'Lifting' head position?

[snowflake]

We have a pony who needs 'lifting up' a bit & tried all snaffles. Someone suggested the American Gag, but we know they are often used for more leverage. The pony can be slightly strong at times out hacking (but totally controllable in a school, even in a snaffle!), so it's more 'lifting up' we need rather than strength & don't want to put something horrendous in her mouth! So we think the American Gag would not be necessary at all. What do you think? We did think of a tom thumb, but thought that might still keep her head carriage low. Any ideas? We hack her a lot & even when she's cantering out in the open she still goes quite low - I think it's her natural way of going but we just want her to stop going quite so low! She's not pulling & certainly not bucking! We don't want to put something nasty in her mouth at all, just get her head up a little!

Also we have had her teeth, tack, back & saddle checked & she's perfectly fine! Thanks.

[sageandonion]

It is a schooling issue and depending on conformation some need more schooling up than others. It is also easily caused by gag type bits, hence the wilkie being one of my pet hates and the pulling in of the head without engaging the behind. Anyway, whatever the cause, its back to the basics in a snaffle in the school. For hacking if pony is strong I would try a loose ring waterford or possibly the old fashioned kimblewick, of which the jointed may be best. Avoid gag or poll action bits at all times.

Whoever advised an american gag is totally misunderstanding you and why would you think of a Tom Thumb?

[snowflake]

We thought of the Tom thumb because someone reccommened the American Gag - hence they are the same type of bit, & that's why we were concerned about putting her in the american gag. Will try & keep her in her loose ring snaffle & get a few more lessons. I think she used to be worked low on a Pessoa before so that could be why.

[iluvmyponies]

Waterford Loose Ring Snaffle

[ilovebuckroox]

Just wrote you a lovely reply, accidently pressed my 'back' button and poof.. back a page. Never mind!

Basically a tom thumb would deffinately not help her 'lift up' as it has poll pressure which would do the total opposite. So stay away from ANYTHING will poll pressure. Try a loose ring waterford, or a simple loose ring snaffle. You could also try a loose ring (alway best incase she leans) with different metal mouthpeices.

Exercise wise, lots of transitions to get her on hocks which should then lift her front end. Also lots of lateral work, and things like shoulder in.
You need to get her hocks working hard beneath her before you can even think about getting her front end up.

She is also a welsh C (You are on about Fran? But even so, if it is Model she is still a welsh so this still applies!) and they do have a tendency to have a low carridge, which I personally find very noticable in the ring too. So you aren't alone! Buck is the same, I use a loose ring on him now and (try to anyway) do lateral work with him to get his hocks working.. which he isn't a fan of, which is why I prefer to use transitions with him.

[snowflake]

Emailed one do my instructor & she advised having a few more lessons in my Eggbutt. Sorry but not a fan of the Waterfords we had a SP who became extremely frightened of them took us a year to get her over it. But hey ho I'll try it if a few more lessons don't sort the problem. S&O she suggested going back to basics too, hence the Eggbutt.

[snowflake]

Jan 26, 2012 20:18:25 GMT ilovebuckroox said:

Just wrote you a lovely reply, accidently pressed my 'back' button and poof.. back a page. Never mind!

Basically a tom thumb would deffinately not help her 'lift up' as it has poll pressure which would do the total opposite. So stay away from ANYTHING will poll pressure. Try a loose ring waterford, or a simple loose ring snaffle. You could also try a loose ring (alway best incase she leans) with different metal mouthpeices.

Exercise wise, lots of transitions to get her on hocks which should then lift her front end. Also lots of lateral work, and things like shoulder in.
You need to get her hocks working hard beneath her before you can even think about getting her front end up.

She is also a welsh C (You are on about Fran? But even so, if it is Model she is still a welsh so this still applies!) and they do have a tendency to have a low carridge, which I personally find very noticable in the ring too. So you aren't alone! Buck is the same, I use a loose ring on him now and (try to anyway) do lateral work with him to get his hocks working.. which he isn't a fan of, which is why I prefer to use transitions with him.

Thanks, well Re the American Gag, I questioned the poll pressure (which as you said brings their heads into a lower head position) but she said it was control I needed. Hmmm! Good thing I emailed my instructor! Yeah I'm on about Fran! She really uses her back end - our farrier said that she must use her back end so much as her back hooves were worn down more than her front! I'm going back to basics & to my good old Eggbutt, then may try the waterford or kimblewick after if I get my Mum past her phobia of Waterfords! ;D

[ilovebuckroox]

But if it is Model or Fran they will have a much fleshier tongue so they shouldn't mind the Waterford, unlike if it was your 12.2sp then I can imagine that he would have found it quite uncomfortable to say the least!

