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Post by Fair Marking on May 29, 2007 17:13:54 GMT
i think that the 50/50 marking system for MnMs is a very bad idea. A pony can go unbelieveable bad yet still do well because of the conformation mark. At the BSPS winter champs i came 3rd in a class and i had 4 more marks than the one that won as it was naughty. Is it only me who thinks this or does anyone else???
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Post by princess on May 29, 2007 17:48:55 GMT
I actually believe that the conformation mark is very important, if we are not careful we will lose type in our native breeds which is something we need to preserve.
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Post by conformation on May 29, 2007 18:00:03 GMT
i think conformation is extremely important! i no sometimes a pony goes bad and still gets up the line but its up to the ride judge to lower its marks! the conformation is at least equally if not more important otherwise their would be many ponies winning that do not represent their breed! i think the 50/50 system is the only way a class can be judged! the breed and conformation is without a doubt important would you rather have a pony with terrible conformation and does not look likes its breed type at the top of the line just because it gives a good performance? i wouldn't!
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Post by YYY on May 29, 2007 19:48:25 GMT
so if the conformation is that important why is the ride mark chosen when there are marks that are the same. I know that the conformation is important its just not fair if a pony/horse goes crap and then does really well just because it has good conformation. Conformation mark should involve true to type as something like 10 marks then the rest in the other 30. I just think that it is very unfair that the ponies that go really well but dont get as high a conf mark dont do well.
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Post by pho3nix on May 29, 2007 21:24:05 GMT
i think that the 50/50 marking system for MnMs is a very bad idea. A pony can go unbelieveable bad yet still do well because of the conformation mark. At the BSPS winter champs i came 3rd in a class and i had 4 more marks than the one that won as it was naughty. Is it only me who thinks this or does anyone else??? personally, i think that any horse that is naughty then shouldn't be placed any higher then other horses that are well behaved, regardless of confirmation. If it goes badly or bucks, wrong foots it or something less serious then again it should be automatically be pplaced lower then a horse that goes well, foot perfect etc. Whats the point in having a perfect confirmation horse but has the manners of the devil? again though its down to judge opinion, but i know what i would do in that position.
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Post by hellogoodbye on May 29, 2007 21:28:53 GMT
Well I can see both sides as it is SHOWING not dressage we are participating in, but it is VERY annoying when one wrong legs/bucks/naps but still gets pulled up by conf mark. However we got to remember we are showing and conformation plays a very important part in it!! However judges could use the ride marks more freely and if one naps or bucks take off a fair few marks. Depends what the judge feels is naughty or a mistake though like a wrong leg.
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Post by i agree on May 30, 2007 8:27:01 GMT
i think that the 50/50 marking system for MnMs is a very bad idea. A pony can go unbelieveable bad yet still do well because of the conformation mark. At the BSPS winter champs i came 3rd in a class and i had 4 more marks than the one that won as it was naughty. Is it only me who thinks this or does anyone else??? personally, i think that any horse that is naughty then shouldn't be placed any higher then other horses that are well behaved, regardless of confirmation. If it goes badly or bucks, wrong foots it or something less serious then again it should be automatically be pplaced lower then a horse that goes well, foot perfect etc. Whats the point in having a perfect confirmation horse but has the manners of the devil? again though its down to judge opinion, but i know what i would do in that position. HERE HERE
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Post by clobo12notsignedin on May 30, 2007 8:47:12 GMT
Have to agree i think this just comes down to judges use their marking system better. If something went very bad i wld make sure it had a low ride mark so it cldnt possibly still win even if it had the best conformation. Then people can also see clearly by the marks why stuff went down etc
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dizzy
Full Member
Posts: 417
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Post by dizzy on May 30, 2007 8:50:59 GMT
IMO mistakes in the ride should have set marks deducted ie wrong leg -10 buck or bronc -15 it certainly would make the system fairer. In WHP you know what marks your likely to lose from youre knock down or refusal for me it should be the same in showing. All too often you see a winning pony make some of these errors and still have a ride mark in the high 40s regardless of the conformation. Would be interrested to hear others views on the subject.
