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Post by elmere on Dec 2, 2011 18:45:45 GMT
I think there is another problem facing H/F/D in the open exc 138cm m&m whp classes ~ so far they have been a rarity and so many judges have never judged hairies in these classes and may not know how to mark them .. for eg. jumping our 147cms highland in 2010, one judge remarked 'he doesnt jump like a connemara does he?' ... well maybe that's because he isnt a connemara pony  Alot judges dont understand them because their style is different and thats the main part of the problem, they are bias against them and really I dont think this new rule will help tbh but we shall see. |
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Post by elmere on Dec 4, 2011 16:10:36 GMT
so if you have a middle height Highland , does this now mean we jump the same height as the small's ? No middles are the same.  |
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Post by titch on Dec 4, 2011 16:13:24 GMT
Really don't understand why they will jump the same height. Think 3ft would be more appropriate
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Post by girly on Dec 5, 2011 7:36:18 GMT
I am amazed that the NPS have introduced this change to the RI class for 2012 . Qualifiers have already taken place. This appears to be a knee-jerk reaction to a vociferous minoriety and with no consultation with other members and competitors. Why on earth didn't they try this at at novice or intermediate level and find out how it would work in practice.
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Post by littlebaba on Dec 5, 2011 18:24:29 GMT
I am made up they have done some thing different as competing my highland in the large workers can be difficult to compete with the more athletic built ponies
They should of done a smaller height for the shetlands but included them in the small height for rosettes, etc and a seperate class for the highlands, fells and dales
If they did 12hds, 13hds, 14hds, 15hds, etc workers for M&M WHP the classes would be jumbled up with all different breeds, for example ponies that are not true to their stamp so I do not think this should be done
What Equifest did this year was spot on with the breed classes which was very successful, but again there would be people complaining with what ever the society does
May be this is some thing for the society to learn from and improve because at least they are trying to cater for everyone which I have been saying they need to do at RIHS and HOYS for a few years now!
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Post by superstar on Dec 6, 2011 19:33:27 GMT
Having spoken to the NPS they have only received votes of confidence in this rule and nothing else. If you have concerns please write to the CEO and voice them otherwise the rule will go ahead.
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Post by vixter on Dec 6, 2011 20:12:57 GMT
I too agree that this is a great step forward for the breeds concerned however it has been ill thought out IMO. In respect of votes of confidence I would like to know who was consulted and voted for this as it would appear that the competitors nor any of those who run the areas were.
Whilst I appreciate that some of the breeds have their limitations in respect of the height and width of fences we must remember that this is a performance class and I do not think it is fair to judge animals in one single class that have jumped different heights of fences.
In addition we only have to look at the issues with marks being added wrong before we start in one class never mind running the jumping dually
The best way forward would have been separate classes and to also ensure other breeds were also catered for i.e. Shetlands, Exmoors.
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Post by sidelined on Dec 6, 2011 21:12:36 GMT
They are moving in the right direction but, it definatley needed more thought..
Maybe they should split the sec d, conn, nf, into there own section, as many of these breeds are out there jumping nationally sj. Having bred both sec d and conn, I know that a talented pony will easily jump 1.20+. So taking into account breed characteristics conn, nf and d's, could have there own section and jump bigger for e,g max 1.05m.
What do people think of the sections below?
EX 138cm sec D, Conn, NF max1.05m
H/F/D at 80,cm with less wide oxers, and more generous distances. Also over 122 exmoor and dartmoor.
under 122cm max 75cm,
middle heights 138cm (sec b,c, conn, nf). 90cm
shetlands 60cm.
I think these sections could work although it seems alot of classes. I feel it would give all the breeds a better chance.
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Post by dizzeerascal on Dec 6, 2011 22:58:27 GMT
I don't think the issue here is with the height of the large breeds class as it currently stands & I can see no benefit to altering the height of the fences for this class it works well as it is. I do agree they should consider an alternative for the heavier breeds but am slightly dubious that there are enough ponies in this category that compete regularly to ensure a high enough overall standard at the finals compared to the current classes, I do appreciate more may take part if there is an alteration to the heights of the fences, but I do think the finals should be a showcase for all of the native breeds. I definitely agree with vixter regarding the lack of consultation with memebers, I for one have never before been a member of a society where members do not get to see proposed rule changes for the coming season before they are implemented & where members are not given the opportunity to voice their views / comments / concerns about any changes so I think nps should definitely look at this going forward & I will be sending a response to nps very soon outlining all of my thoughts & I would urge anyone else who has an opinion good or bad on this rule change to do the same, as was mentioned above if we don't do this how will they ever know what we as members think?  |
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Post by bigmama on Dec 6, 2011 23:23:42 GMT
Similarly, i shall be writing to NPS to congratulate them on this move ... yes, it may not be the perfect solution in everyone's eyes but by jingo a change to allow ponies to show what they can jump WITHIN THEIR BREED TYPE is way overdue
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rural
Junior Member
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Post by rural on Dec 7, 2011 9:12:34 GMT
I too will be voicing my opinion to the NPS, whilst we are delighted for Bigmama and the others who compete heavy breeds in the over 138 section, no consideration has been given to the under 138's, why on earth would anyone expect the smaller of the heavy breeds to jump the same height as larger ponies ?
