HOYS - HACK JUDGING DECISION

[suey]

WELL THANK GOODNESS SOMEONE HAS PRINTED SOME FACTS ABOUT MANNERS - OR THE LACK OF MANNERS - THIS WEEKS HORSE AND HOUNDS HAS AN ARTICLE ABOUT THE WINNER OF LARGE HACKS POOR PERFORMANCE YET AGAIN, AFTER APPARENTLY DISPLAYING POOR MANNERS AT RIHS RECENTLY. I THINK THE OWNERS NOW HAVE PULLED THE HACK OUT OF SHOWING IN THIS CLASS AGAIN - BUT WILL HE LOOSE HIS 1ST PLACING IN THE RECORD BOOKS. SEVERAL MONTHS AGO I POSTED AN INCIDENT WHERE DURING THE INHAND HACK CLASS AT M.COUNTY SHOW A HORSE KICKED OUT JUST MISSING THE JUDGE WITHOUT PLACING BEING EFFECTED. IN CERTAIN CLASSES MANNERS ARE ESSENTIAL AND CLASSES WHICH ARE IN THE SPOTLIGHT LIKE HOYS SHOULD LEAD THE WAY SO ALL JUDGES LOWER DOWN THE SCALE SHOULD FOLLOW

[dusteragain]

Well I disagree totally. It is a hack class, not a Police Horse class. There is too much clapping and whooping nonsense going on. These are sensitive, beautiful, highly bred creatures, not riding school plodders. The atmosphere is requiring too much calmers and ear-stuffing, working into the ground. I am pleased that the horse hung on to its award as it was the only true hack in the whole show, produced and ridden in the style of a true hack and that is why it won. We need to watch and learn from John Keen - that is how a hack should go. I have a beautiful horse myself who is terrified of the evening performances so I have some work to do on him over the Winter, including having to plug his ears, I admit. Hwever, these horses ARE horses, after all. I think the spectators are the ones who need to be controlled!

[suey]

Not knowing the horse in question or going to HOYS, I made three points for discussion and did not mention type or riding ability. was the RIHS indoor?, which was the other show this same horse had problems at, as I know the M.County was out door in a class of 8, which was the 3rd incident I mentioned. I usually only go to local shows where manners are probably more important due to perhaps less experienced handlers/ridders. So I do not change what is only my opinion, however, I do agree bright lights and noise are a come occurance which all show ponies/horse have to cope with, even the competitors in the same hack class previously discussed

[dusteragain]

the horse apparently was unsettled at the BSHA Championships. I did not see it there but I did watch the whole of the hack classes. It is vwery hard to penalise one horse and not some of the others, as many of them leap around when the clapping etc starts. Where exactly does one draw the line? Having to leave the line-up and go to the front on your own is always a little daunting - to collect the award. Perhaps, this should be revised? Perhaps also the horse has not been given as many calmers as the rest of them!!!! LOL

[ellieraga]

Didnt see class so unable to comment on that but as original poster stated horse has now been withdrawn from these classes, therefore i thinks this suggests there have been problems

[cheekychops]

Manners should be balanced with an understanding that well bred horses are not stuffed toys! Personally I don't mind a little "horsey" behaviour and do tend to be a little forgiving if its a beautiful animal.

[mikesloft1]

Take your point dusteragain but not sure I agree with you. If a hack should have manners to burn then a little transgression in the electric atmosphere of HOYS can be forgiven. However, it was more than a little transgression as it basically wouldn't stand for the presentation in it's class even when there was no clapping when the crowd realised the extent of the horses unsettled behaviour. The crowd were well under control then thanks. I have a lot of respect for the rider in question who has done so much for the cause of amateurs in showing hacks. Personally I like to see a hack with flowing paces which the horse in question on this occasion despite all the stops being pulled out was actually a bit stuffy and in canter was almost standing still doing four four time. I also remember seeing Richard Ramsey on Valentino at HOYS lose his red rosette for being unsettled so where is the judging consistency? I have to say I understand why some people have been asking questions but ultimately it's all about the horses behaviour and nothing else.

[vikki]

I was at HOYS a few years ago when Robert Oliver took the 1st place away from one of the search for a star horses as it would not stand to be given its rosetes! I thought this was the correct decision, but i would be gutted if it had been me.

[peeps]

It was certainly not an isolated incident. The horse would also not stand in the line up whilst the shows were taking place so no clapping was happening then.
I have also witnessed the horse not standing at outdoor shows during the season and napping to the line up so I think all these incidents have left a bitter taste in many peoples mouths for this to happen and get away with it time and time again.

[kayjayem]

I saw that too Vikki, heartbreaking but in the long run fair for the other competitors. A class is not finished until rosettes are given and the class dismissed.

[bubblyxx]

I watched the class and the horse in question was not a little bit unsettled - it was quite naughty.
In fact, H&H goes so far as to say the horse was kicking out and only just missed the sponsor gamely trying to present the award.