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Post by Show Ponies on May 30, 2007 8:59:13 GMT
[glow=red,2,300]I always think that most of the time the show pony classes seem to be better results at the end of the class. I dont know weather this is just me or there are others with the same opinion. i generally think that the 60 - 40 marking system would work much better to ensure the results are fair due to the way of going. Even the pony with the best conformation in the world should not be placed in a big class if alot of the others went very well. I'm sure we have all done well when we have wrong legged it etc but even so i still disagree.!!.[/glow]
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Post by no need on May 30, 2007 9:12:57 GMT
If judges used their marks properly any system would work 50/50 or 60/40 it is bad judging that does not work. Last year at a SP qualifier a pony spooked badly then missed canter on 1 rein completley and still won HOW because it got 15 marks more for conformation than anything else in the class. I spoke to a very knowledgable judge about this and his answer is mark the show very low if the ponies make big mistakes so that even the top conformation mark would not be enough so why does no one do that mark under 25 for bad shows what is the ponit of having 50 or 60 marks if everything is marked within a range of 15 which is what most judges do knocking off a couple of points is not enough serious mistakes ie bucking napping, wrong legs, spooking badly, and head throwiing all these problems need serious penalties if it is a HOYS or RIHS Qualifier
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judge
Junior Member
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Post by judge on May 30, 2007 19:14:06 GMT
i agree as the conformation judges judge the conformation and does not know what the pony has done in its show its up to the ride judge to make sure a pony has a low mark if it has not gone well!
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jdd
Junior Member
Posts: 77
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Post by jdd on May 31, 2007 14:17:24 GMT
But again the ride judge does not know the conformation judges marks and 15 marks as stated in no needs post is a lot to loose in your show for going badly. I think that maybe having a score system for points deducted when the horse misbehaves like stops and knock downs in WHP classes might be the way forward.
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Post by geegee69 on Jun 2, 2007 19:33:02 GMT
What I find is very strange regarding confirmation is when you look at the Olympia final confirmation marks. Most of these ponies should have top confirmation, as they have gone Champion at a qualifying round beating all breeds that have entered. However, the marks for confirmation can vary from 49 to 20 at the final. How can a pony that has qualified have such a low mark. I would expect the marks to range from 49 to 35!!!
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I want to be a judge
Guest
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Post by I want to be a judge on Jun 2, 2007 19:42:24 GMT
Geegee - surely with any marks its all relative to what other ponies are in the class? Just because a pony has qualified doesnt mean it is going to get 50 marks for conformation at the final. The ponies are compared to what else has qualified and its judges preference at the end of the day. Also, different judges have different preferences - for example a pony may qualify that is near enough perfect - except for say its small boxy feet, which the qualifying judge excused because the pony was near perfect in every other way. at the final, the judges one pet hate may be bad feet, hence a low conformation mark.
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judge
Junior Member
Posts: 154
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Post by judge on Jun 2, 2007 19:45:01 GMT
Unfortunately some of the ponies that get through to Olympia/HOYS should not, with Olympia the winner of the breed qualifier is often not the best representative.
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Post by i agree on Jun 2, 2007 20:56:58 GMT
i agree with judge you don't always get the best of breeds at Olympia sometimes they are just the best that are there not the best in the country!
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Post by ednalad on Jun 2, 2007 21:50:31 GMT
regarding conformation marks, different judges will and do use their marks with a varying range... ie one judge may mark highly on a regular basis and another may prefer to use their marks on a lower level.......either way the pony with the best conformation "should" always get the higher mark at the end of that specific class...whether the judge on the day gives higher or lower use of their marks....
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Imo:P
Junior Member
Gigman All That Jazz
Posts: 130
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Post by Imo:P on Jun 3, 2007 9:15:24 GMT
I just think that in the overall results of a class if a pony was naughty (buck, wrong leg etc) no matter how good its conformation it should be put down at least a place to where the judge would of placed it otherwise. I wrong legged it twice in my show once and there was only ten in it but all the others went really well and i deserved to be last but i still won. I was so ashamed because i would be really cross if i was everyone else. But i went to see my marks and my conformation had pulled it right up. im still ashamed now.
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Post by Guestless on Jun 4, 2007 9:49:31 GMT
I think we can get too hung up on wrong legs. Yes they should be penalised, but why is it more criticised than a pony that goes round the ring on the wrong bend? Both are wrong IMO but those with wrong legs seem to be vilified and those on the wrong bend ignored.
If a rider clearly corrects a wrong leg quickly and effectively, then I don't think it should be penalised as much as a pony that does the whole class on the wrong bend.
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Post by fmm on Jun 4, 2007 10:07:36 GMT
Mainly because the numpties can almost always (but not every time) recognise a wrong leg, but are less able to recognise a wrong bend ...
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