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Post by bigmama on Dec 7, 2011 12:56:25 GMT
I too will be voicing my opinion to the NPS, whilst we are delighted for Bigmama and the others who compete heavy breeds in the over 138 section, no consideration has been given to the under 138's, why on earth would anyone expect the smaller of the heavy breeds to jump the same height as larger ponies ? agree with you, rural ... all affiliated M&M WHP classes (novice thru to RIHS & HOYS) should now have two jump heights: not exc 122cms (a) lower height for Shetlands (b) regular height for all others not exc 138cms (a) lower height for highland,fell,dales and exmoors (b) regular height for all others not exc 148cms (a) lower height for H/F/D (b) regular height for all others |
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Post by haggismarmite on Dec 7, 2011 13:37:22 GMT
I would love the mid height section to be changed a bit as there is such a large height break from 122 to 138cm, more than the hand difference than in the plaiteds and for the larges. (I'm not explaining it very well am I?!)
Obviously this is because we have a 127cm Sect B ridden by an 11 yr old, but I always wonder why there is such a large mid section. I would love it to be the same as the junior M&M WHP at 128cm and under and then have an a) and b) section within that to allow the shetlands to jump a slightly smaller course.
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Post by littlebaba on Dec 7, 2011 15:13:08 GMT
As someone has said they dont know if there would be enough ponies to support the classes....well may be people would be more encouraged to have a go if the heights where changed....as they have done! Even shown by the entries at Equifest in the split heights lots of people having a go!
People don't bother having a go at the rihs and hoys because competing against connies and welsh section d they are more built for it! Hairies can jump but have different style which should be taught to the judges as they might want every pony to jump the same which they can't! I have even been told this by a judge before that my Highland should jump more like a connie....but I am not going to push him like that and ruin him....however there are a few judges that do understand which is good
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Post by elmere on Dec 8, 2011 20:44:16 GMT
I too will be voicing my opinion to the NPS, whilst we are delighted for Bigmama and the others who compete heavy breeds in the over 138 section, no consideration has been given to the under 138's, why on earth would anyone expect the smaller of the heavy breeds to jump the same height as larger ponies ? Please dont be complaining about the 138's I would hate to see that change, that height is perfect for that size of pony no matter the breed. |
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Post by jump4joy on Dec 8, 2011 23:25:37 GMT
Everyone has their own take on the M & M WHP system, i would like to add mine, whether people see my point of view or not, my argument is... we can all agree that there is a huge difference in way of going between a 123 sec b, exmoor, full up 138 sec c, and now am i right in understanding that over 138 H/F/D are all to jump the 138 height section then either go to or stay in their own height section to be judged on the flat??? ...If that is the case then why not judge the sections like the mixed height classes only get the breed societies to stipulate a specific height to be jumped representing their breed i.e. specific height for shetties, A's etc and so on, there will always be a cross section of height in each breed but it is about a good example, but then after every pony has jumped their set jump height, go to their normal height catagory i.e.128/138/over 138 to be judged as normal on the flat..if the breed societies stipulate the height to be jumped in accordance with the breed type what would be the the problem?  ?? You would still have your small, med and large winners but a real chance for the hairy breeds to shine through as they do in the mixed height classes but only if they are good enough! I for one would not mind being beaten by a pony that was a good example of the breed type, went in the correct way and jumped a fluent, mannerly round over the specified jump height and in accordance with how that particular breed should go. It would play to the strenghts and showcase the breed qualities and make the judges sit back and take note of how the breeds differ in their way of jumping and mark accordingly, this is a M & M WHP jumping class, not to see how high the pony jumps but to see how it jumps within the breed criteria i.e Connies, B's, D's are more athletic than a Shetland, Highland etc The judges would then be marking against a standard, a standard set by the breed society. Hence, whatever breed hairy or not it will increase the quality and enhance the standards of each breed. At the end of the day, isn't that what we want? |
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Post by jump4joy on Dec 9, 2011 0:00:55 GMT
I feel very passionately about this..A small add on...it does not matter, what breed or how high a pony jumps...if it does not jump well, mannerly and adhere to breed specification..please someone tell me 'what is the point of the class'??...just go show jumping/eventing (nothing wrong with show jumping/eventing some fantastice M & M's are at the top in these spheres and we've evented and S/J our M & M's over the years) the point i am trying to make is..this is a issue all breeds face..M & M WHP classes are probably the most popular classes on the showing circuit and the societies should be looking to tighten and increase the standards not lower them by reducing some breeds down a height to jump, give them all their own specific height to jump!
