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Post by Judge3 on May 13, 2007 21:11:27 GMT
I am so fed up with judges pulling line ups in "come as you are"!!
To me it makes a total mockery of a go round or first trot up in LR classes. What is the point if you dont get placed initially? I had the misfortune of being judged by Mrs Bown at Leicester County last weekend, who replaced Mr Bright in the LR and FR M & M classes. As I was already there, I thought I might as well go in, but wished I hadn't!!
How many times does the pony that "comes in as you are" in first place stays first? More often than not and it did at Leicester. I am very sorry if you own the winning pony, but it was a very ordinary section A, in its winter coat, badly produced and not a worthy winner at all. I am not normally a bad loser, but just can't see the point in judging if you are not going to pull in an initial line-up. Why do judges do it I wonder - I am a judge myself and will never insult exhibitors who come under me by ignoring their initial efforts. More often than not, I can pick my winning pony as it walks in the ring, and think that it is so important to compare ponies going together rather than individually - might as well be a dressage competition with a bit of conformation thrown in! My pony was placed at Leicester, but I will never go under Mrs Bown again - cannot imagine what her ideal of a M & M LR can possibly be!
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Post by johnwayne on May 13, 2007 21:29:15 GMT
'Come in as you are' is at best a cop out, and at worst a display of ignorance. Even if a judge is struggling, there should be a clear first and a clear last at this stage. It may be all change later on, but no harm in that. Going to bed now, very tired, and work tomorrow. Night-night! ;D
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Post by Guestless on May 13, 2007 21:47:40 GMT
I don't think it's a cop out as long as you are a good judge - it keeps a sense of mystery about the placings and I kind of like it! I think the judge has to have an idea of what he/she liked in the go round though so they need to have a decent memory.
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Post by OK on May 13, 2007 22:05:45 GMT
nothing wrong with this, maybe the top 3 or 4 aren't outstanding and it potentially is a fairer way of keeping things open. However you do need to be aware of the potential fight for first but it gives the one at the end of the line up a chance to shine and be remembered if everyone is on a bad day!
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Post by guest always on May 14, 2007 6:12:22 GMT
I think that sometimes it leaves it all to play for. Each competitor then puts their all into their show rather than the ones pulled in higher being more cautious.
Obviously yes the judge needs to have a good memory of the initial go round.
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Post by 50 50 on May 14, 2007 6:18:52 GMT
I would rather that Ms Bryer said come in as you are instead of placing ten, telling the rest to "Come in as you are" and then pulling a "Come in as you are" up to win!!! "come in as you are" is good because everyone puts their all in i agree and it's less dissapointing than standing top and dropping down!!
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Post by inanyorder on May 14, 2007 6:58:14 GMT
As a judge i like to pull the class in to line in any order. as 1. There is no jostling of ponies trying to get closer and closer to the judge vying to get into the "best spot to be seen" 2. It leaves the result open right to the end, with everyone trying their best to give a good show 3. I usually have an idea of my winner and placings after the go round BUT it does leave room for manouvre if there are ponies that do very nice shows and on closer inspection have better/ worse conformation than i initially thought from a distance These are just a few quick thoughts on this, just an initial reaction, i'm sure someone will come up with plenty of reasons not to pull in any order!
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Post by Enthusiast on May 14, 2007 7:56:26 GMT
Come as you are is very useful at local level when you have four ponies with very nice ears & end up having to judge the ridden M&M as the best show class
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How do they remember
Guest
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Post by How do they remember on May 14, 2007 9:14:13 GMT
I think for all to come and line up is fine as long as marks are given. How does a judge remember how they all went when there is 20 + in the class!!!
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Post by dl on May 14, 2007 10:31:53 GMT
i think to be lined up any order is good it gives everyone a chance instead of marks going from top minusing a couple each time also it would be good foe the conf judge not to be allowed to stand with the ridden judge and not to see who comes in to groom. we had an experience of this a couple of weeks ago where the conf judge clearly was looking for who was stood with which pony and clearly heard the marks being reflected in this manner
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Post by YesandNo on May 14, 2007 10:44:16 GMT
I don't mind either way except when it is a class with 2 judges, then I think they shouldn't pull in order. In a HOYS qualifier last year the ride judge pulled the top 6 only in order, when the final results were announced the top 6 ponies stayed the same in all but one class where one pony had moved up into a low placing. When seeing the marks afterwards the ride and conformation judge had awarded descending marks from 1st to last place ensuring the placings stayed exactly how the ride judge had done her initial pull in. If they had been pulled in any order to start with the conformation judge would have had no idea what the ride judge was thinking and the conformation judging might have been a bit fairer.
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Post by CHAPS classes on May 14, 2007 10:47:48 GMT
In CHAPS HOYS classes this year the new rule is that there is no pull.
