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Post by dbud7 on Oct 14, 2011 13:15:07 GMT
Thanks for letting me know - will be reading tonight with an arm full of chocolate and numerous cups of tea!!!
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Post by magpie on Oct 14, 2011 13:39:36 GMT
It is a very interesting read. RE: the arabs, I watched the stallion class because a friend was in it, he was only a baby but coped quite well with the noise and commotion. The won who was 2nd was a massive shock to me, in its go round it would not go forward and when the judge went to ride it, it went awful, wouldnt go forward, awful trans...maybe its confo bought it up. Im not into arabs at all, but the one that won the stallions moved like a dream and didnt flicker an ear on its lap of honour (think it went res as well). #
RE the hacks, i wasnt there, but just having a look through the pics it does seem tucked up and if you looked back through WC's commentary, she does say that the small hacks were the ones who looked as though they deserved the championship. Obviously the Keens name is synonymous with hacks & hack breeding and it seems a shame that they have tarnished this (not for the first time i recall.)
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Post by blovell on Oct 14, 2011 14:07:33 GMT
For one, the Keens have always been synonymous with hacks and they have had in the past some amazing horses, but I feel on this occasion that it may not of been worthy of the championship!
I have read this thread and the previous one about the BSHA champs and even though i was not at BSHA no one can question the fact that this horse was ill-behaved and someone described it as dangerous at BSHA and said it was lashing out behind!
This is not just a bit of 'moving around' as some have called it during the presentation and I feel that had it been anyone else they would of been asked to leave. Its not a personal attack on Mr Keen, just a statement of fact!
I also saw the incident with SFAS a few years ago when the horse reared as the rosette was presented and was sent out, the judges were correct to do so, although i do feel for the girl riding him.
I have noticed a lot in in-hand classes especially cobs, that manners dont seem to matter! I to have seen horses dancing on the end of the rope refusing to settle but still being placed over horses that showed a beautiful show at all paces, maybe perhapse it was a better animal but I would of thought you'd also be looking for an animal that would make a good ridden horse/pony and take that into acount? How many of these that spend most of their time on 2 legs will go on to be successful in riddens? not many I wouldnt think!
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EJM
Full Member
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Post by EJM on Oct 14, 2011 15:28:52 GMT
Was just thinking years ago at the RHS charlie and i ended up 3rd in our Novice hack class it was a awful wet day. They pulled in 1st place a nicesmall hack but the little mare just would not stand still the judge was taking along time in choosing her 2nd place meanwhile keeping an eye on 1st in the end she told the steward to ask her to leave, i felt so sad for her but understood straight away why! we ended up place second which i was over the moon about and my boy did not put a foot wrong all morning. So i agree with Hack must have manners but i must feel for her watching HOYs this year.
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Post by specialsparkle3 on Oct 14, 2011 17:15:37 GMT
I don't know much about it but I do see that he doesn't show an awful lot, but when he does he tends to win. As two entirely different judges put it champion at the BSHA show from those that put it up at HOYS it suggests that the horse is a jolly good one as it's pretty much unbeaten going on this years results. Perhaps he only shows under certain judges ( we all have favourite judges we can be pretty sure of don't we? ) |
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Post by workingcob on Oct 14, 2011 18:34:57 GMT
Diplomatically put, ss3
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Post by hedgehopper on Oct 14, 2011 19:21:45 GMT
Where is the common sense? There is sidestepping,and a bit of a wriggle,for which I have lost a class,and there is being a danger to the handler/rider,judges/stewards,and other competitors..am reminded of the nps champs,where I watched the winner of one of the section a's classes try to have a real go at it's handler in the individual trot up,it nearly got loose,and if she'd let go of it,several worried parents were going to pull their ponies out of the class. It was a stallion too!
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Post by pipandwill on Oct 14, 2011 19:48:25 GMT
Im really no expert on hacks, but I thought hacks should have impecable manners, this said, i didt watch the horse, but the ride judge said it rode very well, but should it of been allowed to do what it did, and still be the winner?
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Post by rasaljadi on Oct 14, 2011 20:06:59 GMT
I wonder if it was a amatuer winning the class...would they still have received the winning place.......i dont think so
It really gets me angry when we all pay the same money and there was some lovely well behaved horses in that class, in fact they all went beautifull accept for the winner
though it will never change as we see it all the time.
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Post by pencaedu on Oct 14, 2011 20:48:22 GMT
I also watched the the hack classes & championship.