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Post by elmere on Dec 9, 2011 23:44:49 GMT
Yes elmere I will most definitely voice my opinion, to the NPS,BSPS and NCPA, at the end of the day it is only my opinion. I have no problem with the heights/widths of any affiliated M&M worker tracks in novice, junior M&M's ,restricted ,conf novice or intermediate M&M. but the RI and the area 25 quals are beyond the comfort zone of 95% of all 133-138 Fells and Highlands, My wee chunky man would attempt these tracks , as he is a willing chap who always tries 100% for us, but as a responsible caring owner,I will not ask anything that would compromise the ponies wellbeing, how much pressure is on a heavy breeds joints on take off and landing at such heights? So be it if Middle height qualifiers, stay the same for all breeds then this will exclude us from having a go,my worry is this latest rule change for the over 138's which I applaude,may set a precedence for the other societies/qualifiers, so there may well be an absence of middle height heavy hairy ponies at the major championships. I am N OT suggesting for one moment the under 138's jump the same as the 122's I feel 79cm is a fair and testing height for these ponies, without as rightly said by jump for joy, loosing the all important style and performance and being mindful of the ponies welfare Half of mine couldnt jump the open courses but I dont expect them to put the fences down just so that they can, some ponies just arent made for it, you cant just use the breed as an excuse. |
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Post by littlebaba on Dec 9, 2011 23:46:58 GMT
I am glad to see jump4joys comments....I agree with what you are saying but then it is going to get a bit complicated maybe?
It does not give everyone a chance and HOYS even saw this with the Highlands in the ridden so they did the split qualifiers for them....which was successful this year
Rural I agree with what you are saying totally! But the same with the large hairy ponies as well and yeh because the hairy ponies are not built to jump but they will have a good go at them and show them how it is done
What the NCPA have done is very good....small section, middle section, highland, fells, dales section, large section....this is simple and would get a lot less complaints!
I just hope HOYS are next with their 2012 rules!!!! PLEASE HAVE HOYS SPLIT WORKERS FOR THE HAIRY PONIES!!!!
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Post by littlebaba on Dec 9, 2011 23:48:59 GMT
Yeh but the thing is elmere people would complain about the height of the jumps....my highland that does the large height copes very well with the height of the jumps but the societies want to encourage more people to compete in the classes!
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Post by elmere on Dec 10, 2011 0:02:51 GMT
Yeh but the thing is elmere people would complain about the height of the jumps....my highland that does the large height copes very well with the height of the jumps but the societies want to encourage more people to compete in the classes! Yes exactly Hector jumps them fine, do you not think it is more a case of people choosing different breeds to do the workers with rather than the fact they cant jump, when someones looking for pony for the large heights they usually look for a connie or sec d and the large highlands are usually bought for the flats. I think the reason that there are more Highlands in the middle height is because the smaller Highlands wouldnt do as well in the flats against the larger ones so they try something new and it works. I bet if you got the weight off some of the larger Highlands and tried jumping the workers with them half of them could actually do it, but how many actually try?! Ive thought it through and I think its peoples judgement of them thats the problem not the size of the fences. |
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Post by frankie1 on Dec 10, 2011 8:33:33 GMT
I have a section B at who measures 124 ! I know what she measures as she has a height cert as was a SHP before but she is tiny in the middles, actually there are a few bigger than her in the smalls. As she is only just starting have considered putting her in the 122 class. Totally agree that there needs to be something done, esp with the Shetlands and 138 plus but don't forget about the middles. I'm sure there would be enough people to support another split.