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judge
Junior Member
Posts: 154
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Post by judge on May 14, 2007 10:51:45 GMT
I am afraid some of these nps breed judges are not as good as they should be, more interested in minor infringement of rules.
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Post by No Pull on May 14, 2007 10:58:50 GMT
I must admitt, when it comes to a HOYS qualifier I am a huge fan of a no pull, 'come in any order'.
Simply because there is a marks system with 2 judges, and secondaly because with 20 or 30 odd ponies going round I do not think every pony is assessed fairly in order to get a pull.
I think the horses just need to do a go round on one rein, come in in any order and then let the marks determine the final line up.
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Post by my way on May 14, 2007 11:23:05 GMT
We were judged by a judge and pulled in any order, after each one did their show the judge either left it where it was or was moved up to where she thought they should be. After the conformation they were sent out for the final walk round and the places were then determined.
I thought that was an excellent way of doing things.
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Post by not logged in on May 14, 2007 12:25:32 GMT
I watched a class yesterday where the judge took her time and pulled in order. With the exception of one pony, all of the top 4 ponies went beautifully. Appeared to strip well (of course I could not see a close up of legs etc)...however they were all dropped to 6th or lower. This was despite others not catching the judges eye or going well on the "go round", and some not performing nearly so well as some in the first few.
The winner had threatened to kick anything that came near it in the go round. Why bother pulling in order if you are going to choose so very differently?
...and another thing, some of these ponies looked really miserable - particulary in the in hand trot up. Does it not count for anything when an animal looks as if it is actually enjoying itself?
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Post by flashthecash on May 14, 2007 14:18:55 GMT
In CHAPS HOYS classes this year the new rule is that there is no pull. Well done CHAPS for making a stand.. I'm a fan of "come as you are" As said before you all have to give 101% in you individual show. You just never know
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Post by pol on May 14, 2007 14:26:34 GMT
I actually prefer the 'any order' initial line up.
I was once pulled in first initially in a very prestigous championship final. In the final placings I was dropped to second. I know its not all about winning but I was so crushed knowing that I came so close to winning it but didnt. I was really trying hard to smile and not cry as the judge handed me my second place rosette. I know that makes me sound like a really bad bad looser but I'm not, honestly! Its just that I have never won a prestigeous class before and to have won it would have meant so much to me!
If the initial placings were random, I'd have been none the wiser!
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Post by armada on May 14, 2007 19:03:22 GMT
i judge unaffiliated, and sometimes its easier on the competitors to do that, often I do have my top four or six in mind and barring any disasters, I ask the steward to call them forward after their individual in place order. With the little ones, it stops some of them getting upset too early on, its terrible when they find themselves down the line initially and emotion gets the better of them before they've even done their show. You get enough tears at the rossette giving without encouraging it earlier. I stewarded a HOYS M&M lead rein last years and the judges called any order, there were about 23 in the class, after the individual points were added up , the top marked ponies were called forward. They were of the same opinion as me, dont rock the boat until you have to. I watched a class when my mother was judging last week, any order was the call, and they were then pulled forward for presentation. The person who was 3rd almost snatched the rossette off my mum then when she turned her back pulled a face at her. if they'd been pulled in potential position order, would she have pulled her socks up and done a decent show (doubtful, she was hopeless) or been even more rude as she knew she was outclassed?( probably as from her reaction to Madam judge, it was mums fault, not her own).
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Post by johnwayne on May 14, 2007 19:59:16 GMT
OK, I'm well outnumbered, but still not a fan! I think, as well, that there is a distinct psychological disavantage if your place in 'come as you are' is at the tail end of the class.
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Post by non competitor on May 15, 2007 9:48:04 GMT
If it's a very small class I often call them in as they are - then if they move up or down they don't know - I usually have an order in my mind
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Post by Judge3 on May 15, 2007 20:25:25 GMT
Interesting comments!! Nobody has however really mentioned that when the judge asks the ponies to come in as you are, inevitably, the pony who comes in first does well, if not wins - watch the seasoned riders who try to get in at the top of the line up! Also, ponies that have misbehaved on the go round, especially in a large class, are often forgiven if they then do a good show. Surely, ponies should be judged on how they perform and behave together as well as individually - what is the point of a go round otherwise? The BSPS rule for judges is that once the ponies have started trotting, no pony may enter the ring - for the very same reason i.e. competitors were entering rings once the other ponies had gone round together, because their pony wouldn't behave on the go round. Also, ponies pulled in lower down the line-up then have a chance to improve their placing by doing a better show than the ones placed above them - they have a yard-stick to go on. I was once pulled about 33 in a huge Olympia qualifier, did a very good show (not bragging!) and came up to 3rd - a good judge should always reward a good show and admit to missing a pony on the go round.
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