pimms
Full Member
Posts: 295
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Post by pimms on May 14, 2007 19:09:43 GMT
is anyone else sick to death of seeing the traditionals being judged with the plaiteds ! why do the do this and then to go to seperate them at ri !
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Post by colour on May 14, 2007 19:47:42 GMT
I completely agree!!!
trads usually always go different to plaited horses, also coloured classes are big enough when seperated let alone all togeather!!
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Post by me too on May 15, 2007 7:37:59 GMT
Me too drives me insane it is an unlevel playing field and many people feel the same lets hope enough people join in on this thread and the powers that be do something about it some shows seperate them but some do not and the classes are always full if a show does not have the time to run 4 or 6 classes then lt it run the 2 it can but 2 of either plaiteds or hairies and let another show have the other 2 classes so that everyone has the same amount of qualifiers but not in a mixed class
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Post by Rockstar NLI on May 15, 2007 8:50:25 GMT
I do agree to a certain extent - for example the coloured classes at Windsor were HUGE. But you have to look at it from a judging point of view. Some shows dont have the time / space to run 4 classes so have to go for 2. If you put the traditionals in one and the plaited in another, how would you judge it as the larges are ridden and the ponies do shows. I'm sure some people would think the ponies have the advantage in not being ridde and some would think the horses have an advantage in being ridden!!
The only fair way to split it is into horses and ponies so that the judge rides ALL the horses in one class and sees shows from ALL of the ponies in the other.
I actually think that they make it too easy to qualify for the RIHS for the coloureds by allowing 2 from each class to qualify. They should limit it to one as for all of the other classes and encourage a higher standard. Fair enough in the 'early' years they had to encourage numbers forward but now they need to work on the quality not the quantity.
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Post by Guestless on May 15, 2007 9:05:23 GMT
I guess part of the problem is because there isn't a breed standard as such for different types of coloureds. Maybe if judges were using a standard for each type, then the plaiteds wouldn't always beat the trads.
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Post by Trad owner on May 15, 2007 9:13:08 GMT
Ive never had a problem against plaited ponies with my trad - in coloured classes or other classes with solid coloured ponies in it!!
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Post by heights on May 15, 2007 9:14:32 GMT
Also wat makes me think is in the HOYS Q why can Plaited ponies go up to somthing like 15 and the Trads go up to 14.2
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woof
Full Member
Posts: 358
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Post by woof on May 15, 2007 9:21:03 GMT
I agree with Trad owner I don't think the trads have any problem competing against the plaiteds, we have a plaited pony and always in our classes the trad seems to get it. I also disagree with quality with 2 tickets up for grabs, we did BSPA last week, mixed class up to 143cm, 7 in it all fab quality. The problem we have is a tiny 10yr old on small pony competing against mixed heights, breeds etc usually always ridden by adults, it is definately not a level playing field in the coloureds, but for us when we do well it makes it all the sweeter!!
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Post by Jo Jenkins on May 15, 2007 9:26:21 GMT
BSPA have various illustrated booklets which are available on line that do set out standerds for all the various types and they send all these out to the various judges. In mixed type classes it always difficult whether coloured or mm. I takes a very good shetland for example to knock the bigger ones of their perches. With coloured ones conformation is still v v important and a lot of the trads do have those 'shire-y' hocks that would walk down a furrow well! They cant help it the feather etc etc has to come from somewhere! IMO also the standard of the schooling of a trad has to be very very high, again just to compensate for their physical makeup. And whilst on my soapbox(!) I know the trads have to be free movers but when they are ridden as though in a trotting race they lose their rhythm and attractiveness. Long live all the coloured horses and ponies and good luck to everyone.
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Post by lils on May 15, 2007 10:47:20 GMT
Also wat makes me think is in the HOYS Q why can Plaited ponies go up to somthing like 15 and the Trads go up to 14.2 i guess that because of the Plaited Class Caters for Hunter Ponies which the upper height limit in open classes is 15hh, therefore a good coloured should be able to compete in open solid classes, so the cut off point is at 15hh. The traditional/Cob/Native class at 14.2hh as then you would be an open cob at 14.3hh
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pimms
Full Member
Posts: 295
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Post by pimms on May 15, 2007 13:08:01 GMT
another point to make is the marking system. im sick of judges not taking marks down for bspa. bsps have got it to a tee. With the coloured classes they dont mark anything down so you cant see why a judge liked or disliked your horse / pony. this is where the producers get away with it and the same faces qualify. Certain top riders riding average ponies but qualifying them straight of it **** its taken me a good few shows to qualify. im not moaning just saying things that need tidying up to make the shows fair.
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Post by pho3nix on May 15, 2007 13:47:27 GMT
I guess part of the problem is because there isn't a breed standard as such for different types of coloureds. Maybe if judges were using a standard for each type, then the plaiteds wouldn't always beat the trads. i know what your saying but i dont think plaiteds always beat the trads. its the usual story of what the judge likes best tho really isn't it? there are enough about these days to do different classes for each one, its getting to the same stage with M&Ms, especially with the popularity of Connies going through the roof!
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Post by Guestless on May 15, 2007 13:51:45 GMT
i know what your saying but i dont think plaiteds always beat the trads. its the usual story of what the judge likes best tho really isn't it? Very true - it was only meant as a thought. I've got a trad coloured but she's only 3 so hasn't done much in the ring so far.