As the Rule Book states - Hacks should have impeccable manners.
When the likes of Bridget Millington and Richard Ramsey lose their 1st place rosettes (in previous years) - and Alastair Hood left the arena as his horse was a little "bright", then it would have been the Right Thing To Do to move the 2nd placed horse up.

Maybe there is an option to put the horse down to 3rd - or even lower - but there is no way it should have been made champion.
It misbehaved in the Class, in the Championship and also in the Supreme - where quite rightly it retired.

As the rider is also a judge and on the panel, then in my opinion, he should have stepped aside.

If someone's horse does the same thing in the future, they could quite rightly turn round and say - well if so-and-so wasn't demoted, then why should I be.

I fear a precedent may be set for the future - unless judges are aligned and all abide by the rules of the society.

We will see next season what happens !

I also fear this type of discussion will go on as everyone has their own opinion.

My view is that the strict rules apply to hack classes - and should continue to do so - as they are the epitome of elegance and beauty - and should behave accordingly.

End of rant

[dusteragain]

Once upon a time, the hack classes used to start with about 20 in them and end up with about 3! They all used to retire. It is a pity if this horse is considered to be naughty. I just see a highly strung horse. For example, in the Supreme, it would have made more sense to line them up at the other end of the arena, without the hustle and bustle behind them. Yes, then perhaps if the horse had refused to stand, it should have retired immediately. Regarding the horse's way of going, the horse was collected and very slow, which is how a hack should go. Occasionally the rhythm was lost I agree, but nothing else went remotely like a hack. So I suppose that is why it kept its place. I have also been told that a hack should still go forward! Wish they'd make their minds up. Why would John Keen exercise so much pressure and influence over all these judges?? If someone knows, please PM me a let me into the secret!

[bubblyxx]

I have been told of one or two reasons why some judges may "appear" to "favour" Mr Keen - but as its chinese whispers and is only "gossip", then its not right to publish them - even though this IS Horse Gossip ;D

I too am aware that a Show Hack should canter at "walking" pace - but in the days when the Gents would "canter" alongside a Lady whilst chatting her up - it wasn't a show class !

Maybe interpretation is going to far in asking for the "slow canter" as it does tend to go 4 time. Even Grand Prix dressage horses in full collection would struggle to go that slowly - and maintain the 3-tim, rhythmic canter.

[workingcob]

I didn't watch the class, only the championship. The hack in question looked tense during the go round - to be honest, the poor animal just does not look like he enjoys showing very much. There was no whooping or cheering and, being a Thursday, it was relatively quiet in the main arena - but the horse simply didn't look happy, and rather tucked up too.

The tension translated to his outline mostly noticeably in trot for me - his paces looked choppy and for me that rather spoils the picture. I didn't actually think he was particularly badly behaved during the presentation, as it happens - there were others during the show who also struggled to stand still between the flowers in much the same way - but when compared to the other horses in the championship during the go round he did not look light and fluid in the way, for example, Royal Engagement did.

As for the supreme - again, the horse looked unhappy fairly quickly after coming into the ring. I very much doubt standing the line up at the collecting ring end would have made a significant difference. TBs are sensitive animals and "thinkers/worriers" and, purely in my opinion, this particular horse looks like he has decided showing isn't his cup of tea and starts fretting about that the moment he walks in. Sad, but not every horse wants to be a show horse, I guess, just like not every TB wants to be a racehorse

[titch]

Not bad for ahorse that does not like doing it to win Hoys!

[workingcob]

Suspect most horses couldn't give a fig about winning a rosette, getting to HOYS or going champion - that's for their human cargo to obsess about/enjoy!

[daisychain1]

Dusteragain asks 'where do you draw the line?'

I think it is understandable that some horses are upset by the atmostphere at HOYs and other indoor shows but there are also other horses who behave impeccably.

I also understand that it must be difficult for judges to take a championship away from a rider.

I do believe though, that the line should be drawn when a horse's behaviour becomes dangerous for it's rider, other competitors and the judges and stewards.

I think rearing, spinning, kicking and bolting should be penalised, especially at the very top of the sport.

I might forgive fidgeting, backing up and stepping sideways as long as the horse stood in reserve wasn't on equal marks.

[armada]

Oct 13, 2011 19:20:03 GMT dusteragain said:

Well I disagree totally. It is a hack class, not a Police Horse class. There is too much clapping and whooping nonsense going on. These are sensitive, beautiful, highly bred creatures, not riding school plodders. The atmosphere is requiring too much calmers and ear-stuffing, working into the ground. I am pleased that the horse hung on to its award as it was the only true hack in the whole show, produced and ridden in the style of a true hack and that is why it won. We need to watch and learn from John Keen - that is how a hack should go. I have a beautiful horse myself who is terrified of the evening performances so I have some work to do on him over the Winter, including having to plug his ears, I admit. Hwever, these horses ARE horses, after all. I think the spectators are the ones who need to be controlled!

