Changes to NPS M&M WHP - 2012

[melody]

NPS have posted changes to the NPS M&MWHP Area 25 and RIHS classes.

The Highlands . Fells and Dales will now jump the middle height course regardless of what height they are. If they are over 138cm they will still compete within the large height class but jump first.

www.nationalponysociety.org.uk/index.php/cms/RIHSQualifiers



Good news for the Hairies!

[Guestless]

Sounds as if it may make the classes a bit clumsy for judging, but good on the NPS for giving it a go. Hopefully we will see more of the hairies coming forward now.

[dancer]

I don't have my rule book handy - can someone tell me what height will they be jumping in the Area 25 qualifier now & what height will they jump in the Novice workers?

[mac]

It looks like the new rule is only for RIHS and NPS area 25 champs qualifiers. The middle heights jump 85cm for these. I think that's the same height as the large height novices. I assume that all other classes will stay with the sections as before.

Anyway, this seems like a great idea and better than introducing a whole new class as far as getting through the classes. Now lets see if the other societys will follow suit?

[dancer]

That's what I thought Mac - they will jump the same height in the Novices as they will in the Open's now?!

[titch]

Think it will cause a few problems but you don't know until you give it a go. I don't think it is fair to put them in with the normal class for the large m&m's why just not make it a separate class all together!!

[bigmama]

This is FANTASTIC news and something we have wished for for ages!

Well done to the NPS for ringing in the changes and good louck to everyone competing their hairies in the M&M workers in 2012


(photo j.peg with kind permission of D Gaskell )

[09rebel99]

Would have been great for me if my boy was still judging as he's an overheight dales at 15hh nearly lol!
Hope it works out for them so more follow on :-)

[busybusy]

There will have to be some guidance on course walking! Will those rider's of the bigger ponies jumping the 85 cms course have to walk the course with the middles? Will those tackling the bigger courses walk the smaller course? Please don't stop the large class mid way for a second course walk!!
Whilst this is probably a good move, I feel that this does give the ponies jumping a smaller course an advantage and feel they should have made a separate class (although I realise this would be a logistical nightmare for show organisers). After all there are many connemaras/nf and D's in the large section who just measure over 138 cms who find the larger course a big ask and would also be jumping at their limits!

[dizzeerascal]

I am a little confused by all this does it now mean that a H/F/D that exceeds 138cms will only ever jump one height of fence for it's entire career regardless of which class it enters (ie novice height) Or will the intermediate qualifier now be bigger for these ponies than their RI & area 25 qualifier??? There will definitely need to be another course walk for those jumping the larger height fences as we see it week in week out where a course can drastically change when put up, fences & lines can need riding completly differently once they go up if u are paying £30 plus to enter an RI qualifier how can they not allow you to walk the course you are going to have to jump?? I also think there needs to be guidance in relation to the distances in combinations as a true one striding double for the H/F/D will be impossible for the other ponies to jump when the fences are raised unless the distance between the two is altered which is another reason why the course will need to be walked at the larger height. Was this rule change ever put forward to members as a proposal as this is the first I have heard about it??? Personally I think it would make more sense if perhaps these ponies jumped 85cms in novice, 90cms in intermediate & 95cms in the RI & area 25 otherwise there appears to be no progression from one to the other, & this would still give them a fairer chance in the open classes

[GaynorStones]

I do agree Fiona it is confusing. Jumping higher to qualify for intermediate than RIs. I do think though that it was about time something was done to make it fairer for the heavy harries but then you have to ask what about shetlands and 11hand welsh As and what about 14hands against 15hand Ds!!!

[whp94]

NPS have done this for H/F/D but surely something needs to be done for the Shetlands? Also the exmoor and dartmoors that are just over 122cm who have to jump the 138cm height?
Maybe they should change the heights to 128cm, 138cm and 148cm, then let the Shetlands jump a smaller height but to be judged in with the 128cm section. Then keep how NPS have changed it for the H/F/D perhaps?

[jackiewharton]

Nov 30, 2011 17:05:01 GMT whp94 said:

Also the exmoor and dartmoors that are just over 122cm who have to jump the 138cm height?