[GinaGeo]

I agree with S&O that it's a schooling issue that needs to be adressed. And that some horse's conformationally find lifting harder. My connie finds it difficult, big shoulders, slightly thick through the jugular and dropping on to his forehand is so so much easier...

Lateral work and Transitions are my friend. I find after 30mins of riding shoulder in, leg yield, lots of transitions and moving him round the school he really lightens up and lifts.

Another exercise I find useful is to ride square corners, where the front end moves around the backend, so sitting on the quarters. This enages their backend and encourages the lift you're after. You can work it up to turn on the haunches, where they have to sit right down and take most of their weight on their back legs. This is an exercise my horse always found difficult, because he had to sit right back.

A gag will have a lifting action, but won't help the situation in the long run. Schooling is far more effective.

I have used Kimblewick's and Waterford's in the past for hacking, good alternative suggestions. Although now he just goes in a loose ring snaffle for all disciplines hapilly.

[ilovebuckroox]

Jan 26, 2012 20:24:23 GMT snowflake said:

Jan 26, 2012 20:18:25 GMT ilovebuckroox said:

Just wrote you a lovely reply, accidently pressed my 'back' button and poof.. back a page. Never mind!

Basically a tom thumb would deffinately not help her 'lift up' as it has poll pressure which would do the total opposite. So stay away from ANYTHING will poll pressure. Try a loose ring waterford, or a simple loose ring snaffle. You could also try a loose ring (alway best incase she leans) with different metal mouthpeices.

Exercise wise, lots of transitions to get her on hocks which should then lift her front end. Also lots of lateral work, and things like shoulder in.
You need to get her hocks working hard beneath her before you can even think about getting her front end up.

She is also a welsh C (You are on about Fran? But even so, if it is Model she is still a welsh so this still applies!) and they do have a tendency to have a low carridge, which I personally find very noticable in the ring too. So you aren't alone! Buck is the same, I use a loose ring on him now and (try to anyway) do lateral work with him to get his hocks working.. which he isn't a fan of, which is why I prefer to use transitions with him.

Thanks, well Re the American Gag, I questioned the poll pressure (which as you said brings their heads into a lower head position) but she said it was control I needed. Hmmm! Good thing I emailed my instructor! Yeah I'm on about Fran! She really uses her back end - our farrier said that she must use her back end so much as her back hooves were worn down more than her front! I'm going back to basics & to my good old Eggbutt, then may try the waterford or kimblewick after if I get my Mum past her phobia of Waterfords! ;D

Haha, silly women! Yeah you can see from the videos she uses her back end well, but I would deffinately still try lots of transitions (trot to halt is a good one, using your seat only!). Try a loose ring rather than an eggbutt, then she can't possibly (in theory) have anything to lean on. When doing the transitions I bet she finds it harder in a loose ring than an eggbutt.. Honestly, I've been there with Buck & he's a different, lighter, more 'up' pony!

[snowflake]

Thanks Emma & GinaGeo will try those exercises. Making note of them all now, many thanks.

[sageandonion]

Just want to say snowflake, you must be in this for the long haul and it can be frustrating so be prepared to be patient and chip away. Make absolutely sure you keep his weight down too for, as GG says, it is a lifting and lightening of the shoulders that you are looking for, not a lifting of the head. Lots of ponies, particularly natives, will carry fat on their shoulders and that pad just behind the shoulder and that makes matters of course much more difficult for you are battling the bulge.

Some (and I own one) are prone to fat on the shoulder even when clinically not overweight. For those, you actually have to get them a little bit under the norm weight to shift that poundage.

Rest assured that, once he has the idea which will take quite a while, he will come on in leaps and bounds though it will probably always be his challenging area and a work in progress.

[sarahp]

Daughter's dressage trainer always describe what you are trying to do as moving them from front wheel drive to four wheel drive to rear wheel drive! Another useful exercise is to ride circles, spiraling them in and out, so making bigger and smaller circles, but without losing the correct bend.

As a Welsh A and D breeder, I'm not at all happy about your blanket comment of them having a tendency to have a low carriage ilbr - I believe it's more a question of the individual basic conformation, as in the positioning of head on neck and neck out of the shoulder, and their schooling.