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Post by littlebaba on Dec 11, 2011 12:20:29 GMT
Yeh but the thing is elmere people would complain about the height of the jumps....my highland that does the large height copes very well with the height of the jumps but the societies want to encourage more people to compete in the classes! Yes exactly Hector jumps them fine, do you not think it is more a case of people choosing different breeds to do the workers with rather than the fact they cant jump, when someones looking for pony for the large heights they usually look for a connie or sec d and the large highlands are usually bought for the flats. I think the reason that there are more Highlands in the middle height is because the smaller Highlands wouldnt do as well in the flats against the larger ones so they try something new and it works. I bet if you got the weight off some of the larger Highlands and tried jumping the workers with them half of them could actually do it, but how many actually try?! Ive thought it through and I think its peoples judgement of them thats the problem not the size of the fences. I agree people judge them like when I have taken Hector and won the workers people are like wow and I am like well he has a go and tries his best and he likes it so why not but a lot of people would try if the jumps where lower....I agree with smaller highlands doing the workers because they do not fit in with the correct breed type It is still hard to compete again the connies and welsh section d ponies and I agree people just go straight for them to do the workers as they know that they are built more athletic |
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Post by bigmama on Dec 11, 2011 12:45:22 GMT
jump4joy i love and agree with your ideas
elmere ... Hector has only competed in one BSPS Open heritage workers class and we were thrilled when he jumped a superb clear, won and was reserve champ .... this was on the excellent outdoor surface @ Myerscough last spring and we would not dream of jumping him over an open course on grass during the summer months unless there had been plenty of rain and the ground was soft thus making a softer landing and less jarring for such a heavy breed
Now then, the RIHS and Hoys exc 148cms courses have up to now been higher and wider again and generally on grass so the height of the jumps IS a major factor for the heavy breeds ... well it is for us as we want to make sure our highland is happy and comfortable when jumping and we wouldnt compromise this for the sake of our own aspirations
As for choosing a different breed for the jumping job, we have successfully workered two welsh a's, a dartmoor, two welsh c's and a connemara and when we bought our highland, it was for ridden/flat classes which he also does well in and it was only to give him something fresh to do during his schooling that my daughter found he took to jumping like a duck to water
Now for some more great news! At the NCPA Spring Spectacular Show 2012, the highlands, fells and dales have their own working hunter class .. brilliant! Thank you NCPA and come on everyone, let's give this show our support
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Post by magpie on Mar 7, 2012 16:58:18 GMT
I know it is only early on in the season, but at the BSPS Area 9b show, there were only two hairies jumping. One was the reigning HOYS champ, a fell who is already under 138cms and another that i dont know of, it was a bay but i was sitting higher up so not sure on the height, it was going fairly well until the water (which caught almost 2/3 of the class out).
I am disappointed to see that people riding hairies who can jump are not having a go at this class (yes i know it costs a lot to enter). I would love to have a go around the class on my 14hh highland, he loves jumping and I have previously attempted to jump at the over 138cms height, but the spreads were massive. However, on viewing the course for the 138cms, i am confident we could easily jump round (would need to practise the water though!)
The only trouble is, I live in Cornwall and am in my final year of uni so only have the option of doing 1 (might as well spend the loan of something useful!!!) due to petrol, entry fees etc. I am planning on going to the NPS Area 29, which i believe is now being held at Malvern.
I do wonder if we will see an increase in hairies attempting the qualifier as the season progresses, as i said, it is only march! Good luck to those who do and I really hope to see some good results!
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Post by titch on Mar 7, 2012 17:02:37 GMT
Hope you do well Magpie!!! Always a very technical course at 3 counties with not many clears. Make sure you practice funny turns as normally through the trees they have some tricky twisty bits.
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Post by magpie on Mar 7, 2012 17:10:40 GMT
Thanks Titch, not jumped there before - its only a possibility that I might go, would like to go to the one at Summerhouse in Gloucs next month but dont think he would be at all fit enough!
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?? You would still have your small, med and large winners but a real chance for the hairy breeds to shine through as they do in the mixed height classes but only if they are good enough! I for one would not mind being beaten by a pony that was a good example of the breed type, went in the correct way and jumped a fluent, mannerly round over the specified jump height and in accordance with how that particular breed should go. It would play to the strenghts and showcase the breed qualities and make the judges sit back and take note of how the breeds differ in their way of jumping and mark accordingly, this is a M & M WHP jumping class, not to see how high the pony jumps but to see how it jumps within the breed criteria i.e Connies, B's, D's are more athletic than a Shetland, Highland etc The judges would then be marking against a standard, a standard set by the breed society. Hence, whatever breed hairy or not it will increase the quality and enhance the standards of each breed. At the end of the day, isn't that what we want? 