Absolutely. Our 126cm Exmoor will now be expected to jump the same fences as an over 138cms H/F/D .

[prm]

I dont agree with this at all they need to put the middle heigt up for the B's and Conny's but then haveing the highland fells and dale in the same height as the novice just doesnt make any sense and there not the only breed whhich struggles with it as stated by whp94 the exmoors and shetlands struggle too so there really needs to be a complete change.

[GaynorStones]

Ment to say hairies not harries!!!

[bigmama]

Nov 30, 2011 17:20:58 GMT jackiewharton said:

Nov 30, 2011 17:05:01 GMT whp94 said:

Also the exmoor and dartmoors that are just over 122cm who have to jump the 138cm height?

Absolutely. Our 126cm Exmoor will now be expected to jump the same fences as an over 138cms H/F/D .

... but they wont be judged in the same class

[Guestless]

Having given this a bit more thought, I'm not sure about it - is it really fair for a 15hh Dales to jump the middle height section and then be judged against a 13.3hh Fell or Dales? I think it would have been better to introduce a new height section and change the splits to 12hh, 13hh, 14hh and over 14hh.

It won't affect me anyway since I don't do RI classes.

[haggismarmite]

It's such a hard one isn't it, there is never a good way to split the heights. We have a 12.2 sect B and wish they would split it up 12.2 not 12hh then 12.2-13.2 etc... as there is a big difference between him and the big boys, but not much difference between him and the 12hh sect A/Dartys etc... our choice to buy a 12.2 as he can do lots of other stuff for us I realise.

How will it effect the time it takes for the mid section to be judged I wonder? I know conformation and show is mostly done in another ring but they'll still have to wait for the larger ones to jump the course before going back in, and there'll be quite a bit of waiting around for the larges who jumped the mid section for the courses to be put up and jumped by the bigger ones? We're new to the M&M workers so I don't know how they work it in the rings logistically.

Good on NPS for listening and trying to find a solution to people's concerns though.

[whp94]

Nov 30, 2011 17:20:58 GMT jackiewharton said:

Nov 30, 2011 17:05:01 GMT whp94 said:

Also the exmoor and dartmoors that are just over 122cm who have to jump the 138cm height?

Absolutely. Our 126cm Exmoor will now be expected to jump the same fences as an over 138cms H/F/D .

My exmoor is also 126cm there's no way she'd ever be able to jump a 138cm RI track as she's just not built to jump that big! Although she loves her jumping.

I think NPS really need to have a sit down and re think it all, if they've helped out the big hairy breeds then why not the exmoors, Shetlands and darties?

[bigmama]

Nov 30, 2011 22:43:21 GMT Guestless said:

Having given this a bit more thought, I'm not sure about it - is it really fair for a 15hh Dales to jump the middle height section and then be judged against a 13.3hh Fell or Dales? I think it would have been better to introduce a new height section and change the splits to 12hh, 13hh, 14hh and over 14hh.

It won't affect me anyway since I don't do RI classes.

Only the same as a 14hds pony being judged against a 15.3 Welsh D which is how it has been for ages

the split you suggest still doesnt address the problem, guestless, as you would still have certain breeds struggling within those height classes .....

why not limit the upper height for the large breeds to 148cms for ALL ponies, thus eliminating huge welsh d's and dales .. after all, an exc 148cms animal is a horse, not a pony ...

[StephWheway]

But then you are counting out ponies who fit there breed standard - more unfair I fear than counting out those that merely can not jump a course at 3ft 3?!

I am struggling with this rule change as, from the outside, it appears that very little thought has been put into it.

I support the idea of making allowances for the heavier breeds - I have competed a highland in these classes and know how difficult it is. Without losing breed characteristics they just can not cope with all the demands a RIHS/HOYS course throws at you when the jumps are 1m.

However, I feel that this new rule change has made allowances for some without thinking of others. To have the over 138cm hairies jump the same height as the under 138cm hairies seems very unfair. Thee are very few competing at top level even in the middle height section so can't understand why some of the heavier breeds get to jump novice height for there whole career whilst others still have to jump above and beyond their capabilities week in week out. There is only 1 Shetland that competes succesfully at top level - this breed should should also be edit from the same allowances. As should the 123cm exmoor, and the 128cm fell pony, etc, etc.