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Post by pho3nix on May 15, 2007 13:53:23 GMT
cool! i hope u do well :-) love trads, mind u, i'm rubbish coz i love most breads haha
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Post by fiona on May 15, 2007 17:26:17 GMT
Boy am I glad I dont compete my coloured!!
Good luck with yr shows tho pimms
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woof
Full Member
Posts: 358
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Post by woof on May 15, 2007 20:21:43 GMT
I have to agree with you though Pimms, No Marks, what is that all about. The first time we did an RIHS qualifier with our coloured I went and asked for my marks and they looked at me like I was an alien, I was shocked I just assumed that they would do marks as all the other societies I'm in do.
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Post by Holley fred on May 31, 2007 21:20:09 GMT
HI, i completely agree, we went to a county show in the week and they had mixed natives wiv non-natives and i think it is ridiculous i dont even think that hoggeds should be allowed in a native class, because they are not native. Also a definition of a native is like an m&m, they are to be shown in natural state, and how can a hogged be shown in a natural state when there mane has been clipped and there legs too!!! when i enter into a native class with my native when there are hoggeds in the ring there is a 99.9% chance that the judge will chose the hogged over the native, because it always happens. It isn't fair that all these natives are entered in a class because (the majority of the time) they are moved down by a hogged.
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rtk
Junior Member
Posts: 107
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Post by rtk on Jun 1, 2007 3:22:06 GMT
Before you enter another county show it might be worth looking at the definitions.
The classes are usually split into plaited or native/traditional/cob. I'll admit I'm not keen on mixing plaited with non plaiteds but I suppose its on numbers of entries they expect. For the RIHS qualifiers it would be fairer if they had to choose one plaited and one non plaited to qualify, especially as they are split at the actual show.
In the native/traditional/cob classes it usually depends what the judge likes. Some like to see what they are judging without all the hair, some like the natives (I suspect because some of them move better) but a lot like a good hairy traddy.
Its swings and roundabouts, try entering a few more shows and you will see traddies with shocking confirmation and action winning simply because they have lots of lovely hair. With a hogged cob you cant hide anything.
Why do you think coloured people are so keen on finding out who the judge is before they enter.
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Post by fmm on Jun 1, 2007 9:15:30 GMT
If a hairy has a splint, or other leg lump/bump, it is a lot easier to disguise than it is on a cob which has been hogged to within an inch of its life!
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Post by Rockstar NLI again on Jun 1, 2007 10:48:15 GMT
This might be controversial!!!!
How does everyone feel about not being pulled in for the HOYS qualifiers this year? I'm not sure - it was a mad scramble at the end of the go round at B&W to get in near the 'top' of the line. Plus on the go round, the judges hardly seemed to watch any of the class go round and in actual fact I guess now they dont need to!! It has become and exercise for showing your horse the ring before the judge gets on!
Also at B&W the conformation judge stripped the horses after each one had been ridden. Did this mean she could watch them being ridden and then give ones she liked a good mark and ones she didnt like a worse mark if she though they went badly / well? For example, my horse gave the judge a really good ride, then got a VERY low conformation mark (he has been supreme in hand at BSPA, had the joint highest conf mark at HOYS over the 4 classes in 2005 and was 2nd there in 2006 - nowt wrong with his conformation!!) I wonder....................... Would MUCH prefer it if they stripped half of the class whilst the others were ridden and then swapped - would give a much fairer view I think.
I'm sure I will get accused of sour grapes but I honestly just want peoples opinions on the new system. There is always another day / show for us (hopefully!).
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Post by fmm on Jun 1, 2007 11:58:31 GMT
I definitely think that they should be pulled in in some sort of order. Even if it is only to put the naughty ones at the end of the line. What on earth is the point of the go round otherwise?
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Post by Rules on Jun 1, 2007 12:37:25 GMT
Read your CHAPS rule book! The conformation judge has to strip from the top of the line after the horses have been ridden. They cannot start half way down.
Sorry, meant to quote but hit the modify button instead. Your post has been returned to normal
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coloured enthusiast
Guest
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Post by coloured enthusiast on Jun 1, 2007 13:04:02 GMT
Well i think its a good idea about not judging the conf till they have been ridden. i think the idea was it was suppossed to stop the conf judges giving higher marks to the ones at the top of the line as they know the ride judge likes those ones? so everyone is on a even keel! But then again if there is 30 odd horses in the class on the go round and some wrong leg it or are naughty then i suppose the judge could forget which one's which didn't behave /or make mistakes by the time they come out to do their show good points and bad points in the new rules i think. It could be be better if the judge took notes of the numbers of the ones who didn't behave on the go round and then peanalised them when they gave their ride mark maybe?
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Post by Rockstar on Jun 1, 2007 13:20:50 GMT
Read your CHAPS rule book! The conformation judge has to strip from the top of the line after the horses have been ridden. They cannot start half way down. This is what I meant to type before I modified your post, sorry!!!! I did not know that, I overheard the judge saying to the steward (after he asked if she would like to strip the second half of the class) that she wanted to strip that way so I thought it was a preference thing. I agree about being on more of an even keel by not pulling them in in any order, but like has been said, ones that were naughty could go well for the judge and strip well and then get placed. Tough one.
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