Mr Keen's trot work was to put it kindly "somewhat untidy".
The horse was poorly behaved in the class, circling repeatedly in the line-up. It was reluctant to take its rosette & picture taking was 'difficult'.
In the championship it did not want to walk between the flowers to accept its award & the rider attempted to take it round the outside of them, but was sent back to go through, which it did on the second attempt. The sash was put on by the rider, but it stood much better then for the picutres, trophies etc.
I agree with the poster who said it looked tucked-up, in fact, in most places we would have been applauding the judges for putting up a 'not overly fat' animal.
To my mind, it should not have won it's class - never mind the championship - but, as we know only too well - the judges' decisions are final!!
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Post by mikesloft1 on Oct 15, 2011 0:12:54 GMT
Handcanter you are so wrong. This discussion is about the horses lack of manners at the time of presentation which lead to a surprising result and is not having a dig at Mr. Keen himself at all. Louise Bell said in H and H the horse in question gave her the ride of a lifetime, hmmm, maybe so but the class is not over until the rosettes are handed out and the class dismissed.
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Post by digital on Oct 15, 2011 3:39:39 GMT
The real problem here is the inconsistency regarding what is acceptable. I believe all the showing societies should have rules to cover situations where animals misbehave during presentations. Many years ago a pony I produced was pulled top at HOYS..yet wouldn't stand when asked to come forward for presentation. The judges sent him out,yet gave the class to the 2nd placed pony who was not asked to come forward,merely stand in line with the others. To me this was totally unaceptable...but is still continuing today.
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Post by specialsparkle3 on Oct 15, 2011 7:38:59 GMT
The real problem here is the inconsistency regarding what is acceptable. I believe all the showing societies should have rules to cover situations where animals misbehave during presentation. Unfortunately the Horse of the Year Show has it's own set of rules and the Societies involved, including the BSHA, have no jurisdiction over what happens there. That is why Judges can judge at the most prominent show of the year when they are not on the relevant panel, or even ( in some classes this year I am led to believe ) on ANY panel at all |
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Post by digital on Oct 15, 2011 8:13:21 GMT
SS3 ..another can of worms! HOYS should get their act together and only use panel judges...totally insulting for exhibitors to be judged at the premier show by " judges" with no experience! The LR/FR was an example with top ponies getting maks below 10 for conformation.
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Post by girly on Oct 15, 2011 15:20:21 GMT
I wonder what the sponsers thought about the whole affair
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Post by digital on Oct 15, 2011 15:31:19 GMT
Heard a rumour that the Topham Barnes,the hack sponsors were considering pulling out!!
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sc
Junior Member
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Post by sc on Oct 15, 2011 20:21:10 GMT
Heard a rumour that the Topham Barnes,the hack sponsors were considering pulling out!! Im sure one of the sponsors will have read this, so perhaps they will answer your question. |
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Post by melin on Nov 28, 2011 19:26:27 GMT
Have resisted up to now in making any comment. Our hack lost her red ribbon at HOYS merely for 5 seconds of not standing still when the whooping and clapping started - so we of course feel quite annoyed when absolute misbehaviour is rewarded!
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Post by busybusy on Nov 29, 2011 10:20:14 GMT
I did not see the hack class or championship in question so feel that I cannot comment!!
However, on a slightly different note perhaps the time has come for the spectator's manners and behaviour to be questioned! Why they feel it is ok to scream, stamp and generally act in a manner that would unsettle most living creatures is totally beyond me.? I do feel that there is a section of the audience (probably unconnected with any of the placed animals) that enjoy watching everyone having to cope with the ensuing chaos caused by their behaviour.
A few years ago a dream came true for us and we won a class at Hoys.....I held my breath until that rosette was pinned onto my jockey.....
The time has come for the announcers to request that spectators show respect for everyone competing and act accordingly....and the trend for people to clap as an individual completes their show in pony classes (thus often unsettling the next pony out) should be stopped IMO!
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Post by heath on Nov 30, 2011 9:18:51 GMT
Couldn t agree more busy busy.Well said!
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Post by dollycorn on Nov 30, 2011 14:16:48 GMT
I agree with Busy Busy i can't understand why people have to whoop and scream at horses,this happened to me at HOYS this year in the Caldene arena. My horse is only 5 and it completely unsettled her which blew any chance of getting placed .Those of us with any sense who have ridden in that situation sit quiet with our hands in our pockets !!!