[snowflake]

Thank you S&O & sarahp. When she first came, she did not bend the best as she hadn't been schooled much. She used to lean down & know she doesn't as much, that took her a good few months to get her out of it. She was only ridden in a ported pelham before we had her. We rode her in the Eggbutt which she leaned on at first & still did a little. We had to do a lot of schooling to get her out of leaning & being strong in the mouth, she's over that now, so hopefully with as much work her head position will lift a little.

Re what you said of them carrying fat on their shoulders S&O, yes does carry a bit if fat on her shoulders even when she is fit & our vet said she was "just right". She does work better in the summer after work, schooling & hacking, so will just keep schooling her. I've got a Intro B Dressage in February, & I'm hoping that will help her - will be my first Dressage test so I'm hoping it will teach us a few things & that we'll get a lot of constructive criticism in which will help us in showing too.

Just to give you an idea of her build & how she goes this is her - a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/318666_192152617523137_100001852011735_429065_1937946918_n.jpg
In this picture we know the jockey needs to lift her hands a little & could drive her back end a little more...

Also I asked my instructor about the Waterford Snaffle & she said it's up to me - she thinks if she's strong out hacking it may help, but in the long run, I just need to keep schooling her - sarahp she also mentioned square corners too.

Many thanks & will keep schooling, & persisting with it!

[sarahp]

If it was me I'd school in a snaffle and only use something stronger for control and hence safety when necessary.

It was GinaGeo who mentioned square corners, not me, although I've ridden lots of them in my time too!

She looks much better than I expected in the photo, going on what you said, and tracking up well, but that doesn't always reflect what she feels like to ride. She should be in self carriage holding her own head (and shoulders) up so that if you drop the contact she will stay in the outline she's in and not collapse in a heap - which is why the give and retake the rein is put in dressage tests, to check this.

Keep up with the schooling, you'll get there - and remember you can school on hacks too.

[snowflake]

Sorry Sarahp wrong person. Thank you yes we have no school atm so I have to school out hacking, or hire schools/have lessons. Thank you will keep practising.

[ilovebuckroox]

Jan 27, 2012 8:16:09 GMT sarahp said:

As a Welsh A and D breeder, I'm not at all happy about your blanket comment of them having a tendency to have a low carriage ilbr - I believe it's more a question of the individual basic conformation, as in the positioning of head on neck and neck out of the shoulder, and their schooling.

It wasn't a blanket comment, but as you say it is due to the conformation. And there are quite a few (not all) carrying the extra weight in the ring. And as mentioned above, they often carry it on the shoulder making them heavier in front. Which is seen on a lot of Sec C's mainly nowadays. So no, it was not a blanket cover of all natives, but as owning a well bred Sec C I know it can be hard to keep that fat of their shoulders and keeping their front end (not head) up, rather than wanting to have it in that slightly lower position. I did not mean to offend anyone. But as people say, on here you need to take posts with a pinch of salt.

[vikki85]

I'd agree with a lot of the coments and say it's schooling that needs to be addressed, and that her confirmation and natural way of going should also be taken into account.

The more her back end is engaged the more 'uphill' (lightening of neck and shoulders) she will become, and the correct head carriage also comes with this. Some horses and ponies are naturally uphill and acheive this with comparatively little schooling, others take quite a bit of work (my own Sec D included!).

Transitions and lateral work are the best things for this. Though she might have quite an active back end as your farrier said (alot of welshies do) she might not actually be carrying her weight properly on her back end, which is what you want to achieve in order to lighten her shoulders and lift her head.

[sarahp]

"She is also a welsh C (You are on about Fran? But even so, if it is Model she is still a welsh so this still applies!) and they do have a tendency to have a low carridge"

I took it as a blanket comment on all Welsh, rather than all natives, and in my opinion not justified, you just need to look for one with a correct head and neck set, there are plenty around.

I very much agree with vikki85 about the schooling side.

[ilovebuckroox]

I know there are plenty around, but if you read my above post you should notice I say about (a) their conformation, like you said and (b) there are quite a few (I'm talking about the county level classes here) carrying that extra weight. Which there has been alot of debate over recently. That is where my comment was coming from. And 'Model' is a welsh, hence why I say welsh rather than native. Sorry if this slightly confused you.
And the first comment should have also said 'lower carriage', only just noticed.

[snowflake]

Thanks vikki85 will take your advice - understand what you mean about using the back end but not carrying the weight on the back end properly. Will keep practising & working on it.

[sageandonion]

Your pony is lovely.

[snowflake]

Thank you very much S&O.