for the judge, they should be able to see everything that is necessary.
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Post by ednalad on May 11, 2007 16:55:30 GMT
Hear hear Maryh..i quite agree!!
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Post by Local Judge on May 12, 2007 18:03:46 GMT
As a local judge i dont like to touch any ponies particularly around the face and noce/mouth areas I think if you are knowlegable you can see things like splits etc and shouldnt have to feel for them and if you cant see them then shouldnt feel for them. My only exception to the rule is a best turnout class, i like to if its ok with the handler maybe run fingers through a tail ( make or break time) and touch the neck to see if they are clean or just oiled up. And to check for excessive whiteneing Other time is in a veteran class where in doubt of ages ( drastic difference i mean between a 15 y o and a 25 y o) and i would ask the handler to show me rather than touch. A local show to us recently has had reports of a judge touching all legs of all ponies... all i can say is on your own head be it, the risk of transmitting disease increases and the risk of being kicked increases so i would say on their own daft heads if they have to do it, personally think it looks unprofessional and even though i only judge locally i try to act in a professional manner, a freind recently that i know of was stuck for a tow to a show i happened to be judging at, we had a land rover etc but as i explained it would look terribly unprofessional for a judge or a judges partner to tow someone who i was to subsequently judge to a show, she did get a lift else where and easily won her class, hands down as did a perfect round. Its hard judging locally as you get lots of people you know, BUT if those people truly know me what they will see is that they get no favours and are judged purley on their own merits and way of going, which i truley belive is the way it should be
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Post by pjwy on May 13, 2007 9:29:06 GMT
Fully agree with 'Local Judge' above!
Are'nt we in danger of over analysing in the show ring?
Obviously,it's for the good of the breeds that judges are exacting in their assessments but for heaven's sake,the best judges will always be able to make a pretty fair assessment of an animal without touching it or looking in mouths etc?
My argument is that even if a judge handles the animals all over looking for faults,it does'nt neccessarily mean that he or she will come up with the right decision when the ponies are lined up!
The really good judge will hardly ever be far off getting it right with their eyes alone and in most cases,their mental line up when the ponies are entering the ring wont be far out either!
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mel
Newbie
Posts: 2
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Post by mel on May 13, 2007 13:04:50 GMT
At Newark show yesterday the In Hand M&M judge couldn't decide which of 2 stallion's to choose for 1st place & had them both standing out together & gave them both a thorough look. Both ponies had very full forelocks, manes & particularly full hairy tails . She lifted both the tails up & to the side of both stallions & then made her decision. Both stallions were fortunately very calm & well behaved but I have seen plenty that aren't!! One of them was mine & I don't mind judges touching our pony but surely judges should be more wary of lifting ponies tails etc. as there could be some ponies that would give "both barrells"!!
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