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Post by Laura&&MackyDee on Dec 11, 2011 17:05:39 GMT
the whole point of a hack in my opinion is for it to be well mannered and go foot perfect however even in other classes such as the workers which i do the people screama nd go mad when galoping this sends smaller ponies crazy leaving ponys unstoppable. the whoopiongg and screamin is acceptable if it is a major championship but not in all evenigns its stupid!
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Post by busybusy on Dec 12, 2011 11:35:18 GMT
Scottymac I am afraid that I must disagree with you. I feel that "whooping and screaming" is unacceptable at any competition involving animals. We too do workers.....and have whilst the ponies are used to the sounds of the huntsman/horn and hounds, they cannot cope with the sort of cheering that one may expect at a rock concert! It is not just a question of them not having manners....merely being terrified!
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Post by CarolineNelson on Dec 12, 2011 17:49:29 GMT
Apart from basic lack of decorum (natural applause is one thing, stupid crazy hysteria is a different ball-game) the other major difference with most of today's indoor arenas is that at Wembley Empire Pool, the bulk of the audience were well back, away from the horses.
The presentations, the sashes and the intermidable photo-shoots, all take longer.
But, we expect show animals to cope as they did then - and with considerably more hype and racket.
That is not, before you bite me, condoning, praising or criticising the 2011 result.
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guestp
Junior Member
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Post by guestp on Dec 12, 2011 18:07:37 GMT
i haven't read all the replies to this but i just wanted to remind people of the hack/RH SFAS class a few years ago. It was the year Jordan Cook went SFAS champion, He was originally in second place and only went up to win when the original winning horse found the atmosphere a bit too much. It was dancing in the line whilst waiting for the results and then dancing in the line up when called forward. So much so that they wouldn't give the rosette and swapped the placings. i felt very sorry for the rider - to be so close yet so far! Esp when the new winner went on to be champion. Anyway, i digress, but the point i am trying to make is that the bright lights, noise and atmosphere of HOYS isn't always forgiven!
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Post by dusteragain on Dec 13, 2011 20:40:18 GMT
Horses' hearing is many many times more sensitive than humans' hearing. The atmosphere at these modern shows is totally ridiculous. Admittedly a few horses are de-sensitized (I have a brilliiant horse for this) but it is crazy to remove awards from the nicest, most talented horses because they cannot cope.
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kayjayem
Happy to help....a lot
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Post by kayjayem on Dec 13, 2011 22:15:30 GMT
Dusteragain I see your point but if you know your horse can't cope with the atmosphere is it fair to put it in that position, to cause it distress, no matter how talented it. The ability to cope should be part of the package.
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Post by mamanag on Dec 20, 2011 17:33:16 GMT
its a fine line, presence or manners and if you get both well lucky you, the animal in question appears to be very finely bred(sensitive??) and is a beautiful animal (we were competing on the same day and were in arms bredth outside the warm up arena)the animal has to have that bit of presence to shine but for a hacks, a mannerly way of going and especially standing up in the line should most definately be taken into account when placing; to add it was a bit jiggy outside and i did think to myself rather him than me when in the arena didnt watch the show so cant comment on that but it did look like a winner ...i think the gripe is more with the consistency of judging and for me that goes right across the board not just with hacks
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Post by rabbit on Dec 20, 2011 17:49:05 GMT
i think also there was a feeling that the hack in question wasn't a worthy winner regardless of manners  i think that there is a great difference between a correct straight forward collected hack canter and a definite 4 beat spider, climbing canter) . also although 'type' plays a great part in the class, one must not forget that correct confirmation also should play a great part as well. sometimes 'flash' is mistaken for greatness! a hack should have thoroughbred characteristics, but this should not forsake total correctness in confirmation, of course manners are also VERY important , but the overall package should be the nearest to perfection of type, manners, way of going and confirmation, and in my opinion, all 4 are equally important. |
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Post by mamanag on Dec 20, 2011 20:35:45 GMT
funny minkara although i thought the animal was stunning, my daughter echoed your sentiments
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i think that there is a great difference between a correct straight forward collected hack canter and a definite 4 beat spider, climbing canter) . also although 'type' plays a great part in the class, one must not forget that correct confirmation also should play a great part as well. sometimes 'flash' is mistaken for greatness! a hack should have thoroughbred characteristics, but this should not forsake total correctness in confirmation, of course manners are also VERY important , but the overall package should be the nearest to perfection of type, manners, way of going and confirmation, and in my opinion, all 4 are equally important.