No its not a police horse class, but going back to the origins of the hack, particularly the park hack, if the animal in question had to take his chances in Hyde park in the 18th/19th Century alongside the hawkers, carriages and various wags of the time, he would'nt last 20 seconds performing a hand canter alongside of his riders chosen beau's carriage, and therefore would be deemed not suitable for his job, I doubt for a second the atmosphere of HOYS outshines the atmosphere of a so called 'Genteel' era of society life in central London, no good talking the talk if you cant walk the walk so to speak.
I turned my head for less than a minute after the initial line up at Kent County, and the rider, ride judge and conf judge were bidding adieu. Outdoors, a nice calm day, a big ring, and no baying hordes.

modified for shocking spelling.

[bubblyxx]

Oct 13, 2011 19:20:03 GMT dusteragain said:

Well I disagree totally. It is a hack class, not a Police Horse class. There is too much clapping and whooping nonsense going on. ..... I think the spectators are the ones who need to be controlled!

My recollection is that there was a deathly silence when the horse was announced as the winner - no clapping or whooping nonsense at all

[cheekychops]

Armada - you "modified for shocking spelling" made me giggle!

[dusteragain]

well let's hope next year we have a beautifully mannered, superb looking hack, going well and deserving to win without question, in front of an equally well mannered audience.

[suey]

I STARTED THIS THREAD AND HAVE READ WITH INTEREST ALL YOUR COMMENTS, STATING SOMETHINGS I HAD'NT THOUGHT OFF. ESPECIALLY LONDON AND THE OLD WAY!! I HOPE JUDGES, OWNERS AND PRODUCERS TAKE NOTE AND START TO REGAIN SOME RESPECT FROM THE GRASS ROUTES BY SELF REGULATING ESPECIALLY AT THE TOP END OF THE SHOWING CIRCLE AND NOT JUST SET AN EXAMPLE BY PENALISING LOCAL SHOW ENTRANT TO "PRETEND" THEY ARE CORRECTING THIS SITUATION

[sc]

Suey, some how I don't think you have thought at all, because if you had you wouldn't be gossiping incorrect gossip.

[mcnaughty]

I have to admit to siding with the "manners please" chaps. IMO all riding horses should have manners and if this is something as simple as not fidgeting in the lineup - let alone lashing out at fellow competitors then YES! Thrown em all out!

Personally, I was VERY unimpressed this summer by the manners shown by in-hand animals - one particular young riding pony spent so long on it's hind legs its handler didn't even realise she had been called into the Championship spot! Another Welsh D stallion did not show one -yes one - full stride of trot and was placed! How on earth did that happen?

[handcanter]

I notice nobody has mentioned the manners of the Arabs at HOYS, bearing in mind those classes are judged as riding horse classes the lack of even the most basic manners in most entrants, with behaviour that was downright dangerous in a few, left any short term minor abberations of the winning hack, totally in the shade.
It seems this thread is more about having a go at Mr Keen again. I don't know much about it but I do see that he doesn't show an awful lot, but when he does he tends to win. As two entirely different judges put it champion at the BSHA show from those that put it up at HOYS it suggests that the horse is a jolly good one as it's pretty much unbeaten going on this years results. HOYS is really quite an occasion and anything that manages to hold it together the whole time is exceptional. There were plenty of other show animals doing a bit of a loop whilst being given rosettes or on laps of honour.
I suppose you can at least say that his horse definitely wasn't doped and jolly good luck to all who managed to win a rosette fair and square on skill and hard work.

[workingcob]

I'm sorry, but it is absolutely not about having a go at Mr Keen - it is a discussion of a result which caused some surprise.

Of course horses become unsettled at HOYS, but there are degrees of unsettledness, and at this level, where every hack forward might be expected to be of a very high quality, at some point some consideration (in the marks) must eventually be made to differentiate between a line up of lovely horses.

[fanfarefan]

i have not seen the horse in question and nor do i know it , but what i will say is that i have been showing for many years and it was and is my understanding that manners can win or loose a class for you ! be it at county level or a local show i think it is of the utmost importance, for the safety of all of those involved .i know that a big occasion can be daunting for some horses and they will mess about but that discriminates againts those who do behave and i think that the judges have a duty to pull up those that do stand still,present them selves correctly in their individual show ,in the line up and for recieving their rossette, and set a good example for our up and coming show riders

[chorro]

Hacks are supposed to have manners to burn, have only read H&H report.
Also H&H report said the Arabs were really naughty except the winner who behaved impeccably but Arabs aren't hacks and aren't required to have the same manners as hacks.
Hacks are meant to be the pinnacle of riding horse's.
But regardless well done to Mr Keen.

[dbud7]

I have not yet got round to reading my nag and dog this week but did watch the hack championship on thursday. When asked who i thought would take it my response was that i wouldn't have thought it would be who it was. The animal was not at all relaxed and appeared tucked up which in my opinion effected its performance and so appeared to be not as well mannered as the small hacks. Throughout the presentation the two small hacks stood completely still and in my opinion were the better hacks. As they left the arena the person i was with highlighted that maybe the hack in question gave a better ride for the judge earlier in the day at which point i said even if it did, this was a separate class and in my opinion did not deserve to take the championship.

[chorro]

dbub7 in the H&H report says the judge said the horse gave them the 'ride of their life'.