I agree there will always be discrepancies with height - but this is true in any WHP class whether plaited or M&M. I do think the split needs looking at because actually 84cm is really to small for the up to height B's, C's & Connies and it IS unfair against those that are 12.1hh but I just can't see tht allowing a select few ponies jump at Novice height no matter what stage of their career they are it is the solution to the problem?

I believe that the heavier breeds should get to jump a reduced course. however, (and Jackie I'm sure you will agree) it is not so much the height that is the problem, more the distances of doubles and width of jumps COMBINED with the height! I just think having them jump the same as middle height has been an easy way to do it and really it deserved more thought.

[StephWheway]

Please excuse my spelling on the above message - spell check on my phone will be the death of me!?!?!?

[brether]

I agree heavier breeds needed a different course to jump, but not sure if this is the way to do it?

Would it have made more sense for the NPS to raise this issue with its members first (What do we pay are money for?)

Also is it a little unfair starting these rules from now, when there have already been qualifiers jumped for the 2012 final?

Maybe they could have trialled these rules with the Area 25 classes over the summer to see what happens?

[StephWheway]

Totally agree Brether - apparently it was not discussed at AGM or anything?!?

[bigmama]

i do agree with you Steph on your very valid posting and on reflection i have been harsh re. the over 148cms m&m whps but i think removing the upper height limit from Welsh D's and Dales ponies by their breed societies was a big mistake for those breeds and do think that this contributes to the problem of m&m whp classes

There is never going to be an ideal solution to suit everyone but something needed to be done regarding the exc 138cm hairies (and shetland ponies) and altho this might not be the perfect answer, it is a move in the right direction and can always be tweaked in the future

It would be interesting to ask on Horsegossip just how many members have successfully competed a large highland/fell/dales pony in the NPS RIHS M&M WHP exc 138cms qualifiers within the last five years

[jackiewharton]

Nov 30, 2011 22:33:41 GMT bigmama said:

Nov 30, 2011 17:20:58 GMT jackiewharton said:

Absolutely. Our 126cm Exmoor will now be expected to jump the same fences as an over 138cms H/F/D .

... but they wont be judged in the same class

I realise that but it doesn't change the fact that a 123cm pony is now expected to jump the same fences as a plus 138cm. In my mind, workers courses should allow all ponies to showcase their talents regardless of their size.

I regard our 126cm Exmoor as an exceptionally talented jumping pony but 2ft 9 (max height) with a max 2ft 3 spread is , I would say, out of his "comfort" zone and although in open classes it should ask a question, should it be at the limit of expectations for the breed? By comfort zone I mean the sort of course that a talented pony can give a lovely balanced show round.

According to the breed standard, if the breed follows a standard population curve (preferred height range 11.2-12.2 for mares, 11.3 to 12.3 for geldings) half of exmoor mares and three quarters of exmoor geldings/stallions are expected to stand above 122cm. Yet there are hardly any jumping open classes in the middle height section.

[StephWheway]

Totally agree Jackie - something did need to be done.

I just think that the NPS could/should have put it to their members and maybe by doing this would have come up with the perfect solution first time round?

[Steph Basnett]

I agree something had too be done but don't think it's fair as my 137 Highland pony struggles aswell but he'll still have too jump the same height? i really dont think it was thought through well enough!

[elmere]

I think that alot of judges will end up looking more favourably on the ponies that have jumped the larger course, for the larger H/D/F to jump the mid height course isnt exactly showcasing their talent as the smaller versions of the breed already jump that course. Atleast its a change though.

[bigmama]

I think there is another problem facing H/F/D in the open exc 138cm m&m whp classes ~ so far they have been a rarity and so many judges have never judged hairies in these classes and may not know how to mark them .. for eg. jumping our 147cms highland in 2010, one judge remarked 'he doesnt jump like a connemara does he?' ... well maybe that's because he isnt a connemara pony